W111 rear window disassembly

[wwheeler]

I just removed the guts on my '68 W111 rear window. Not sure if anyone has done this job here. It seems more difficult than it is and only because you don't have any idea how it is put together. There is very little room to see the mechanism and determine the best course of action. I will post a tear down list here soon, but wanted to first to emphasize how important this job is.

If your rear quarter windows are slow and jerky going up, I would HIGHLY advise you do this. Because this mechanism is subject to water coming off the quarter window, any lubrication is long gone and the joints get rusty. My front regulators in contrast were in much better condition than these. Plus the rear mechanism has much more drag than the front and there is not a clock spring to assist like the front has. Add it all up, and the rear motors have a tough assignment. And if you have not noticed, electric window parts are getting hard to find.

Wallace 

[lpeterssen]

Any help on this matter will be very appreciated. I have disassembled those mechanism in some w111 and there are different versions depending on how old the car is.

[wwheeler]

I thought all of the W111 coupe and cabs have the same window glass and guide plate. The guide plate is the large steel plate attached the inside of the quarter panel and has the guide slots. I would think the only difference is if it has power or manual windows (regulator). I do know the motor and gear drive are different up to '69 from the post '69. The later motors have a one piece motor gear drive housing and use two supply wires. The earlier motors are separate from the gear drive and are connected by a rubber coupling. They have three supply wires.

Do you know of differences other than that?

[lpeterssen]

Dear Wallace

No, not all have the same type of mechanism guiding the rear windows.  I will try to get some pictures for you from a very early example w111-220se coupe from year 61’, serial number 0000001 which is on my warehouse and also from later w111-220se from year 64.

Best regards
L.peterssen

[wwheeler]

That would be great and thank you. Always like to learn.

I was noticing on the data card that the 0000001 number is the motor number, not the VIN (or Fahrgestell nr). My data card has the "Fahrgestell" in a different location, but it is my VIN. So I would think the VIN, or chassis number, is 013240? Anyway, just curious.

[lpeterssen]

Dear Wallace

That was exactly the intention to make you curious about 0000001. I wrote to the MB classic center and they confirmed that as w111 chasis counting number for sedans and coupes was the same series number, there is no coupe in the world with a VIN 0001, but there is a sedan w111 with VIN 001 as they were released first on the production line.  W111 sedan production started in 1959, so by year 1961 VIN numbers advanced so much that first released w111-220seb coupes released to the press in Feb 1961 could not have a VIN equal to 001.

http://www.heckflosse.nl/220seccv.htm

So the conclusion is that this particular car, which has engine no. 0001 should have been the first one in the production of the w111-220seb coupes.   The M127 engine which still is sitting in the car in beautiful original condition fully mechanically overhauled should have something different from the M127 engine used on the fuel injected sedans so that Mercedes Benz decided to start its numbering in 00001.

This is still an ongoing investigation.  My personal thoughts is that this car should be in a museum someday.


The other thing that makes me think this is one of the first ones is that the MB DATA sheets indicated Production number 000025.

So it could be that this was the real first one for the sale market, the previous 24 units were the test or show cars.

Any comments or suggestions are welcomed.

Regards
L.peterssen

[wwheeler]

Looking at the data card, I was thinking that they did include sedans and such. Given the total cars produced, the date range they were produced and the date on this card, your conclusion seems likely. One would have to assume a steady production of all cars and would be pretty easy to find the number of cars produced starting mid April 1962.

Mercedes seemed to start having issues with consistency with putting numbers to its cars. 111021 was a coupe only model, but the VIN # included sedans? Then there is the 220SE/SEb naming issue. Same deal with the 3.5. - 280SE....3.5? Even though they changed from 220SE to 250SE to 280SE to correspond with the engine size change. Oh well, nothing is perfect. But I digress from the topic which I will get back on soon.

I did test my motor and thank goodness it is perfectly fine. The gear head is also in good shape. So clearly the slow jerky motion was completely due to lack of lube and worse, old gummy grease. So hopefully this thread will save a few rear window motors from death.

[wwheeler]

Before I get into the sequence of removing the rear quarter window mechanism, I wanted to show the part that I think has been causing most of my issues - #111 673 51 46 or the guide plate. See attached. I show the guide plate with the #111 670 55 46 window regulating rail. The window glass is attached to this regulating rail. The rail has the rollers that slide/roll in the grooves on the guide plate.

My problem was that the rail with the rollers, would NOT move easily or smoothly up and down in the guide plate. I found out why. The rollers were binding in certain spots along the way. I have no idea if it is the fault of the rollers or the guide plate. But I marked the spots where it bound. See attached. The rollers would move smoothly through some parts of the guide plate but not all. So I took a Dremel tool a slowly removed enough metal in the tracks so that a roller would move smoothly through the entire run. Now the rail moves easily up and down with all three rollers in the guide plate.

My rollers are not in bad shape, but they are made using 50 + year old plastic technology. See attached. Maybe the reason they were tight had something to do with that? Not sure but I am making my own rollers and back up washer out of Delrin (Acetal). A superior material for this application.   

The rollers (#111 673 50 77) are NLA but the back up washers (#111 673 50 76) are $15/ea from Mercedes. I am getting a machine shop to make me enough sets and can provide sets (both roller and washer) for $10/set if anybody is interested. For one car, you would need (6) sets. I need to know very soon (by August 3rd or 4th) if anybody wants these. If not, I will just make what I need.

I will keep working on the rest of the project.

Wallace

[wwheeler]

I think the best way to start is to show the major parts off the car that are involved.
1) Previously I posted the guide plate that bolts to the inner quarter panel. It attaches with two screws at the top and two at the bottom. The ones at the bottom are visible where as the ones on the top are behind the glass and harder to see. See first two attached.
2) Also previously posted is the sliding plate that is attached to the guide plate by rollers (see previous) and E clips. The glass is attached to this sliding plate towards the bottom and can also be seen in attachment #2 and #3. According to the MB parts catalog, all three parts (guide plate, sliding plate and rollers) are used on 021 to 027 two door W111 cars. So all models in the series.
3) The glass is the next major component. It has a U shaped bracket with studs that are pressed on, along with a rubber channel, at the bottom of the glass. There are also two holes in the glass a 1/4 of the way up, where it is also mounted to the sliding plate. This glass #111 673 54 10 is also used for all years of W111 two door cars. I'll post a picture of that soon.
4) The regulator for sure will be different in that it can be manual or power windows. There was also a change to the power window motor and gear head around 1969. My regulator is pre-'69 and is power. See attached #4   

I have run out attachments for this post and will be continued.......
 

[wwheeler]

Part of the regulator is the electric motor and gear drive. Attached #1 and #2. You could also have the manual crank gear. I also mentioned a different motor around 1969 and that was a one piece casting for both the motor and gear drive. On the earlier units like mine that is shown, a rubber coupling connects the motor to the gear head. There are four of these per car as the front motors use the same coupling.

As a side note, I am going to reproduce this coupling (#000 821 02 26) as it is NLA. While my couplings are okish, they do show signs of cracking and rubber degradation. What do you want for a near 60 year old rubber part??? I am not going to all this trouble only to have to go back and replace it later. Picture #3 shows the coupling. These parts should be ready for sale near the end of September. As a reminder I am also getting the roller set machined from Delrin (#111 673 50 (77) 76. They should also be ready by September's end. Attached #4.

More to come....

[wwheeler]

The final component in this rather involved assembly is the panel cap. See #1. This piece is bolted to the inner panel (that holds the regulator) at the top. It will be the first piece to take off and exposes the other parts below. Its main feature is that it holds the inner window seal rail (whiskers I call it) and allows some adjustment. BTW, The outer window seal rail is screwed to the quarter panel frame.

In my case, the panel cap also has the threaded attachment point for the front shoulder seat belt. I am out of time and energy, so the disassembly comes next.

[wwheeler]

Finally, the disassembly process I used for the rear window. The worst part is that you cannot see what is behind the glass to know how it comes apart. Once apart, it is pretty easy to understand. I knew that there were rollers in the guide plate. I just didn't know how they were attached and would they go...plunk never to be seen again.

1) remove rear interior side panel and water shield 2)Once that is off you will see the picture above with the motor and regulator 3) There is an access plate that is about 6" x 10" and is held in by two very small sheet screws. Mine had black goop around the perimeter and probably a water seal. Chip that off and you will find the screws. See 1st attached 4) Disconnect wiring to the motor, remove terminal block and any wire clamps on the regulator. 5) Remove motor from regulator. 6) manually lower glass until the two slide plate rail screws are visible and remove those NOTE: you can also leave the motor on and use that to lower the glass electrically. 7) Now lower the window so the lower glass to slide plate screw can be removed. See 2nd attached. 8 -Now use a plastic pry tool to remove the slide plate rail from the glass. It has rubber strips that have bonded to the glass. Be careful. 9) Now remove the top cap and the (5) screws that hold it on. 10) Now remove the glass from the car by tilting it inward. The glass has to be removed from the slide plate which also has rubber strips that have stuck to the glass. 11) Remove the three screws for the regulator and maneuver it so that the plastic slider comes out of the channel in the slide plate. 12) In order to remove the large guide plate, the window felt seal rail has to be removed first. It is held on by three small screws. 13) Remove guide plate from car held on by (4) screws. 

From here you can remove the rollers in the guide plate and clean and lube everything for smooth operation. Once you get the interior panel off and see the components in person, it will make more sense.     

[lpeterssen]

As a side note, I am going to reproduce this coupling (#000 821 02 26) as it is NLA. While my couplings are okish, they do show signs of cracking and rubber degradation....

More to come....

Dear Wallace

I am very interested in having a copy of that part as I have a w112 - 66’ with electric windows as well and more recently a W109 -66 which has one door window motor missing and coupler.

Let me know if you produce more than one.

Best regards
L.peterssen

[wwheeler]

I am going to make several drive couplings and probably sell through parts vendors that are familiar here. Just getting my ducks in a row for that now.

I am also making the rollers for the rear window. These will be made of Delrin which is a superior materiel for this application. I'll post info on that when they areready.

Wallace

[wwheeler]

Good news! The W111/W112 rear quarter window roller kits are ready and for sale. Authentic Classics currently has it although they may not have had time to post it on their website. It takes (6) kits to do one car (3 per side). Attached is a picture of the new parts versus old. And then the kit. Also has detailed instructions. I installed these on my window guides and they work very smoothly now!

The power window motor couplings are almost done as well. I will post when that is complete.

Wallace

[JHDG]

Wallace,

Thank you for the awesome post above. It really helped us with the rebuild of our rear windows. I realize that some time has passed since you made this post. Did you ever get the drive couplers produced. I would love to replace my old cracked ones.

Also, as we are trying to get all the glass reinstalled there are many adjustments to be made to get everything to line up and fit tightly. Are there any documents or guides as to how the glass is "supposed" to fit.

Thanks in advance.

Jeff
1968 250se convertible
1970 280sl

[wwheeler]

I did make the couplings and will send you some info on that. I don't think there is much in the way of adjustments on the back quarters. The fronts, yes! I have not done the ones on my W111 but have done the ones on my W128 coupe. The vent window adds an unbelievable amount of adjustments. I am not sure there is a way to explain all of what is involved. It is straight forward, you just have to take it step by step and evaluate along the way.

[JHDG]

Wallace, I got all the windows installed. They all run up and down smoothly. We 3D printed new switch bodies because half of them were broken. We also printed those bulky switch surrounds too if anyone needs them (ours were warped). Ready to get the couplings installed if you can send me the info. Then perform a little fine tuning and close up all the door cards. Getting close. Getting anxious to drive her again.

Thanks

Jeff

[jag_ev12]

Hello good Morning,
I‘m new here,
i completly restoring a W112 300SE Coupé and just doing the rear Windows.
Can Anyone Tell me in What Sequence the different Parts from the window roller kit Need to be Applied?
Thanks in Advance for Your Help.
Best regards
Ulrich

[wwheeler]

It has been awhile since I did mine, but will give it a shot. I may have forgotten some of the detailed step and maybe Jeff can fill in if needed. BTW, there are pics and removal details above in this thread. The roller kits are available from Authentic Classics and also Millers.
- First remove rear door panel which means rear seat removal. The back rest is held in place by two bolts accessed in the trunk.
- Remove the cap plate above the window mechanism. This has the fuzzy window guides mounted to it.
- Disconnect battery and then motor wiring. Motor and gear head can also be removed at this time.
- Glass needs to come out next. It is held in at two places one at the bottom and then in the middle at the slide plate. Trick here is that there is a rubber gasket used to mount the glass and will have bonded it self to the glass. Need to gently pry that off. Once disconnected, the glass can be removed. Be careful not to scratch it on the way up and out. 
- Next is the regulator assembly
- Finally the guide plate is removed from the cavity. It has two bolts in the top an two at the bottom.

Attached are instructions to fit the new roller kit. My guide plate had some tight spots and I filed the enough to create a smooth path.

[dunc1]

Hi
Did you end up making some of those couplers ?
I'm about to try and fix the rear window on my 1969 280se w111 coupe and the present one has a crack in the rubber.

Another note that I'm trying to investigate is how the horizontal window felts that sit either side of the glass are attached to the door and rear panel ?
Thanks,
Duncan

[wwheeler]

I believe Authentic has good stock on the couplers -- https://www.authenticclassics.com/Mercedes-108-111-Window-Sunroof-Motor-Coupling-p/auth-007833.htm

They also have the roller set for the Quarter window.https://www.authenticclassics.com/W111-W112-Mercedes-Door-Window-Roller-Kit-p/auth-007984.htm

The felts are all screwed in or at least they are on my '68 coupe. No clips or provisions for clips as on other models. The outer strip is screwed into the qtr panel. The inner strip is screwed into a piece of sheet metal that is just below the leather cap. Once you take the cap off, you will see.

A NOTE of caution - Be careful with the fuzzy strips in that you use the correct thickness. Mercedes had been selling a strip that was much thicker and poorer in quality in my opinion. Same piece on the W113. Not sure if they ever fixed that. If you use (2) strips of the thick variety, it will be too tight and bind the qtr glass going up. Ask me how I know. The inner sheet metal is somewhat adjustable but not the outer. Vendors in Germany sell a strip that is thinner (almost too thin really) but much better quality. I used one MB (inner) and one German made (outer) on my coupe.
This is the German made variety -    https://www.mbclassics.de/Abstreifborsten-Tuerschachtabdichtung-1m
 
Hopefully this helps. 

[dunc1]

Amazing.
Thank you so much. It brings me much relief. I have purchased the couplers and the rollers for both sides from the links you sent - Hoping things go up and down smoothly with lots of fresh grease too.
I had bought my new fuzzy strips from Niemoller - are those the "thin" variety ? Is it bad to use for both inner and outer and will lead to a sloppy fit ?
Thank you too for the info about how to affix them. I had tried some clips and they didn't seem right either, so I can now screw them back in with confidence.
Thanks,
Duncan

[wwheeler]

See attached instructions. It may take more than just grease.

Not sure about Neimoller but they are probably the thin variety. Those guys usually buy from the same mfgs. Thin is better than thick. The fuzzy strips don't really guide the glass as much as you would think. They are more of an air seal when the glass is up to prevent whistling. They do prevent the glass from rubbing up against a metal surface while moving, but it should not be rubbing hard. If so, your guides are out of adjustment. The quarter window has no adjustment really. Just a big metal guide plate for the three roller guides.

Good luck. 

[dunc1]

Hello again.
Pardon to keep peppering you with questions, but I wondered if you knew where this rubber seal goes ?
I see it in the schematic and don't think I notice it on either side of my car.
If you know where they should belong, then please let me know.
Thanks
Duncan