Problem after engine rebuid ...

[troctime]

Hi,

I use a lot the forums and lots of information I was able to read (and sometime understand) since the last 6/7 years that I have my 230SL from 66.

The car has had a lot of work on it during the last years
-Interior redone ( It was not the best idea to begin with that !)
-New radiator, all water hose new, coolcat cooling system
-New petrol tank, new petrol pump, all petrol pipelines new or dedone
-Rear axle completely redone last year
-All suspension and springs new
-Front and rear brakes redone, mastercylinder and all pipes
-All engine suspension, busing, rubber mounting ...
... etc
Of course rust removing, metal cut and new parts installed and treatment and a complete paint.

18 month ago the engine was removed and completely rebuilt :
Injection pump rebuilt in Alsace (close to Germany)
6 new pistons with grinding of the block
Cylinder head redone
...

I use the new engine since more than one year now. I did drive more than 10000km with it now.

The car is running fine but I use more oil than before rebuilding the engine.
I changed twice the valve steam gasket and use now a german product that should be flawless. 

This summer I used more than 2 liter of oil every 1000km (it was only 1 liter before rebuilt).

No leaking under the car.
No oil under the engine
When I start the car I do have some smoke
When I drive, go slow and give some gaz again I do have smoke
When friend follow my car they smell oil AND gasoline (I'm running too rich too)
I removed the 6 spark plugs, most are ok but cylinder one is dark
I did a compression test, all cylinder are close to 11.8 bar but cylinder one is 10.8 bar
I use a boroscope (endoscope) to look inside the cylinders through the spark plug hole. Piston one is more dark and dirty and it looks like it has some very fine stripes (up-down) in the cylinder hole that I don't see on cylinder 6 ( I tested only the faulty one compare to a suposed good one ).

I suspect a piston ring on cylinder one ...

I plan to reopen the engine

Has someone have the knowledge :
If I remove the cylinder head (from the top)
If I remove the oil pan (from the bottom)
Can I remove piston one ? ( without taking all the engine out of the car )

Thanks for your help ( and for reading the long story ! )

Olivier
 

[ja17]

Yes, you can remove at least piston #1 and #2 with the head and oil sub-pan removed and the engine still in the car. Be sure to check the head also, in case one valve guide has come loose. Vertical marks in the cylinder wall could mean a ring was damaged during installation or something did not break-in correctly. Keep us posted!

[stickandrudderman]

It's all very well removing a piston to check for damage without removing the engine but chances are you'll have to take the engine out to rectify whatever you find anyway so I would just bite the bullet and take it out.

[troctime]

New informations from inside

I used my new boroscope to see inside my engine. A boroscope with 2 cameras, one looking forward and one looking at the side.

I removed the spark plug from cylinder one and introduced the camera inside.

As a result I saw oil leaking from the top of the cylinder.

Has anyone experience of that ?

Cylinder head was redone
Motor was redone
Gasket new
... etc

I added 2 pictures

-One from a cylinder head dismantled to show where the camera is located and where the leaking come from ( I have a spare cylinder head that used for that post )
-One from inside my engine to show the leaking

I wil first try to re tight the cylinder head and look if the leaking stops

If no success I will remove the cylinder head , check, put a new gasket and rebuild

Has any one some more ideas ?

Thanks

Olivier

[bjdg]

In the second picture, what is that across the cylinder at the top?  It looks like material in the cylinder?  Maybe I am not seeing it correctly.

A few questions to consider. How smooth was the cut on the cyl head and block?  Did you use new bolts?  Were the head bolt threads cleaned in the block?  Are the injectors working correctly?  Is the front cylinder getting washed out for some reason?

The first cylinder, as far as I remember does not have an oil port beside it. The oil pressure to feed the cam is at the back of the engine I believe. So the only oil to get in would be from the timing chain.

[ja17]

The oil feed for the camshaft is near the front cylinder #1. The oil feed comes up out of the block near the front cylinder and the oil travels into a head bolt hole for the front cam support where it travels through the front cam support and into the oil tube above the cam where it drips onto the camshaft. The oil returns to the sump via a large drain opening at the rear of the cylinder head.

[bjdg]

Oh yes, thank you Ja17, I remember now with the help of some pictures. Comes up through the hole on the left side of the block, through the channel seen in the upper picture, then up the head bolt to the cam and oil distribution pipe.

And I see better now the cyl.

Troctime, can you take pictures of another cyl for comparison?  You are right, that side of the cyl is close to that oil feed line.

Are there any external head gasket leaks near that pressure feed?

[troctime]

Hi

Thanks for having some interest in my problems.

Cylinder head was shaved correctly
Motor was shaved correctly
Bolts where new
...

I'll check on another cylinder, you're right, to compare.

On the second picture I did post, I see oil leaking and oil trace coming down the cylinder.
Furthermore only cylinder one is close to oil (close to left red pointer on picture one)
And I only have a lower compression measured on cylinder one.

I can't see oil traces outside the engine

Maybe some dirt left on the gasket ... ?

I will order a new head gasket and remove cylinder head next week ans recheck everything.

Do you have recommendations on cylinder head gasket brands ?
I normally order by Niemuller in Germany

Regards,

Olivier
 

[ja17]

Maybe you accidentally damaged the gasket during installation? Mercedes calls for first re-torque after first engine warming to full temperature also.

[troctime]

I think the re torquing was correctly done.
3 streps torquing when putting the motor head on.
Engine warming up, then torquing again
...
And again after approx 500km ( 300 miles )

I will see next Wednesday.
We decided to remove the cylinder head.

It is nonsense to try to retorque now, the engine as run a few thousands miles now. The oil as build his way to my cylinder

I’ll post some pictures !

Any idea for a gasket brand ?
- Erling is easy to find
- Reinz Victor is provided by Niemuller where I use to buy ( 1,8mm thick )

[troctime]

The head was removed yesterday

NO problems on the cylinder head gasket !

We found out that 4 of the Valve stem seals are out !!!

I started with 12 new valve seals when I did the engine 2 years ago (white ones 6 x 2 sizes)

I had to install 2 new ones last year

So I changed to another product from Germany ( ai-motors.de ) the valve seals are green ( 12 x all same size ? on the german forum, it should be THE solution.

And now I have 4 seals moving around and not doing the job

Has the head is removed, I will take time to make it the best way now

I red about using glue ( what type / ref ? )

Any tips or ideas that you already tested ( with success ! )

Thanks,

Olivier

[ja17]

Did you replace all the valve guides when you did the head? Sometimes the outside of the guide wears and will not hold the valve seal anymore. Especially the intake valves on the 230SLs which have no groove to help hold the seal in place.

[stickandrudderman]

When I build a 230 head I have the guides knurled at the top so as to prevent the seals popping off.
In the past I have actually had custom guides made so as to take a completely different and more reliable seal.

[troctime]

Hi

Thanks for your support.

I feel stupid removing the cylinder head only for the valve seals

But now that it’s done I will do it properly !

I found new seals that seems to include a plastic envelope that could seat on the cylinder head hold by the spring ... I put a picture of it. As soon as I receive them I’ll test and come back to you,

Olivier

[stickandrudderman]

I've never seen those seals before but I wish I had! What's the part number please?

[troctime]

Hi

Seams to be the same reference as before :
ELRING 316.482

I hope they come like on the picture

I let you know when I get them


Olivier

[Sead]

Hi

Seams to be the same reference as before :
ELRING 316.482

I hope they come like on the picture

I let you know when I get them


Olivier

you will get same as before.
This is just an "Beispielbild"  german: example image . It doesnt show concrete part u ordered.

[troctime]

Hi

You’re probably right

I’ll tell you when I get them

If it is the usual one ( without a cap ) I’ll try to make the cap myself.
I found the idea the have the spring holding the seals in place better than trying to glue or modifying the guides to try to better hold the seals in place.

I already took contact with a company close to me capable of making them.
( I already work with them for my business ).
I think it is worth a try ...

I let you know

Olivier

[wwheeler]

If the spring holds down the seal cap, wouldn't that shim the spring and therefore increase the spring force? I am not sure it is significant, but seems like something to look into. Higher spring force could cause more wear on valve train parts. Just a thought. I like the idea, but that part worries me a bit.

[ja17]

A slight dimensional change should not cause any problems.

[MarkCan]

Hi

You’re probably right

I’ll tell you when I get them

If it is the usual one ( without a cap ) I’ll try to make the cap myself.
I found the idea the have the spring holding the seals in place better than trying to glue or modifying the guides to try to better hold the seals in place.

I already took contact with a company close to me capable of making them.
( I already work with them for my business ).
I think it is worth a try ...

I let you know

Olivier

Did you receive the valve seals yet?
What head gasket did you get?