for a brief moment I felt a Pagoda

[Ed Fisher]

After pouring over the archives and How-to sections I determined that I was one of the novices using the venturi stop screw as an idle adjust.  So, armed with the excellent information I found on a How-to article I began my injector tuning.  I had previously adjusted the dwell to 38-39º and had set the timing to no ping under load.  So, yesterday evening I set the stop rod so that the venturi valve didn't bind (Admittedly I didn't do any linkage adjustments past that, since I read that I could get in the ballpark without this).  I connected a vacuum gauge and adjusted the air screw to maximize, turning it CW would stall/reduce vacuum, turning it CCW would never reduce vacuum).  I clicked the idle fuel mixture on the injector, with engine off, but it didn't really make too much difference.  At this point the idle was about 900rpms, and car would stall in gear (auto tranny).  My CSS is inoperable, but I had read that a car in good tune will fall off a couple of hundred rpms in gear, but should not stall, even with no CSS (even if I kick up the idle manually with my foot in gear, it still does not help much)  At this point I took it for a drive to see where I was with the adjustments, and to blow out the soot from running marginally before.  

Wow.  The car shifted beautifully and ran so smoothly.  Never before had I felt it like this.  I was hooked, and now understood about all of the postings regarding civilized sports car.  Unfortunately, my new love affair was short lived.

As the car heated up more, it ran worse and worse until the shifts were no longer as smooth, at stops it shifted itself into first gear instead of second, and began a low rpm stumble.  When I returned home I endeavored to recheck some of the settings (idle air, fuel) but the vacuum was low and turning air almost all of the way out would not help.  Idle was still very low (~500 out of gear). At this point, even though the engine compartment was hotter than Hades, I loosened the distributor collar and tweaked the timing (haven't removed distributor and rotated collar yet Cees).  The timing can be set to ~30º at 3000rpms, but at this setting the car does not run well.  It wants to be advanced further.  The timing markss are pretty darned solid at this engine speed, but wander just a little.  I have moved this distributor quite a bit advanced to bring up idle speed, but in gear idle still stalls.

So, with my hands and forearms burnt to a crisp, I ask for your collective wisdom again.  Thankfully, for two miles into my drive I felt the sheer, smooth, finely engineered beauty that this 41 year old car has to offer so that my resolve is again bolstered.  Without this glimpse, before the running turned South, I would still think it a bucket of poorly running bolts.  Now I know what can be attained.

Any help is appreciated.  Steer me to any tech articles, tell me every How-to article, call me a bonehead.  I will send out my distributor to be rebuilt if that will help.  What am I missing?

As an aside, the following is new:  gas tank, fuel pump, fuel filter, and IP freshly rebuilt.  She really wants to run well, I just haven't quite gotten there yet.

Ed Fisher
Dallas, Tx

[George Davis]

Ed,

my suggestion is to start over, and start with the basics.

First, adjust the valves.  After that, three things will prevent you from getting the idle adjusted correctly: a leaking Cold Start Valve, an improperly operating Warm-Running Device, and... too much ignition advance.  So make sure the CSV isn't leaking and the WRD is working right and most importantly shutting off properly.  Set the timing to factory specs.

Then go back to the linkage adjustment procedure and get that all set correctly.  NOW you have a reasonable shot at getting the idle mixture and speed right.

The idle fuel adjustment is not overly sensitive, when adjusting it I usually turned it 2 to 4 clicks at a time to get close to where I wanted it, and then went one click at a time for fine tuning.

If it won't idle, either the adjustment is too far off, or there is something else wrong.  Try adjusting the idle fuel screw richer by quite a bit, but not so far that the adjuster binds or can't be engaged (if you go too far rich, it'll do one of these, I just can't remember which now).

When adjusting the air screw, turn it in until idle speed slows and vacuum drops, then turn it back out.  As it backs out, idle speed and vacuum will increase to a maximum.  They may stay at that maximum for a few more turns before speed and vacuum drop off again.  It seems the best idle is at the point where maximum rpms and vacuum are FIRST REACHED as the screw is being backed out.  A bit of going back and forth is needed to find the spot.  I also found it helpful to rev the engine for a few seconds now and then to clear it out.

Good luck!


George Davis
'69 280 SL Euro manual

[Ed Fisher]

George:

Thanks for the reply.  Actually, I believe it was your explanation, replete with pictures and an awesome explanation of the iterative process between air and fuel mix, which gave me enough courage to start fiddling with the IP.  I have not tried valve settings yet since I have read what a bear that the hold down nuts can be without the proper crowfoot wrench, and I didn’t check the linkage adjustments more closely because I got confused as to whether or not I needed to measure or add a tube of some sort.  Without pictures, I am not too confident of the locations of things (actually, I had looked for the adjustment on the IP before, but did not find it until I saw a picture).  I will go back and try to ensure that the linkages are set up to spec, and try it from there before I delve into a valve adjustment.  I’m not too sure of the warm running device, and actually not to sure of its location.  I printed a picture of it, and will look hopefully tonight.  Perhaps a removal of shims?  

The CSV is new, but has no wire going to it at all, so I thought I could rule that out as giving extra gas at operating temps (it certainly gives none to aid in cold starts).  Does the warm up device signal the CSV, or, does it pump extra fuel in and of itself?

What exactly is timing spec at anything other than 3000 rpms?  Since I am doing this by myself, I can’t exactly see the marker and goose the accelerator easily alone.  Can I start off at X ATDC at idle and be close?  I can see that it advances to ~30 all the way to 50 at higher rpms, it is just tough to set it.  Can I remove the vacuum advance (which is the only way to get it to idle right now) and set it in the ball park somewhere?

I had hoped that my symptoms would suggest something else, so I thought I would give it a try.  

Thanks for your encouraging words.

Ed

[George Davis]

Ed, a few answers:

look here

http://pagoda113.com/evefiles/attachments/5/1/8/518601936/518601936_engine_Link1_small.jpg?ts=425C016E&key=5D9CCE92EC702AF68FEB70DFB7FFD466&referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fpagoda113.com%2Feve%2Fubb.x%2Fa%2Fga%2Ful%2F898102507%2Fengine_Link1_small.jpg

for a picture of the right linkage bracket.  If yours has the hole indicated in the bracket, you need the 3/8 tube to set the throttle control rod length.  If no hole, you use the alternate injection pump rod length measuring method.

Test the CSV for leakage by unscrewing the 8 mm screw in the side of the CSV.  Turn on the ignition so the fuel pump runs, but don't start the engine.  Check the CSV for fuel coming out the hole.  If no fuel, no leak.  Shut down and reinstall screw.

The Warmrunning Device (WRD) is completely independent of the CSV and adds more air and fuel while the engine is cold and warming up.  It's the tower thing on top of the injection pump with two small coolant hoses connected to it.  Don't remove any shims, but check the WRD as follows: get a plastic or rubber tube to use as a stethoscope.  With cold engine, start it and listen at the small round air filter on the WRD, you should hear loud hissing.  There is about a 3/4 inch hose from the WRD to a metal tube that runs behind the engine to the CSV.  Pinch the hose shut, the idle speed should slow down.  These two tests confirm that the WRD is open when cold.  Let the engine fully warm up to normal operating temp.  Now listen at the small air filter, you should hear no hissing.  If you hear hissing, pinch off the hose again.  If the idle speed changes when you pinch, the WRD is not shutting off properly and needs to be fixed.

What year and model do you have, and which distributor (get the number off the plate on the distributor starting with JFUR or similar letters)?  Most of these beasts (with 051 distributor) are timed at 30 degrees BTDC at 3000 rpm with the vacuum line disconnected.  At idle, with the vacuum line reconnected, you should have 1-3 degrees ATDC (AFTER TDC).  You can set the idle timing with vacuum connected at, say, 2 degrees ATDC and then disconnect vacuum and check at 3000.  Adjust as necessary.  If you don't get both of these specs, something isn't right (assuming you have an 051).  You shouldn't get more than 30 degrees at any rpm, it's supposed to max out by 3000.  If the last 3 digits aren't 051, the timing specs may be different, let us know, the specs are around somewhere.


George Davis
'69 280 SL Euro manual

[Ed Fisher]

George:

What great explanations.  I had the picture that you just sent me again, but was unsure of exactly what I was looking for; you cleared that up nicely.

I will check the CSV and do the cold test on the WRD.  Your explanation was very clear.  I now suspect the WRD actually, since the car ran so perfectly for a minute or so then so poorly as it warmed up fully.  I turned the air screw out all of the way and could not get enough air in to slow down the engine so it seems that it is getting too much fuel.  Perhaps the WRD isn’t closing down.  That would be great.

I have a 1964 230sl with a later engine block in it (no stamp on stamp plate).  The wiring is kluged up, and I am trying to piece together how to work on this from the information on the site.  I promise I have been diligently reading.  I will get the distributor numbers as soon as I can and post back.

Thank you so much for the responses and the help.  I hope it doesn’t feel too much like hand-holding.  I can only tell you that you would be hard pressed to find anyone who appreciates it more.  I can guarantee that.

Sincerely grateful,

Ed Fisher
Dallas

[ja17]

Hello Ed,
Take a look at your spark plugs. They can give you some clues!

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio

[Ben]

Just to add briefly to what George says, you need to do all of what is suggested BUT in the correct order. If you try to set correct idle and mixture and then change the timing then you have also just changed your idle and mixture.

So first get the timing and dwell to specs as per Georges figures, then do the linkage settings, do ALL of them not just the throttle one. At this point check that the WRD is free/clean and working/shutting off .

Now you can play around with the idle and mixture screws !

Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.

[J. Huber]

Hi Ed. I am focusing on the good part. Glad you enjoyed the thrill for that fleeting moment. You now know the feeling -- just need to overcome a few obstacles to get there again! Good luck.

James
63 230SL

[Ed Fisher]

Thanks everyone, not only for reading of my travails, but also for offering suggested solutions and words of encouragement.  Admittedly, I had read this list before deciding to embark upon 40-year-old German technology.  You folks are truly dedicated and learned to the art that is Pagoda owning and driving.  I hope to learn enough to one-day help to contribute.

Luckily, I have some time on Tuesday evenings so I was able to go out into the garage last night and work from George’s great advice.  Here is the synopsis.

1)   My CSV is not leaking.
2)   My distributor # is: 0231116068, it seems to retard when hooking up the vacuum?
3)   My WRD is NOT closing.  The bottom most fitting, of the two in the same side, is terminated into the engine block between #2 and #3 spark plugs.  I take it to be using engine heat?  The other line dumps into the breather tube that goes into the intake near the venture valve.  If either of these are supposed to be coolant lines they are not.
4)   The WRD looks brand new, perhaps replaced when the previous owner had the IP rebuilt, perhaps only painted.  The good news is that the air cleaner seems to be “whooshing” just fine when closed.
5)   I checked closely the linkages, and they all appear to be in good order, according to the instructions outlined. Only one ever so slight adjustment was needed at the throttle stop.
6)   I did manually close the WRD, by pinching the fuel hose, after the car had fully warmed.  It idled pretty well (out of gear), but I was still unable to make the vacuum go down or the idle stumble by turning the air screw counter-clockwise.  Even if I take the screw out until it is in danger of falling out there is no indication that it is too much.
7)   
Please keep those ideas coming.  My schedule will not allow adjusting/tinkering/exploring every evening, but please do not give up on me.  I promise to be diligent.  If not the quickest to learn I may be the most stubborn before giving up.  

Feeling that smooth shifting, quiet running, peppy out-of-the-chute machine has definitely given me a new outlook.  Before that, I was not sure that the Pagoda and I were a good fit.  I have driven other cars from the 60’s and found them to be rather unrefined.  I mistakenly thought this was another example.

Ed

[Ed Fisher]

Forgot to mention that I have another distributor marking that looks like JfV6 or JFU6...

Ed

[George Davis]

Ed,

hang with it, getting these cars running right is half the fun, and lots of folks here are willing to help.

So, first on the WRD, the two uppermost hoses should be coolant lines as far as I know.  They provide engine heat to the thermostat element in the top of the WRD.  If your WRD is not shutting off when the engine is fully warm, it could be a bad thermostat element (which for you is bad news as they are quite expensive for the 230 SLs), or it could be blockage in the hoses or in the thermostat housing, preventing coolant flow.  The thermostat housing should be real hot when the engine is warmed up.  I suggest finding every post you can about the WRD, seach for warm running device, thermostat, thermostatic warm up system.  It's easy to remove and disassemble, a good cleaning has fixed many of them.  Just pay attention to the order of assembly, watch for shims, and put all shims back where they came from.  Playing with shims comes much later, if at all, in our Pagoda careers.  Test the thermostat by heating it in a pan of water, the center rod should push out as the water gets up to 180 degrees F.

I can't find your distributor number in my references, so can't tell you a thing about it.  There are two variations on the vacuum theme, advance or retard, and two different locations for the vacuum fitting on the throttle body corresponding to the advance or retard type.  One type gets vacuum at idle, the other type has vacuum shut off at idle.  Mismatched systems don't work so good.  Your homework assignment is to a bit of reseach:
set timing at 2 degrees ADTC with vacuum connected;
disconnect vacuum line and see if timing changes, and which way and how much;
if no change when vacuum line is disconnected, see if you get vacuum at the vacuum fitting at idle;
if no vacuum at the fitting at idle, crack the throttle open a little bit and see if you now get vacuum;
with vacuum line disconnected, rev engine to 3000 and see how much ignition advance you're getting.
Write and post a 100 word essay on your findings and what it all means .


George Davis
'69 280 SL Euro manual

[Ed Fisher]

Thanks George.  I will hang with it.  I am pretty darned sure that the hoses running to the WRD are not coolant hoses.  I paid close attention to where they were originating and terminating, and the lowermost comes from the side of the block with a flex hose between #2 and #3 spark plugs.  The upper goes back out from the WRD via flex line connected to a larger diameter steel line that runs with the steel line bundle of the injectors across the front of the valve cover.  It dumps out into the breather tube.  I felt these two rubber lines, and compared them to the heater hoses at the firewall and there was a marked difference with the heater/coolant hoses being much hotter.  

I should say that the previous owner had taken the car to “who knows where” for service/repair and much of it is hacked up.  I can’t be sure that anything is hooked up correctly.  Is the WRD always hooked up to coolant hoses?  Is it possible that the previous “mechanic” hooked it up incorrectly?  I must say that it looks right…

Update:  I just spoke with Will Samples, who I must say is a great guy.  He went out to his shop and looked at a block that he has on his bench and said that there is supposed to be a big cast iron chunk bolted between #2 and #3 spark plugs with thermostats in them.  I have no such chunk, just a hose running to the block.  He asked that I send him a picture, which I will also send to you kind folks, and perhaps we can see what I am missing?  Will also said that an 068 distributor should be set pretty much like an 051 (30º ATDC at 3000 rpms with vacuum disconnected).  I’ll get a picture as soon as I can.  

Joe:  Once I get it running at least semi-acceptably I’ll be sure to read the plugs and report back.

Essay title:  “How difficult it is for me to refer to the hook on the driver’s side of the hood as “safety catch”, when it keeps opening up my bald patina.”

Thanks.  Ed

[Naj ✝︎]

Ed,
What engine and chassis numbers have you got. Late (70/71) engines may not have this chunky tea pot.

I suspect your engine looks like the one in the picture. The two water hoses connect to the thermostat tower on the injection pump


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The air pipe runs to the back of the engine.The one next to the li'lle air filter.

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naj

[George Davis]

Ed,

the larger metal pipe that runs in front with the injector pipes is in fact a coolant pipe, it's for the throttle body heat.  If this isn't getting hot like the heater hoses, there is blockage somewhere.

George Davis
'69 280 SL Euro manual

[Ed Fisher]

Naj:

Whoo-hoo!  Your picture exactly matches the way that my WRD is hooked up!  That is a great relief.  At least now I know that I have the later block even though there were no stampings on it.

Those two hoses going into and out of the thermostat tower are not getting nearly as hot as the heater hoses were, so George I do now suspect a blockage.  Does anyone have any ideas on where to look first?  It seems that the thermostat is opening nicely.  By the way, are the “thermostat tower” and “WRD” the same thing, or, have I been referring to it incorrectly this whole time?  I feel that I could be getting closer and closer now with each passing picture/post.  Thank you so much.

I am going to take some pictures as soon as possible, since that seems to be the best possible way to show/explain.  I have many more questions about kluged wiring.  For instance, where is the wire from my CSV supposed to come from?  I really think that I will wire it up to the cockpit, since I read that was an elegant solution, but am still curious.

I really hope y’all don’t get tired of me asking/searching, but I have a renewed vigor now that is fueled by hope.  This really is kind of fun, with such a supportive group out there; now if my head would just heal…

Ed
   

[rwmastel]

quote:Originally posted by Ed Fisher

I have a 1964 230sl with a later engine block in it (no stamp on stamp plate).

Ed,
Have you found an engine number on your block?  It should be stamped into the flat spot on the block, below the head, below the space between spark plugs 5 & 6.

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both  tops
1994 E420

[rwmastel]

quote:Originally posted by Ed Fisher

I have a 1964 230sl with a later engine block in it (no stamp on stamp plate).

Ed,
Have you found an engine number on your block?  Is this what you mean by "no stamp"?  It was not only on a plate rivited to the block, but also stamped into the flat spot on the block, below the head, below the space between spark plugs 5 & 6.  Use a small flash light that you can put very near the surface.

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both  tops
1994 E420

[Ed Fisher]

Rodd:

I have looked previously for the engine number stamped on the block and there is none.  Will Samples even looked during a brief visit to his shop and agreed that it was indeed not there.  However, he told me that it was not altogether uncommon for a replacement Mercedes block to be blank on that surface.  The previous owner told me that the block had been replaced early in the car’s life, when the female owner in Dallas overheated it severely.  The car now has an upgraded radiator in it and runs relatively coolly, when I don’t have the timing too retarded…

I hope that I will be able to sort out, with help, what changes happened, and will be transferable between a 1964 chassis and a 1970 (or so) engine block.

Thanks for asking Rodd.  Keep those questions coming!

Ed

[Naj ✝︎]

Ed,
That engine could well be from a 70/71 280SE.
That distributor (0 231 116 068) certainly is!!

naj

65 230SL
68 280SL

[Ed Fisher]

Naj:

Thanks for that piece of information!  Whatever it is, it certainly is a torquey lil' thing.  When running right I hope it is smooth as well.  Do you have any further insight on the timing other than what Will Sample said Naj?  He mentioned something about the torque curve, but said that basic timing shouldn't be different.

Ed

[George Davis]

Ed,

the thing you call the "thermostat tower" is the upper part of the WRD; I'd call it the WRD thermostat housing.  Referring to the entire assembly as the WRD is probably easiest, unless more specificity is needed.

To check for blockage in the WRD or its coolant hoses, I suggest you just start disconnecting hoses and see if coolant runs out, and/or try blowing through the hoses.  It might help to remove the radiator cap from the expansion tank.  Probably the most likely places for blockage are in the WRD thermostat housing itself, or the coolant (preheat) passage in the throttle body.

The wire for the CSV comes out of the wiring loom near the CSV on my car.  Maybe there is a loose or cut wire nearby?  Even if you find the wire, sorting out the wiring for the CSV could get complicated, because there are a couple of electrical components in the CSV operating system that can fail.  Probably deserves its own discussion when you're ready to tackle it, 'though I suggest you wait until the WRD, timing and idle adjustments are sorted out.

Oh yeah, I'm sorry about your head.  Being bald myself I understand.  Be forewarned that you are embarking on a long and arduous journey into the depths of darkest Pagodadom, and you will bleed from many more places before you're done!  It's good that you've started out on the easy stuff...

George Davis
'69 280 SL Euro manual

[Ed Fisher]

George:

Thanks for the laugh, and the empathy about my scalp wound.  Actually, I have burns and scrapes, as well as a chewed up scalp so my coworkers here at good old Texas Instruments have been asking me what I have been fighting with lately.  Oh the joys of being a "do it yourselfer".

I think I now understand the terminology in the Warm Running Device.  Thank you for the clarification.  I will check for blockages, especially in the throttle body, since coolant being presented to the WRD is not as hot as a heater hose, or at least to my touch doesn’t seem to be.  I am very interested in a coolant passage in a throttle body anyway.

You are exactly right about the CSV.  I had better learn to crawl before I try to walk.

I’ve got to say, that I was particularly excited about the picture that Naj sent of the engine compartment with an engine that resembled mine.  Prior to that, I feared that a Frankenstein transfer had taken place and there was not much chance in making it all compatible.  I will ask Naj further questions about that in the future, as in whether or not that was even his car.

I’ll try to get some investigation done this weekend and report to the group on Monday.

Ed

[ja17]

Hello Ed,
You must have good compression in all six cylinders, spark to all six, and fuel to all six. It will not idle in gear unless it is running on all six.

Check plugs, (replace if them if any doubt, even if they are new, you can always use them )
Check compression (remember it will not idle in gear if you have a dead cylinder),
Check ignition wires and ends with an ohm meter (here again you  must have fire to all six!)
Check fuel supply last this is complex and can be expensive and covers the entire injection   system and fuel feed system, linkages, warm up devices, starting aids and precise adjustments.

The fact that your car ran good for a while indicates that possibly a spark plug became fuel soaked or fouled and you are not running on all cylinders. Finding the cause will be your challenge!


Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio

[Ed Fisher]

Good morning all:

News from the front…

Firstly, just for background, the numbers from my cylinder head are:  130 016 32 01 280 SE/A.  It has been determined that my motor configuration is for a 1970/71 280, perhaps SE because my distributor number suggests that is so.  My chassis is a 1964 230sl.  

This weekend I was mostly elbows deep in WRD and throttle body.  I set my timing to 30ATDC and locked it down.  I left my vacuum advance hose disconnected, as it caused the car to stall and right now and I can’t troubleshoot with it connected.  Will Samples suggested that I just leave it off.  I don’t want to do that permanently, but for now it will just have to do.

My WRD thermostat tower gets hot, but the coolant line to the throttle body does not.  The WRD was not shutting off the supplemental air/fuel.  I took off the WRD thermostat tower and verified the movement of the piston inside the WRD.  The piston moves nicely within its slide, with significant pressure, as the spring is stiff.  There is a brass spacer, about 6mm in thickness, between the thermostat tower and the WRD.  I took it out and the WRD did manage to shut off the fuel/air, but I didn't think that was right so I put back the spacer.  My guess is that I have a blockage as was suggested earlier.  I then took off the throttle body and found that the lower port for the coolant outlet had a hose connected to it and terminated in a dead plug.  My question:  Shouldn't this route back into the coolant system somewhere to permit flow?  If so, where does it go?

I did manage to take it out for a spin while the spacer was removed from the WRD.  It ran well and even wanted to idle when in gear, if the engine was good and warm.  The idle drops from 1100 out of gear to 500 in gear (no CSS).  After sitting for awhile and started, it didn’t idle well at all until fully warming again.  

I did read my plugs Joe, and they were brownish.  Not black and not white, but a dark tan.  Looked good to me.  I will do a compression check at first chance.

I forgot to watch the timing mark when hooking up the vacuum advance to see how much it was moving.  I will do that as soon as I get time.

I’m learning the basics here, bit by bit.  Thank you all.

Ed

[George Davis]

Ed,

the attached photo shows where the hose from the throttle body goes on my car, it's the part that's circled.  There is a banjo fitting and short section of pipe from the front of the engine that the hose connects to.  I'm guessing your engine doesn't have this(?).

Sorry about the quality of the photo, limited editing ability.

I would further guess that you could put a tee into the expansion tank overflow hose (indicated by the arrow) and connect the hose from the throttle body to the tee.  I think the coolant flow will be in the right direction, it should go head>WRD>throttle body>wherever.  Coolant may not flow as quickly as it will with the correct set up, but any flow is better than no flow.  The engine may take slightly longer to warm up, but I doubt it will be noticable.

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George Davis
'69 280 SL Euro manual