Complete Brake replacement and AC replacement repair job for 1970 280SL

[CromeYellow]

The car has been pretty much been fully restored as far as engine rebuild and also re-coated, re-painted the underside and engine compartment.  Put in about $7000. worth of genuine Mercedes parts along the way.  I have avoided putting even one bolt into the car that wasn't brand new genuine Mercedes.

The mechanic I am working with wants $15,000. to redo the entire brake system and AC.  This would be with genuine brand new Mercedes parts, and includes replacing pretty much everything A to Z according to the attached estimate.  He says that between waiting for parts to arrive and the work itself will take eight weeks.

BUT - I understand that I could put in something like Cardone remanufactured parts and these would be the same as Mercedes genuine?  Where can we get such parts.

Attached is the mechanic's estimate.  If anyone in the Southern California area wants to do the job, send me a PM.  I am being told that $15,000. is high.

Below are just a few of dozens of pictures I have of the process, which has been ongoing in earnest for about eight months.

[CJHenderson]

Thanks for the great photos, will help me for orientations of several parts.

[Cees Klumper]

I don't know about the AC system, but just a few years ago I bought all new ATE calipers for as I recall around EUR 1,000. Brake lines, pads, discs etc should not cost that much and the labor maybe a day at most? Master brake cylinder and booster may be pricey from Mercedes, but normal prices for those would be a few hundred. So figure $2,200 in parts for the brakes, and $800 labor if around $100/hr, so $3,000 for the brakes? I replaced the discs and calipers myself, not a complicated job.

[doitwright]

If this was my project, I would at least ask to have the estimate separated into parts, labor, AC and Brakes.

With the AC, a complete kit from Buds Benz is around $2500 not including the special pulley needed if adding a compressor but you are upgrading an existing system so the pulley is already there. The only thing practically reusable from an existing AC system would be the under dash bulkhead. If the evaporator does not pass a pressure test it should be replaced. If the evaporator gets reused, it must be properly flushed to remove any refrigerant oil from the previous setup especially if R-12 was used as the refrigerant.

Other components to replace are the condenser, compressor (replace York with Sanden Rotary), replace blower with new Spal, new hoses, drier, evaporator thermostat and expansion valve.

Additional upgrades worthy of consideration would be the Sedan Compressor bracket conversion and addressing the already hot running 280 engine temps.

[CromeYellow]

The background on this car, is that I am the first owner (at least, it has always been in our family, I am the second generation owner within the same family).

Some years ago I drove the car without enough oil in the engine and top part of the engine blew.  Two mechanics and years later, the car was returned to me with many parts missing, the engine put back together not quite right, and this third mechanic did the work of figuring out what was missing, replacing all that with all genuine Mercedes brand new parts, and doing the complete engine rebuild and recoating and repainting of the underside after sand blasting and cleaning all the parts.  It is in the process of looking great again.

The first two mechanics charged me very little, but accomplished less than nothing.  This third mechanic has charge me real money, but delivered real results.

Because the car sat around so long, years, now 3/4 calipers are frozen, and the mechanic feels that it would be unsafe to do anything less than replace everything A to Z in the brake system.

As far as the AC, the hoses all cracked over the years of sitting idle, and he feels that that system too should be replaced A to Z, and converted to R134.

I don't want to put anything in the car that's not genuine Mercedes, and am willing to pay the premium.  But I understand that Cardone sells remanufactured Mercedes parts that are genuine, at a fraction of the brand new price.  How do I get these Cardone parts?

I don't have a problem with the complete re-do - just with the $15K price I am being quoted.

This guy has done a great job, but I think the project is getting over budget.  Compared to how much he charged me for the more difficult and more time consuming work he did before, I think $15K may be excessive for replacement of brake and AC system.

[kampala]

Rockauto sells front calipers rebuilt by Cardone.    I could not fine rears so had a rebuild shop rebuild mine with Mercedes rebuild kit. 

Fronts:
https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/mercedes-benz,1970,280sl,2.8l+l6,1193497,brake+&+wheel+hub,caliper,1704

[WRe]

Hi,
to renew your whole brake system you need new callipers and brake disks with pads plus fluid and new hoses. Eventually new cover plates, brake lines and clamps.
Genuine parts are made by ATE, are available and will cost you not more than 2.000€ (see https://www.daparto.de/Ersatzteile/Mercedes-Benz-SL-Pagode-W113/2-1211-?kbaTypeId=931#category-1456-1456) and should be done in one day (maybe except the lines).
New brake booster (yours looks still good) and master cylinder will cost you 400€.
I would start with brake callipers which can be refurbished with new pistons and rubbers for 20€ each (see https://www.daparto.de/Teilenummernsuche/FRENKIT/257926?categoryId=1541&kbaTypeId=931). I've just done it last summer, no rocket science.
...WRe

[stickandrudderman]

You've had a bad experience with two previous mechanics but you like this one.
the price does seem high but if you like him maybe you shpould just tell him that you're very happy with his work thus far and are a bit taken aback by the latest estimate and could he break it down so you can better understand what you're paying for.

[MarkCan]

The first two mechanics charged me very little, but accomplished less than nothing.  This third mechanic has charge me real money, but delivered real results.

I don't have a problem with the complete re-do - just with the $15K price I am being quoted.

This guy has done a great job, but I think the project is getting over budget.  Compared to how much he charged me for the more difficult and more time consuming work he did before, I think $15K may be excessive for replacement of brake and AC system.

I think you found yourself the trustworthy mechanic. Keep the dialogue open and ask for suggestions. Probably you can address the A/C at the later date.
I bet you that 2/3 of the estimate is going towards it.
Channeling the resources towards the “rolling restoration”  is perfectly understandable.
Good mechanics like to see the fruits of their labour as well.

Thank you for posting your progress pics.

[Shvegel]

Too bad I don't live in California.  I would do the job and send you to the Bahamas for a week for that money.  I normally make a point of not messing with another man's livelihood but not only is his pricing suspect giving you what amounts to a one line price so you can't look anything up for yourself is really off putting.

Do your own math.  Ate is the original OEM supplier for calipers, rotors, master cylinders etc.  Mercedes front brake rotors are $400 each which is robbery.  Most likely Brembo or Ate anyway (I prefer Ate) and they are $40 each.

https://www.pelicanparts.com/catalog/SuperCat/5740_catalog.htm

If your goal is to retain as many of the original AC parts as possible and just convert it to 134a your costs would be a few hundred dollars worth of hoses, expansion valve and refrigerant.  add four hundred to replace the original York compressor with a Sanden model.  Labor 16 hours max.

[CromeYellow]

Actually this mechanic gives me all of the original receipts for whatever parts he buys, not to justify what he charges me, but so that I may have a record in case I ever sell the car.  Also he sends me detailed pictures every few days, I have dozens.

And that is the quandary.  I want to just write a check but $15K to redo the brakes and AC seems excessive.  I am sure he will do a stellar job, I mean the detail he put into recoating and repainting the bottom of the car, engine compartment and such was exceptional.   The paint he used was oil based which is the correct factory paint for this, and isn't even available in California, he had to get it from out of state, using connections.  Most mechanic shops would not have done that, would have simply said, sorry, I am not allowed to use that paint in this state.  He could have easily skimped on the recoating and painting process and the sand blasting and cleaning a dozen times and I would never have known it.

And then when it turned out that he had made a mistake and painted gold the engine parts that should have been cadmium plated (he assumed they were painted), he took them all out and went ahead and sent the manifold and valve cover in for aluminum polishing too, at the same time as the other parts for plating, and didn't charge me any labor for taking all those parts off and sand blasting to remove the paint, nor will he charge me for putting them back, because he recognizes that it was his mistake to assume that those parts were painted versus plated.  All I know is this guy is treating the car like it's his own - his labor of love is apparent.  But, I think I'm paying him for that he's putting a lot of time into the car, and for the fact that the car will be on his rack taking up a bay for eight weeks while overseas parts come in, versus just for the time spent doing the job.

The prior two mechanics were honest too, but didn't really care about the car.  As mentioned, they charged me very little, but did less than nothing.

Anyway, while we are waiting for the parts to come back cadmium plated with the yellow chromate finish, and for the engine parts to come back alum polished, we have a couple of weeks.  He is happy to have me take the car elsewhere, he wouldn't mind.  But how much would I save going to a new mechanic is the question?

I am open to suggestions for a different mechanic in the Southern California area. But I am willing to pay the premium for all Mercedes parts, as that is what I have done so far.  Every part in this car that was not 100% factory was removed and replaced with Mercedes parts during this restoration job, and to a certain extent, I suppose I paid this mechanic too for his time in finding the parts, at least that is how he justified marking up the parts 35% (he also drove a lot all over Southern California examining and finding parts some of which he accepted, some of which he did not).

[inci]

Dear W113 Pagoda Owners,


$15k for a complete brake and A/C job should be considered as an unlawful act; a crime.  Even for the best of the best Mercedes-Benz meister in the world.  There are many very honest and trustworthy shops around, many have great reputation, BUT many are simply steal your money!

Rockauto reman ATE (official MB supplier) brake booster is $115.  ATE calipers are $35.  MC is $50. Rotors are $40.  Pads $20.  Hoses are $20 each.  Fluid $10. Lines are inexpensive.  Shops add their markup.  Supply, tools, rent, worker’s comp, etc, etc.  Labor; 4-5hrs for me. (if you need to form the lines. A/C compressor is $200. Complete A/C and Brake job should not exceed (depending on location and the MB Meister working on it),  $3-4-5k at the most.  A valid reason for someone would pay the top dollar to an experienced MB shop is not only the quality of the workmanship, but also, they should have the knowledge to compete the job very safely and quickly.

If someone is asking for outrages prices, do the right thing, and post here for help and support.

I have seen many people buying lemon cars over the years, people take advantage of newbies, and offered my (free) help in the LA area. 
I am now back to Birmingham, AL, however, always available for free consultation over the phone for any reason or just to say hi.

[CromeYellow]

I want to compare Apples to Apples.  How much will someone else charge me to put all brand new 100% Mercedes parts into the car for complete replacement of brake and AC systems, is the question.  His invoice lists A to Z replacement of everything, and if there is one thing I know about this mechanic, he will really do it.  He really will replace every single thing end to end, and he really will use all Mercedes parts, all new.

He gives me all the original invoices for all parts he buys - not to back up what he charges, but for my records.  My family knows the guy socially for thirty years.  I wish I had gone to him first and not wasted a lot of years (and a small amount of dollars) with the first two mechanics, but somehow, that ended up not being the case.   Time is money too.

This guy wants $15,000. for that.

[CromeYellow]

I just talked for a long time to one of the local restoration job mechanics recommended to me by someone on this forum.  This mechanic didn’t think he would necessarily save me any money after I told him the price I was quoted, and recommended staying with the guy I am with.  For one thing, he said that if I pull the car now it practically releases the current guy from warrantying the work he has done so far, as it might become hard to figure out who is to blame if something goes wrong later.

On the AC work alone, he said it could get into 30 to 40 hours of work, depending on what exactly needs to be done.

However, one thing he said that makes perfect sense is that ideally, would want to preserve as many of the original parts as possible, versus change them all, to keep the car as original as possible.

[Cees Klumper]

You are clearly very comfortable with this mechanic. You trust him, know he will deliver quality, and then you have in addition a firm standard for using only Mercedes original parts - even when the same part, but in an ATE rather than MB box, could cost 80% less - you want the MB part. Some of us here believe the cost associated with these choices is (much too) steep, but no one can look inside your pocket book and, in the end, you have to be comfortable and that's really what matters. I have made some conscious decisions to invest in restoring part of our home in France, when I could have also just had it torn down and saved myself tens of thousands that I know I will never recoup if and when we would ever sell; that was a sentimental rather than rational decision. It sounds like your car will be as good as it can be once done, and I look forward to seeing that result.

[johnk]

Just to make sure you are aware, there are no original Mercedes AC parts.

[CromeYellow]

I talked to him, and my uncle (who has known him for thirty years), talked to him, and he's adamant that everything should be replaced not rebuilt if he is to be the one doing the job.  This mechanic has worked on Mercedes for fifty years.  He says the engine runs so smoothly now that you can't even hear it or detect any vibration, I mean he took it apart and rebuilt it perfectly

Anyway, another thing I didn't realize is that it's not just a brake and AC job, he wants to replace much if not all of the clutch and clutch master cylinder, and related transmission parts, and that was included in the price too.

Anyway, I am paying him the $15K and the job will be done.

After this, I will have him repaint the car as he has a body shop too, and then someone will redo the interior completely.  Besides the value of the car, the car means a lot to me as it has been in our family from my father to me.  It was bought brand new from Mercedes in L.A. and remained in our family ever since.

The reason it got to this point requiring such a restoration, is mostly because it was left at the first mechanic I sent it to, in Northern California, for something like nine years it sat there (inside, protected, but just sitting there), and those guys didn't know what they were doing and lost a bunch of engine parts, sensors were missing, and they left all sorts of wires disconnected - including for example the power to the AC compressor, those wires aren't even there somehow they got lost.  I was referred to them by a friend who is now upset that his referral didn't work out.  It wasn't entirely the shop's fault, as in, 2 of the 3 mechanics who owned the shop actually died during those nine years, and the remaining mechanic ended up selling the building and closing the business, at which point he returned the car to me in the condition that led me to decide that I wanted it restored completely.  That first shop charged me almost nothing, but did less than nothing.

Then I took it to a second shop, local to me, where the guy showed me a 280SE he had restored, so I figured he knew what he was doing, but after a year, and not much money but a waste of time, I gave up on him and took the car to this third mechanic who is my uncle's old friend, and this third mechanic has charged me real money, but delivered real results, and worked on the car diligently.

I'll have more pics and updates eventually.

[DaveB]

That will probably work out for the best, and at least saves you from the uncertainty of moving the car yet again. I guess his high price factors in some time-consuming problems that will inevitably arise in doing the job to their standard (and possibly some of the problems already encountered and overcome in the previous work). Mercedes' parts pricing creates a new and unfortunate reality for restorations (especially with 35% on top - that's steep). The 10x markup on brake rotors mentioned by Shvegel being a good example. As far as I'm aware the rotors don't even have a stamped star and part number for consolation. It is, however, surprising how low the prices for rebuilt brake parts are in the US. $115 for a booster rebuild and $35 for a rebuilt ATe caliper are definitely 'rock' bottom. I guess those rebuilds must be trustworthy, given the safety implications of getting it wrong. I just don't see how they can do it for the price. The people doing the work are surely not getting paid enough. Are they done locally or overseas?

Given that your car's paint and interior (from what little is visible) seem ok, maybe consider just cleaning and detailing, especially if the seat covers are good (internal padding can be renewed). The original materials are high quality and by now have some inbuilt history. New looks great but so too does old. I see now why good patina is valued. This wheel and hubcap, for example, which I initially thought looked rough, look great to me now. Which is of course why the Blockley company chose them to advertise their tire.

[CromeYellow]

Parts are starting to arrive as the job progresses.

[CromeYellow]

Engine parts came back from polishing / cadmium plating place.

[Garry]

Don’t want to ruin your day but.... I think spending $30 on membership and gaining access to the tech manual to get the correct finishes to items will pay for itself after you avoid one mistake.


Did you ask for your rocker cover and inlets to be polished? as originally not polished.  Pity but i think peening  will restore them

[Benz Dr.]

Original MB parts in ATE and FEBI boxes?  It's what I use and there's nothing wrong with them but I won't pay MB prices for them.

[CromeYellow]

Yes I asked for and paid for the valve cover and manifold to be polished.  If I ever sell the car I doubt the buyer on that day is going to ask for them to be returned to beat up old looking condition.  It's a one owner car (my father and I) so I suppose I may say that I am entirely responsible for it in all respects.

Nothing rebuilt is going into the car.

[johnk]

Attached it the original style finish that vapor blasting will take you back to. Not beat up and dirty at all. Just nice smooth original finish. A buyer that appreciates all of the original MB parts you put into will appreciate the original finish more than polished.  Vapor blasting leaves a smooth finish that cleans fairly easy amd does not require a clear paint finish to protect it.

  Vapor blasting my valve cover cost me $30.

Of course if you like the polished look more that is what is most important.

[CromeYellow]

Well, the car hasn't been sold to anyone not since the day it was bought new from the dealer in L.A., and I don't have any plans to sell it.  I understand what you mean.

https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=21058.msg150218#msg150218

https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=79.0

https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=30259.0

I wasn't planning on clear coating over the polished finish?  Should I?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-6_EpDh0jI
https://www.eastwood.com/exoarmour.html