early vs. late 230SL

[Macfly]

Hi all,

I was looking fro a 280, manual shift but seem to be seeing some earlier cars getting my attention. I've been given some good general advice on the models and values, but her is a bit deeper question. How about the difference between older and newer production fo the 230SL specifically? I have seen a very nicely preserved 1967 230 model and also see an ad here on this site for an early 1963 model. How much had they changed over that span? Drum brakes to disc, right? Other significant changes? Are there significant value differences over that span?

Thanks,
Greg

[scoot]

230 SLs are the same basically, very early ones have a smaller gas tank.  Buy the best car you can independent of 230/250/280 SL.

[thelews]

This link will give you most of the major changes.  I'm biased, but the early 250 has the original 113 cosmetics of the 230 and also has the mechanical improvements of the 280.  Hardest model to find.

http://www.silverstarclassics.com/113SL.htm

[Jonny B]

Greg,

If you join as a full member you will get access to Pagoda Notes, which lists all of the changes by year for the 113 cars over the course of a number of issues, all in order. It will not address the issue of current value, just the list of running changes to the car. They started in Volume 9 Issue 4 running through Volume11 Issue 3.

[Bonnyboy]

Just buy the best car you can afford and you hopefully don't go wrong. They are all very good.    Figure out what "flicks your bic" and look for that.

For me I just wanted my Dad's rusted out car as it was his car - if it was a BMW 2800 I would be part of the BMW club again - it just happened my Dad had a rusted out Pagoda in the back yard.   

A friend bought his pagoda just because he liked the front end and the mini fins (sexy little things people always seem to caress) at the back and another guy I know bought his because he is German and wanted what was the "best" when he was a kid.   None of us really care about gas tank size, drum vs disk rear brakes or extra chrome in the interior. 

Just get one you can afford to purchase and maintain. 

[Benz Dr.]

230 SLs are the same basically, very early ones have a smaller gas tank.  Buy the best car you can independent of 230/250/280 SL.

I always thought that 230SL fuel tanks were all the same size.

[perry113]

For the most part all 230SL's are just about the same.
Very early cars had an additional chrome surround within the soft top cover and the far left and right fresh air dash vents were partially painted the color of the dash.
The early cars I believe had 5.5 inch rims whereas later examples had 6 inch depth.
The early cars had the spare mounted in the left of the boot and at a near vertical angle and later cars were mounted horizontally on the right side.
In october 1965 the original 230SL headers were replaced with cast manifolds.
I think there were some revisions to the seats.
Here is an example of a super original 1967 230SL. One of the very last ones.
This is an excellent reference car for essentially all 230SL's to see how these cars were when they were new.
A beautiful survivor and not to far off from as nice as you would ever find.
see:
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1967-mercedes-benz-230sl-22/
The 230SL is my favorite of all of the Pagodas. It is the original design. It's pure.

[114015]

I always thought that 230SL fuel tanks were all the same size.

Oh, absolutely sure so, Sir!

[Macfly]

Thank you all for the replies.

It's clear I need to look at many until I find the magical moment. These cars are really hard to find in solid condition and at a reasonable price. So I need to find the car I want, not the deal I hope for. It will take some time...

[Bracqtobasics]

Greetings,

I’m currently helping my father search for a 230SL and was wondering whether there are significant changes between cars built for the US market and those in Europe. I’m based in the UK and have discovered that there seems to be quite a notable divergence between cars for sale in the US and over here in Europe and especially the UK which I assume is just because that’s where the blatant majority of the W113s originally went and thus there’s more supply. We’re currently considering the idea of importing an example from the United States as opposed to buying one from the home market but are curious as to whether one model is inferior to the other based on the original market in which it was built for as is the case with many cars from the era.

Appreciate any advice

Cheers

[Bonnyboy]

Mr. Bracqtobasics - have a look in the archives of this forum - lots of discussion on this topic - but as far as I can tell the mechanics were basically the same with the later european models having a hotted up camshaft giving a bit more juice.  the American cars may have seatbelts with headrests and different pockets in the interior and the most noticable being different headlights, bumper over riders and side marker lights.  You may find the options were a bit different with more power steering and airconditioning on US models, different ratio rear ends and more emissions equipment.   More US cars came with whitewalls.  I'm sure I missed something.

Any car in the "right condition" for you should be fine - spend money on a good body first, mechanical 2nd and then everything else after that. 

[Benz Dr.]

Mr. Bracqtobasics - have a look in the archives of this forum - lots of discussion on this topic - but as far as I can tell the mechanics were basically the same with the later european models having a hotted up camshaft giving a bit more juice.  the American cars may have seatbelts with headrests and different pockets in the interior and the most noticable being different headlights, bumper over riders and side marker lights.  You may find the options were a bit different with more power steering and airconditioning on US models, different ratio rear ends and more emissions equipment.   More US cars came with whitewalls.  I'm sure I missed something.

Any car in the "right condition" for you should be fine - spend money on a good body first, mechanical 2nd and then everything else after that.

Aside from Euro 280SL's, all other engines are basically the same. 

[JamesL]

Greetings,

I’m currently helping my father search for a 230SL and was wondering whether there are significant changes between cars built for the US market and those in Europe. I’m based in the UK and have discovered that there seems to be quite a notable divergence between cars for sale in the US and over here in Europe and especially the UK which I assume is just because that’s where the blatant majority of the W113s originally went and thus there’s more supply. We’re currently considering the idea of importing an example from the United States as opposed to buying one from the home market but are curious as to whether one model is inferior to the other based on the original market in which it was built for as is the case with many cars from the era.

Appreciate any advice

Cheers

The steering wheel is in a different place
But a lot of folk buy a US car and import it as there’s likely better value to be had and - depending on the car/history - less chance of a rotten body. Especially if you’re after a driver rather than fully restored

[Cole]

Hi Greg,

This is a matter of personal preference. Yes, the cars are enhanced each year, but I personally prefer having one from the first year of production, in this case, a '63. There's something special about one from the first year with the initial specs, etc., a 2020 living example of the original 230SL debuted in Geneva in '63. Also, some of the interior chrome work on the 230SLs, to me, is nicer than the 280SLs, such the ignition key housing; I also prefer the bolder 230SL steering wheel and horn ring over the later ones.

Cheers.
Cole

[J. Huber]

What he said...

[Cole]

What he said...

Hi. No comprendo. Please clarify.

[J. Huber]

Sorry Cole. A little cryptic and a lot flippant. I was just agreeing with the previous post that having an early (1963) 230 SL is rewarding -- as it is sort of the primogeniture of Pagodas.

PS I have one...

James

[Cole]

Thanks for getting back to me, James.
I thought maybe you'd been referring back to another post like you said.
BTW, I'm the guy with the #133 230sL and am down here in LA.

I noticed you live up in Cedar Ridge and just looked it up on the map. It looks like quite a nice area up there in the hills.
How early is your 230SL? A couple weeks ago, I talked with a guy who had #3 that he'd sold to someone in EU.

Cheers.
Cole

[66andBlue]

....  A couple weeks ago, I talked with a guy who had #3 that he'd sold to someone in EU.
Cheers.
Cole

Cole,
If that guy really owned #3 then he sold one of the most sought after Pagodas anywhere. That car was the first 230SL on American soil and was featured dominantly at the New York Autoshow in 1963:
 https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=27320.msg196016#msg196016
You can read all about it in PW 14.

[J. Huber]

Hey Cole. Mine is number 871. And number 25 with an Automatic transmission.

Yes Cedar Ridge is very pretty. Now to be clear I am in the CR in Nevada County CA. Essentially Grass Valley and Nevada City on the 49/174. There is another CR in Tuolunme? County. To quote Joe Walsh “Ain’t never been there, they tell me it’s nice.”

[neelyrc]

Here is #15 which I shot in Padova, Italy about a year ago.  This car was also formerly in the USA.  Achim knew of this car before it went back to Europe and I believe he went down to look at it in Reggio Emilia late last year.

[zak]

 Regarding the interiors of the early cars ( 230, early 250 SLs ) vs late model 250SLs and 280 SLs, I think the late model design is truest to the cars design and style.
The early cars were fitted with existing parts from the Pontoon and Heckfloss cars that were designed before the 113s.
To me the later model cars with their rectangular door pulls and mirrors suit the 113 " modern" design better then the earlier round shapes.
Mike S., what would Paul Brach say ?

jz

[Garry]

The later design changes in the interior were only driven by US safety laws that forced the use of matt chrome, plastics and also the rounding and padding of the dash board top and not any “ modernisation” of design. Paul Bracq had left Mercedes Benz by the time the changes were made to go and work on the TGV high speed trains..


However, each to their own i guess and beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.


Garry

[zak]

Thanks Garry. I knew I was spouting blasphemy.
But I do think the later style exterior rear view mirror is simpatico with the body's design.
jz

[Benz Dr.]

The later design changes in the interior were only driven by US safety laws that forced the use of matt chrome, plastics and also the rounding and padding of the dash board top and not any “ modernisation” of design. Paul Bracq had left Mercedes Benz by the time the changes were made to go and work on the TGV high speed trains..


However, each to their own i guess and beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.


Garry

After a night of working on that girl at the pub, the saying around here became, " Beauty is in the eyes of the beer holder."