Any advice on this 280SL for sale

[sl113newguy]

Hello everyone-
I’ve been trying to educate myself on W113 details for a good amount of time (here, other sites, books, driving,...sadly not a PagodaFest yet!), have been watching cars for sale, but unfortunately haven’t found one yet. A number of individuals here I’ve exchanged messages with said it was OK to post links to W113s for sale to ask for feedback (I didn’t want to run afoul of any rules on posting, but admins please feel free to delete if I am...).

With that...I wanted to hear if anyone here has thoughts on this one currently for sale:
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1970-mercedes-benz-280sl-81/
If there are items that you would fix, and what things aren't correct/original but you would never bother to fix, etc. I'm trying to learn more about what others focus on as I continue to learn.

One specific question I have from this (and some other) recent auctions -
I hear many ask about spot welds and fender notches - when those no longer visible, say at the rear, or fender notches…are they most often gone forever? Or if removed as a result of filling/painting can they be brought back if the car is painted again?

And of course...if anyone sees another for sale that they recommend checking out, feel free to drop me a note anytime. I’m looking for an automatic, preferably little/no work required, matching #s would seem to be useful. It will be a fairly frequent driver and certainly not car, so no concern if it has issues here and there (some I could fix over time, maybe not depending on cost). And if I was picky (which I’m not), it would be a later 250SL or a 280.

Thanks all and happy holidays -

[Pawel66]

Hi! And welcome!

Almost any car will look good on the pictures - this one looks not bad too. Please get a professional to look at it before spending any money.

Do not believe in 72k miles, obviously, unless it is really documented in some reliable documents.

New paint, we do not know what is under. Alarming to me is one picture showing rust under paint on the fender flair. If rust is there, it can be everywhere and rust is the most important part of the evaluation of the car.

Stamped 4 last digits of the body number too clean.

Soft top to be replaced, upholstery to be looked at and probably renewed too (doors, soft top compartment lid cover, etc.).

Nice looking car, needs to be looked at, in my view, closely.

[Cees Klumper]

This looks like a nice Pagoda. The only thing that would worry me, as I just commented in the auction, is the beginning rust in the rear quarter panels that is also noted in one of the documents uploaded by the seller. Because that is 'a crack in the crystal' of an otherwise seemingly fine car. There's not much driving video so we can't tell how it really drives. In one of the videos it seems like the trans shifts up a bit abruptly, but who knows. The rust though it of course an issue. If like most people you have to have that done, it can be expensive fast. Plus if there's some rust in those quarter panels, it may be lurking elsewhere as well.
Still, looks like a nice car that may fetch around $80K, at least that's my hunch given the condition.
Oh it seems to have a replacement engine but since it's a most likely a correct 280 replacement engine I would not worry about that for one minute.
Fender notches and spot welds can be recreated (just as the original engine number can easily be added) but who are we kidding and who really cares.

[Garry]

Rust like showing in fenders is a big red flag.  If its there it will be in lots of other places.  It looks like it may be in the front cross member as well and certainly on the front fenders both in the engine bay and outside.


Tread carefully.


Garry.

[sl113newguy]

Thanks so much, everyone.

Regarding image 100 as an example - and I am assuming that the slight rippling effect is due to rust - does this tell us that the rust started post new paint? Or if it looks like this does it mean that the rust has been there a longer period of time and was simply painted over? Or do we not know?

@Cees - The engine number should be in the flat area below "280", correct? Thank you for mentioning.
If a W113 has a replacement engine does it have any impact on the value (setting aside if someone was trying to turn this into a concours car)? Or is this so common as I understand it, that it really has no impact?
I like what you say about "who really cares" about the spot welds  , but I guess in the end it probably does impact what some are willing to pay for the car, correct (though I guess debatable whether it should)?

@Pawel66 - I assume re body number you are referencing the one on the hood (pic 339)?

Thanks again everyone - I really appreciate it.

[johnk]

There are holes in the front floorboards that appear to be covered up. Even a patch on the  inside of the drivers side floor board. The engine bay shows an excessive amount of surface rust in areas. Looks like a car that has been exposed to a lot of moisture which will Cause problems not easily seen.

They do not show the trunk floor where it usually rusts and I believe I saw some added coating of some sort in the area. Other than the front of the floor boards they don’t show many of the areas common to rust in these cars.

I need to see the pics in my computer rather than just my iPhone as I thought I spotted more concerning areas underneath.

My bet is this is car has lots of covered up rust by recent paint. The current owner has only had the car for a year which makes it more suspicious. Would definately not buy this car without someone doing a full underneath inspection. I don’t see
It as an $80k car myself.

[Pawel66]

@Pawel66 - I assume re body number you are referencing the one on the hood (pic 339)?

The one inside the hood/bonnet, top left corner.

As for two of your other points: I think it is the rust that was there before the car was painted and it is still there.

I think the replacement engine is the smallest topic as far as this particular car is concerned. In general - there are numerous discussions on the replacement engines on the forum and their influence on value, search for "tauschaggregat" and you will be able to read through those discussions.

[Cees Klumper]

It looks like the cold start valve is not hooked up.
I agree $80K is too much for the car, but suspect it will reach that number in this auction based on where it already is now, but of course we'll see.
It's funny how with 450 or so photos we don't have any clear ones of the floors, where they typically rust anyway. Johnk is probably right, that rust there was either repaired (properly we hope) or just covered up. We do have that 'to whom it may concern' report about 'no structural rust' but I wonder about the definition of 'structural' that this is based on, in a unibody car like this.
My car has a non-numbered replacement engine and I don't care, but some people do so it has some indeterminate negative effect on the value. Yes, the engine number should be stamped (not engraved as the seller, who is a bit too casual in his responses I find for presenting himself as being so knowledgeable) below the '280' number on the head.
The car, beneath the shiny exterior and tidy interior, looks tired and a new owner could find herself or himself spending much money before too long. It does depend I think on the honest condition of any rust. If it's truly only very local and easy to remedy, then fine but if it's more serious then before you know it you're going for a full respray and a 'while we're in there' scenario. With parts prices ever climbing, a Pagoda can become an expensive hobby quickly.
I am glad I learned how to do metal/bodywork and spray painting this past year!

[john.mancini]

Too much evidence of rust issues. Rear valence has been repaired or replaced. Rust scares me to death on these cars. I would personally avoid this car. BaT "groupies" are very critical of negative comments, so you never really get a full critique of BaT cars. Walk on this one.

[MikeSimon]

The seller states that the body was "refinished", i.e.: repainted. The refinish of the fender notches was a little "overdone" as evident in picture 47. I cannot say that the engine is a replacement. The number is difficult to read, maybe ground off. Danger is, it has 171,000 miles instead of the 71,000 shown.

[bigbobbeach]

I think it comes down to passion. I'm on BAT and watched this one (and a ton of others!).
Personally I think it’s ridiculous what it sold for.
111K for a 90K 280sl.
It's a dime a dozen and it really came down to passion for the color combo.
Much less money for the same year/color 280sl’s on other sites.
BAT plays on passion and sometimes fools who get caught in the bidding war.
On BAT sometime you may win, sometimes you don’t meet the reserve!
--The rule is saty calm and set a limit.

[johnk]

I'm afraid someone is going to be very sorry once they get under their new $110k car poking around with a screwdriver.

[john.mancini]

There have been a number of very poor W113's that have sold on BaT for ridiculously high prices. Unsuspecting bidders and buyers get duped by all of the positive comments that are often made by cronies of the sellers. I once made some critical comments about a horrific 230SL that ended up selling for big money. I was blasted for the comments. In fact, one person commented that I must be from that "online Pagoda club". The "sale" is of the utmost importance on BaT. Helping prospective buyers is not.

[MikeSimon]

Well said, John!

[mdsalemi]

There have been a number of very poor W113's that have sold on BaT for ridiculously high prices. Unsuspecting bidders and buyers get duped by all of the positive comments that are often made by cronies of the sellers. I once made some critical comments about a horrific 230SL that ended up selling for big money. I was blasted for the comments. In fact, one person commented that I must be from that "online Pagoda club". The "sale" is of the utmost importance on BaT. Helping prospective buyers is not.

I have never looked at BaT. (NB. It's a personal thing. When they were just getting started, and the BaT creator a member of the MBCA, I reached out to him repeatedly to discuss some advertising when I was The Star's Ad Manager, in The Star magazine: relatively inexpensive exposure to a lot of buyers/sellers of collectible MBs. After repeated attempts by phone and email, never even the courtesy of a reply. It's OK to say no, or to discuss why you don't want to advertise. I got that all the time. It's the height of rudeness and poor manners and business practice to simply ignore an inquiry, or worse, not even answer your darn phone.)

Be reminded that the website's name is BaT. Bring a Trailer. That means a lot of junk which won't drive home under its own power. Pigs with lipstick.

That being said, john.mancini, if you so choose to comment again on BaT, and are blasted, time to lock and load and pull out the figurative double barrel 8-gauge and give it back to them in spades. You are without a doubt eminently qualified to render a useful and educated opinion on a Pagoda. While there's no fixing stupid I'm afraid, there's nothing like the truth to silence these kinds of fools.

[john.mancini]

Thank you Michael and Mike. Sadly, honesty is a disappearing quality. Thank goodness for our website, and the people like you two, who contribute insightful, meaningful tips and ideas to both new and experienced members.

[MikeSimon]

BaT has changed significantly. Yes, it is called "Bring a Trailer'" which indicated that you had to arrange for your own transport of non-running, low budget vehicles. However, it has morphed into a high-dollar venue for rare and exclusive vehicles which is frequented by a lot of professional dealers and ignorant buyers with fat wallets.
I would not buy a vehicle of any kind on BaT. My limited knowledge is enough to tell that most prices are totally out of the normal range for the specific item sold. That does not mean, the quality of the offerings is sub-par. There are quite some nicely restored vehicles all the time. But if you do your homework and do not get involved into testosterone-controlled bidding competitions, you will find better deals elsewhere.