Bring a Trailer Pagoda prices

[thelews]

I'm starting to see resto-mod 190 and Pagodas showing up on a regular basis on Bat and other sites. I don't care much for them but when I see club presidents praising the efforts of completely bastardized examples I really have to wonder what's going on.

What's going on is you've gotten old and the market is changing.  The market is moving toward vintage styling and modern comfort, performance and reliability.  You may not like it, but the buyers with the bucks do and that market is growing across many marques.

[Benz Dr.]

What's going on is you've gotten old and the market is changing.  The market is moving toward vintage styling and modern comfort, performance and reliability.  You may not like it, but the buyers with the bucks do and that market is growing across many marques.

That may be true but I see NO value in encouraging people to hack up perfectly decent cars. If they do, that's on them and it's their car that they can do with as they please. The reason why so many resto-mod American iron is because the vast majority of it was junk when it was new and you can only improve it by doing so. Not so with our cars that were beyond modern even when new. 

Either we're committed to preserving original cars or we aren't. Praising those who would turn a 113 into something that it isn't and was never meant to be is not what this club is or should be all about.

I'm old alright; old enough to know better.

[Benz Dr.]

Hi Dan

I have a R129 (1991) model and I think that there electrical problems are with the later post 1993 models that had issues with the wiring harness.

My car has only had issues with the distributor caps (known problem with moisture) but this was easily solved with upgraded caps. Other than the basic maintenance items, the only other common issue is the soft top hydraulics which again can be repaired with better & upgraded units (not expensive).

Touch wood, my car and other colleagues with R129s have not experienced issues with electrical components, although the later cars may be more prone, especially the models that had the M113 engine & 5 speed 722.6 auto

The earlier models with the M119 engine and the four-speed 722.3X autos are pretty bulletproof. My car is driven regularly and it's one of those cars that I can hop into and go anywhere without fear of stopping or breaking down.

Regards
Franjo

You've been lucky if that's the case. There are a number of fuses behind the back trunk panel that can give trouble and you might want to check and clean them. 129's go very cheap around here. I'm aware of the wiring harness problems which is another issue but it's the amplifiers that can really cause problems and are very expensive. My local climate is high humidity which probably doesn't help.

[franjo_66]

You've been lucky if that's the case. There are a number of fuses behind the back trunk panel that can give trouble and you might want to check and clean them. 129's go very cheap around here. I'm aware of the wiring harness problems which is another issue but it's the amplifiers that can really cause problems and are very expensive. My local climate is high humidity which probably doesn't help.

Hi Dan - I hear you about the humidity. That made the issue with the distributor caps even worse ! Took me a while until I figured this was a common issue. I have done the fuse checks at front & back. All in very good order and terminals have no corrosion etc. Given that this version uses the CIS set up, it is pretty robust. I think the M119 is one of the best Mercedes engines ever made !

I guess a lot comes down to how the car is looked after and stored. But I would not buy the later R129s. More problems, unnecessary added complexity and the M113 engine, which in itself is a good engine, is nowhere near the M119. I have had cars with both, and the M119 is many notches above. Mine has zero oil consumption, no leaks, engine temp stays pegged at 80C. I personally think its one of the best Mercs ever built (ie early version V8 models).

Regards
Franjo

[thelews]

That may be true but I see NO value in encouraging people to hack up perfectly decent cars. If they do, that's on them and it's their car that they can do with as they please. The reason why so many resto-mod American iron is because the vast majority of it was junk when it was new and you can only improve it by doing so. Not so with our cars that were beyond modern even when new. 

Either we're committed to preserving original cars or we aren't. Praising those who would turn a 113 into something that it isn't and was never meant to be is not what this club is or should be all about.

I'm old alright; old enough to know better.

Who says they were perfectly decent cars to begin with?  You don't know, nor I.  No matter how advanced Mercedes 50's technology was, it isn't compared to current technology, performance and reliability.  I don't think anyone is encouraging restomodded cars in a particular marque, just admiring the effort and final product.  There is more than an abundant supply of preserved and restored cars to relative factory originality, that market has been thoroughly exploited, hence the move by some to take the styling (which they like) of the era to another dimension (and bypass what they don't like).

As far as preserving original cars, I think the $100K 560 SL is testament that market is alive and well.

[MikeSimon]

Dan: I am totally with you. But we are fighting a battle we cannot win. I stopped arguing with the people in another community, who think sticking a Porsche flat six into a 914-4 will make it a greater car.

[Benz Dr.]

Who says they were perfectly decent cars, to begin with?  You don't know, nor I.  No matter how advanced Mercedes 50's technology was, it isn't compared to current technology, performance, and reliability.  I don't think anyone is encouraging resto modded cars in a particular marque, just admiring the effort and final product.  There is more than an abundant supply of preserved and restored cars to relative factory originality, that market has been thoroughly exploited, hence the move by some to take the styling (which they like) of the era to another dimension (and bypass what they don't like).

As far as preserving original cars, I think the $100K 560 SL is a testament that the market is alive and well.

Generally, I agree with you but:
I do know how good a 113 is because I've been working on them for 35 years. They're one hell of a lot better than most cars were in their day and are still very tractable in modern traffic.
I'm speaking only in terms of what we, as a club who are trying to preserve original cars, should be promoting. Personally speaking, I would be very dismayed to find our club president praising the efforts of any resto-modded 113 on our site.  He may in fact privately admire the work; that's his call and there's a separate forum for those to do so. However, facts to the contrary hold no water for me. Either we are about original cars or we aren't. And if we aren't, then why have a club at all? Why even bother?

I'm speaking to everyone here.  Make your choice and make it now, because the resto-mod crowd is on its way.       

[thelews]

Generally, I agree with you but:
I do know how good a 113 is because I've been working on them for 35 years. They're one hell of a lot better than most cars were in their day and are still very tractable in modern traffic.
I'm speaking only in terms of what we, as a club who are trying to preserve original cars, should be promoting. Personally speaking, I would be very dismayed to find our club president praising the efforts of any resto-modded 113 on our site.  He may in fact privately admire the work; that's his call and there's a separate forum for those to do so. However, facts to the contrary hold no water for me. Either we are about original cars or we aren't. And if we aren't, then why have a club at all? Why even bother?

I'm speaking to everyone here.  Make your choice and make it now, because the resto-mod crowd is on its way.     

I guess I never saw a mission statement for the club, so, if preserving originality is it, then your position vis a vis the club is well taken.  And, I thoroughly agree the 113 is a great piece of engineering and a very drivable car even by today's standards and I see little need for improvement.  The 190 SL?  Well, not so much, not even close to a 113.

[mdsalemi]

I guess I never saw a mission statement for the club

Seriously? It's in our charter needed for incorporation, and also for us to secure 501 c 7 non-profit status.
It's also shown in and on every Pagoda World.
It's here: https://www.sl113.org/wiki/About/Charter
It's all online here. Full transparency. Nothing hidden.

Summarized:

The purpose of the Pagoda SL Group is to facilitate the sharing of information and to encourage communications among enthusiasts related to the Mercedes W113 cars. The Club seeks to assist with the care, restoration, collection and preservation of these classic cars.

[thelews]

Seriously? It's in our charter needed for incorporation, and also for us to secure 501 c 7 non-profit status.
It's also shown in and on every Pagoda World.
It's here: https://www.sl113.org/wiki/About/Charter
It's all online here. Full transparency. Nothing hidden.

Summarized:

The purpose of the Pagoda SL Group is to facilitate the sharing of information and to encourage communications among enthusiasts related to the Mercedes W113 cars. The Club seeks to assist with the care, restoration, collection and preservation of these classic cars.

Forgive me, I never read it.  Nothing about originality.

[Chris Long]

Not trying to get in the middle of this but your footer states a large number of ‘mods’ to your red rocket.

[doitwright]

I have been following this post. Rarely do I feel I want to jump in a share some of my own 2 cents but end up biting my tongue. But my tongue is about to be severed from my mouth. It seems there is a foggy distinction between what some want to believe and reality. Reality is that things sell for what the market in a given arena is willing to pay. There may be only 2 or 3 people who each want the same thing bad enough to spend more than what we think it is worth. Yet they are the ones forking out the cash. Their cash. Not my cash. Perhaps they will be happy or dismayed with their purchase. But what has been discussed here is actually going on everywhere. I could not believe what my neighbor just sold his house for. But someone just bought it. Airbnb stock opened at $68 last December and today was above $190. Many experts still argue that the company stock is worth that much. But there it is.

[Benz Dr.]

Not trying to get in the middle of this but your footer states a large number of ‘mods’ to your red rocket.

Some are rare options and some are mods but all are done with vintage parts all collected from the time period when the 113 was current. I used parts that were both newer and older than my car ( 1966 ) such as early 230SL exhaust headers, a 22mm saw bar from a 111 coupe, a 280SL fuel tank, 280SL seats, 280SL LSD axle, 250SE engine from a 111 coupe, power steering from a 230SL, 230SL camshaft with offset woodruff key, and an ignition distributor from a 1965 300SE. There is nothing newer than 1971. I  bought the car in 1993 with the ZF 5 speed option.

 I did all of this work about 20 - 25 years ago and long before this club existed.  There are very few high-performance parts available for our cars and I wanted to see what I could do with available items from the '60's.  Anyone could do the same thing if they wanted to search out all of those parts. 

[thelews]

 I did all of this work about 20 - 25 years ago and long before this club existed. 

But, if the club had existed you wouldn't have?  Point is, you did what you wanted and created a 113 that you enjoy(ed) and that others (113 interested) can admire and learn from.  Same with restomods.

[Benz Dr.]

But, if the club had existed you wouldn't have?  Point is, you did what you wanted and created a 113 that you enjoy(ed) and that others (113 interested) can admire and learn from.  Same with restomods.

No, not even close.

[mdsalemi]

There seems to be a penchant, perhaps more prevalent in the USA than other countries, of keeping classic/collectible Mercedes-Benz cars in their "as delivered" state. This is when compared to other countries, and when compared to other marques such as Audi, Porsche and BMW.

There are very few shops/firms that modify MBs, but of those that do--Lorinser, Brabus and Kleeman, for example--most are not in the USA. Yes, I know about RennTech and Weisstech.

Compare that to those aforementioned marques: take a look in their club magazines (Quattro, Panorama and Roundel) and you'll see a large number of firms doing all kinds of modifications. You simply don't see it at that level for MB here in the USA. Porsche aficionados also have a name for the modified cars: "outlaw".

I think there is more respect for the kind of mods that Dr. Benz has done on his Pagoda and on 190SLs than say, that small block Ford V8 that was shoehorned into a Pagoda some years back and featured in The Star magazine (complete with aftermarket polished valve covers engraved with "Mercedes-Benz" on them...)

I think the long history of the Classic Center and factory support of many of their cars (this barely exists at other marques) may have something to do with it.

As for our charter, no, we don't mention "restomods". We also don't mention "modification". We do mention communications, restoration and preservation...but note we do have a forum topic on modifications and research.

[merrill]

adding to the thread of retro mods

mechatronic has been modifying sl's for a long time.  Gernold at sl tech is or used to be a usa rep for them

https://www.mechatronik.de/en/new-tech/m-sl/

supposidly they take an sl, install new MB drive train  BUT with no mods that cannot be undone so you can re install the original equip.

[mclewis]

If I remember correctly, there are a couple of members that have converted their W113s to V8s. One member (GRR?) did it himself and posted a lengthy and seemingly popular thread a while back.  Another had Jim Cosgrove at Oldtimer Restoration Center (who has worked on my 280SL) in Harvard, MA do the job.

[Benz Dr.]

Using MB parts and keeping with the element of high build standards is not so odious to me. Sticking a non-MB drive train in it kind of is. A 3.5 in a 280SL doesn't bother me much because it's still within the time frame of the build - vintage modified, and you haven't made the car unsafe to drive.

 

 

[PSB]

I have a friend who has been a jaguar fanatic for many years ... Classic cars but even his modern ones are jaguar. He has xk120,140,150 fixed head and convertible  few e-types, Mkii etc. all his cars were impeccable and restored to super original standards . He can buy in any condition and after a couple of years I would see  them beautifull restored . Ex president of jaguar club.
He is in his sixties now ....bought another series I e-type ..... And now it was all resto mod......brakes, suspension, aircon etc etc .... Anything that could make it safer and more confortabe to drive as long as the exterior looks didn't change . surprise , it's now his favorite classic and the one he will drive more often... I never would never have thought that he would be "converted " , but he has . And it's a great drive...So agree , the rest mods are here and they're here to stay and grow. Electric engines on these will be thing that will keep these cars alive in the not so distant future

[teahead]

This thread sure took a turn

[MikeSimon]

My point is very simple (but still will spawn discussions!): When is an original vehicle no longer what the original designation describes..? What makes a W113? What makes a 1974 911RS Carrera?
What makes a Honda CBX (it's a motorcycle!)?.. Name the key ingredients. Change some of them and then ask: Is this still what it is supposed to be?

[JamesL]

Not the original colour/interior
£184,000

https://www.historics.co.uk/buying/auctions/2021-04-17/cars/ref-3-1969-mercedes-benz-280sl-jt/

And 230 at £87k
https://www.historics.co.uk/buying/auctions/2021-04-17/cars/ref-169-1966-mercedes-benz-230-sl-pagoda-sb/

280 at £65k
https://www.historics.co.uk/buying/auctions/2021-04-17/cars/ref-69-1970-mercedes-benz-280-sl-pagoda-dg/

123 TE £23k
https://www.historics.co.uk/buying/auctions/2021-04-17/cars/ref-125-1982-mercedes-benz-280-te-estate-seven-seat-dg/

[cascadia]

I think that one point that's missing from this discussion about BaT is the fact that their platform simply provides the buyer with more information than other sites provide. Numerous photos, including the undercarriage, and the ability for the seller to add more photos in response to specific questions. Add in a driving video and you get a much clearer picture of what you're considering buying.

That's why everyone left eBay. BaT "found a hole and filled it". Now Hemmings got in the act, Cars and Bids popped up (1981 and newer only), and even the major auction houses dipped their toe in the water of online auctioning. BaT's timing as the established market leader when COVID hit couldn't have been better. Lots of people stuck at home looking for some excitement in their lives. And lots people wanting to post their opinions, too! 

Upon submission to BaT, the car get vetted, the seller gets vetted, the title status get vetted, and fair or not, the commenters go on to vet it even further!
As to the prices, it's not unlike what you see at Mecum or Barrett-Jackson - sometimes unworthy cars sell for crazy money. But in the majority of cases, the big money goes to the cars that have great documentation, extensive photos, and engaged sellers. It all comes down to information.

[i_ralley]

Ok so this is a big delay but I finally got my car home purchased on bat.
In this case I’ve known the car my entire life.......yes I wish it was cheaper.
But it was the car.... the first 230sl I had ever seen as a young boy.
One owner we connected last week.
I brought it to his home it was so emotional.
Usually I only like buying deals.
Did I over pay....maybe.
But the dealer that purchased it from him put it on bat and I guess I’m lucky to get the chance to buy it .

Before I finalized the deal a buyer that had internet failure during the auction called and ask how much for me to step aside....
Does this mean the price was good???
Still not sure

But In the end the car is home. It’s amazing and I’m glad to have the opportunity.
True my bank account is well....thin now.
Anyways maybe I’ve checked one of life’s boxes Or overpaid for an old car.
Time will tell.

I will mention I’m glad people from this forum chimed in if it wasn’t for the auction I wouldn’t have known about this amazing resource.