Valuation of a '68 What's your guess?

[Raymond]

I have some friends wishing to sell a 1968 280SL automatic and they've asked my opinion of the value.  The car starts and runs like a dream.  The brakes and shocks are good and it's stance is proper on a new set of Michelins.  The family has owned the car since 1973 and it has been a daily driver and is now a weekend car.  It's generally unmolested.  That's the good news.  The bad news is there are a couple of rust holes in the trunk floor.  The speedo works but the odometer has been broken for unknown years.  The tach doesn't work, the power steering leaks, and there are scratches and dings all around.  I've tried to show the worst examples in the photos.  The A/C doesn't work, the top material is vinyl (?) and is nearly impossible to stretch to close.  The ivory seats were re-covered with later model covers (early '68s still had the narrow backs).  The dash cover and wood are perished as is all the rubber in the hard top. (Top is anthracite gray to match the wheel covers) There are other cosmetic flaws.  I drove it today and it runs and handles great.  If someone wanted to fix the trunk, it would be a fun car to not be afraid to leave in a mall parking lot.  If you wanted to do a complete restoration, this would be a very good starting point.  They are committed to selling it.  I'm thinking that even with the problems, it's around $30K.  Thoughts? 

[johnk]

Rat
Is there rust in any of the other usual
Spots?

[Chris Long]

I’d say more like $50-60k and market prices provided rust issues not more severe.

Most of your list I just had fixed.

[Cees Klumper]

I also think that a thorough examination for other potential rust issues would help settle on the value. If the trunk is the only rust problem then I would agree with Arct1k's assessment. But if there's more/more serious issues, then closer to the $30K mark (even though more serious rust problems could well cost more than the $25K difference to correct).

[Bonnyboy]

An informed purchaser will look at the value of an example without those issues then work backwards subtracting the cost to fix those issues to arrive at a value.   The problem with the vintage car market right now is there are uninformed purchasers with cash who either underestimate the cost to fix or are unaware of the items that need to be fixed so in some cases pay too much which skews the values.

There isn't much for nicer driving restoration candidates at the moment so they may get a bit more than $30k.

Good luck helping them with the sale of their baby.  Be sure to list it on our site.

[john.mancini]

It's so difficult to get a valuation on a car by just simply viewing these few photos, but from what I can see, there's too much wrong with this car. Getting $30K from a knowledgable buyer could be difficult, but like Bonnyboy says, "Uninformed purchasers with cash" may overpay. Certain rusted collector cars from the 50's, 60's and 70's are money pits, and rusted W113's can suck money out of your pocket faster than any.

[Raymond]

Good insights, as usual.  I know it's hard to judge.  I didn't go into the whole list and I didn't put it on a rack or do a compression test either.  Looking under on the driveway, it appears that the rust is limited to the trunk floor, left side.  The heater controls are totally trashed with pieces falling inside the dash.  There is no grommet over the heater control valve so I don't know what it look like inside there.  The car has always been garaged but was left in the Florida sun in parking lots, hundreds of days.  The cylinder head was replaced by the dealer at some point.  There are some records but not super complete. The underside of the trunk lid was re-painted for some unknown reason. 
It's serial #3000 so it was built in the middle of the 1968 run. The fellow who owned it since 1973 passed away a few years ago and his daughter and her husband had it serviced by a well-known local mechanic until he retired two years ago.  I think it's a good candidate for a restoration.  It will need a new top, total re-paint, entire renovation of instrument cluster and dash board, including trim wood.  new A/C compressor, and the power steering pump needs a rebuild.   

[Tycoon]

Ray,

Given the current “hot sellers Market” on the Bring A Trailer auction site, this may be your best place to market this project…..I would list it without a reserve price and have the bidders fight it out. I would predict a $40K+ end result, given the the condition of this vehicle and Bonnyboy has got the approach to value right! Unfortunately, our members are too informed to pay top dollar…….while the open, uninformed market buys/bids with emotions…….

Best of luck!

Bill

[mdsalemi]

...The car starts and runs like a dream.  The brakes and shocks are good and it's stance is proper on a new set of Michelins...It's generally unmolested...bad news is there are a couple of rust holes in the trunk floor... speedo works but the odometer has been broken for unknown years.  The tach doesn't work, the power steering leaks, and there are scratches and dings all around.  I've tried to show the worst examples in the photos.  The A/C doesn't work, the top material is vinyl (?) and is nearly impossible to stretch to close.  The ivory seats were re-covered with later model covers (early '68s still had the narrow backs).  The dash cover and wood are perished as is all the rubber in the hard top. (Top is anthracite gray to match the wheel covers) There are other cosmetic flaws.  I drove it today and it runs and handles great.  If someone wanted to fix the trunk, it would be a fun car to not be afraid to leave in a mall parking lot.  If you wanted to do a complete restoration, this would be a very good starting point.  They are committed to selling it.  I'm thinking that even with the problems, it's around $30K.  Thoughts?

Ray, if YOU say it runs like a dream, then THAT is a huge point--far more of a point than any bits of rust. Unmolested? That's significant too. My car was rusted significantly more; nothing worked. Wouldn't even roll; had to be dragged. Lots of bad work on it, lots of molestation. Bad everything.

As one who has gone through a total restoration INCLUDING a lot of rust repair, the fear of rust is vastly overblown and the significance of a poorly running car (bad mechanicals of any kind) not considered highly enough. Compound that with cars that inevitably are missing important parts. Grill stars, soft top frames, trim bits, etc. are all costly and in some cases exceedingly difficult to find.

A poorly running car may need an engine rebuild. Properly doing that these days isn't cheap. A long block from Metric is about $10K. Then you have to get the old one out--and install the new. Lots of labor there. FIP? Fuel Pump? What else are you going to change on a car that runs poorly? You can do all this only to realize now your distributor is shot...add a rebuild on that or a 1-2-3. Then get someone to ensure it all works and fits together properly. As you know from reading the posts here, some people (myself included) have spent years getting the runnability thing straightened out. Just when you do one thing, you find another.

There's not that much unique about the bodywork on a W113 that a skilled bodyman (or woman if there is such a thing) hasn't seen before. Most sheet metal is available. Cut, grind, weld, finish.

Now don't get me wrong: there is such a thing as a basket case, one so far gone as to be basically unrepairable. Doesn't sound like this is the case here.

I'm tending to agree with you that this is a candidate for restoration, partial or not. The body work can be dealt with. Some of the other things you mentioned are mechanically easy to deal with. Leaky power steering? Swap in a rebuilt pump. All the wood is available, and can be on your doorstep in a few days. There's a number of instrument shops that will refurb all the gauges. One by one all these things can be dealt with.

If they are serious and put it up for sale, I'm guessing in the $40-$50K range. Add in the restoration over the coming years and you probably have a fine car on your hands.

[Shvegel]

Driveline repairs are finite.  Rusty body repairs are not.  This is a picture of my car the day I bought it.  I thought it was pretty solid but what started as a "Paint Job" turned into a bare shell restoration pretty quickly.  At today's prices my car required over $15,000 in sheet metal, at least that much to have it all properly spot welded back together, another $3,000 to have the body baked and dipped in E-coat epoxy and $10,000 for a paint job.

[Pawel66]

...what started as a "Paint Job" turned into a bare shell restoration pretty quickly...

What a familiar development! That is why when I see in the ads "touch-up paint care required in a couple of places" - I smile and I think "I am too old for this, but I feel sorry for those who would believe and will not take a proper look!"

[Benz Dr.]

Driveline repairs are finite.  Rusty body repairs are not.  This is a picture of my car the day I bought it.  I thought it was pretty solid but what started as a "Paint Job" turned into a bare shell restoration pretty quickly.  At today's prices my car required over $15,000 in sheet metal, at least that much to have it all properly spot welded back together, another $3,000 to have the body baked and dipped in E-coat epoxy and $10,000 for a paint job.

Exactly.

[dirkbalter]

Driveline repairs are finite.  Rusty body repairs are not.  This is a picture of my car the day I bought it.  I thought it was pretty solid but what started as a "Paint Job" turned into a bare shell restoration pretty quickly.  At today's prices my car required over $15,000 in sheet metal, at least that much to have it all properly spot welded back together, another $3,000 to have the body baked and dipped in E-coat epoxy and $10,000 for a paint job.

Couldn't agree more. Most of the issues really show up when you get started and dig into it.

[mdsalemi]

Not only did I commission and take an active role in a full restoration, I also had the hood and fender worked on in 2017, and finally had my hard top restored and the door replaced in 2019-2021. During the initial restoration, the restorer (primarily a body guy) was given a directive: if it is rusted, cut it out and weld in new metal. If it needs replacement, replace it. If you think it is rusted or think it needs replacement, that means it does and do it. As one who has been through it all, I'd offer that it's all in a matter of perspective.

Did you ever hear the old joke about the two shoe salesmen, dispatched from a London shoemaker to colonial Africa many years ago, to expand the maker's market? After a month in country, they were asked to report back to their boss. One of them says, "Bollocks! The outlook is all to pot, I'm afraid. Nobody wears shoes!" The other salesman says "I'm chuffed! The outlook is brilliant! Nobody wears shoes!"  So you see, it's all a matter of perspective. I view a mechanically distressed car, or one missing a lot of parts with the same eye as I do rust. Both take time and money to repair.

Yes, absolutely, rust is precisely like an iceberg: it never shows completely. But if that were some secret, then we'd all be dismayed regularly. But it's no mystery and no secret, and a good body person knows how deep to go and how to solve it. There are cars sufficiently compromised in body that one should walk away from; and the same holds true for mechanically compromised.

Once the rust was fixed on my car, it's been a non-issue for the past 20 years. I suspect Pat Price who suggests rust repairs are not finite, based upon description of HIS rust repairs, has indeed solved them. Perhaps with more involvement than he'd like, and a lot more money, but solved nonetheless. I don't think he'll have to worry about it for a very long time, if ever.

Mechanical repairs don't end. As soon as you start that rebuilt engine it starts to wear. Ask AlexD about his motor mounts; just a mere SEVEN YEARS since replacement, and they need it replacement again. It took me a good 5-6 years to sort out the runnability of my car. Nothing ever seemed 100%. Was it fuel? Distributor? FIP adjustment? Wires? Spark? Coil? Tires? Why, YES!  All of it. Look at all these posts here on the forum; how many discuss or lament continued body work on an ongoing basis? Not many. How many are trying to solve some kind of mechanical issue? Most. All the time.

Of course a rust free car--if there is such a thing--is preferable to one with known rust issues. But a car that is well sorted mechanically is a good find.

[Benz Dr.]

So, what are you trying to say here?  That you know more than those who actually work on these cars? Handing someone money to fix something is certainly part of the process, but it's not the process.

Your car was, at the time, better restored than just about any I had seen in 2006 or when it was last here and not many were restored at all back then. Today, there are lots of them that are restored, many as good or better than yours.

The reason people ask a lot of mechanical questions here is because this is a forum based primarily about mechanical things. If you want to be able to drive your car, or something needs addressing because you are driving your car, you will ask those questions. This isn't a body and paint forum or any of those other specialty operations that most who do know these cars would know about here. Unless someone is a body man or painter they really wouldn't know how to do it. Is it possible to do it yourself, of course it is.

Mechanical repairs do have finite prices. And, since most of the major components for 113's are the same as sedans from the time period, they're obtainable. Good, rust free body shells, not so much. And, it has to be a 113, early or late, or it's just a pile of scrap metal to a pagoda owner.

[john.mancini]

Last year I purchased a 230SL that I knew, was going to need a complete engine rebuild. Why would I do that? Because the body was absolutely perfect. No accidents, no rust, and from a dry, west coast climate. Just as straight and sound as the day it left the factory.

What am I trying to say here? It's much less expensive to fix a W113 motor than it is to fix a W113 rusted, crappy body. That's why I can not put much of a value into this rusted 68 280SL. To me, it's not worth much.

[kampala]

Folks keep describing this car as full of rust - yet Ray has written that the rust is only in the trunk.  We all know that many many many w113s get water into the trunk and a rusted trunk floor is no clue to the rest of the car. 

Rusted fenders or sills are another story and ray has not mentioned rust anywhere else. 

This car needs a lot, but according to Ray, who knows these cars well, it’s not a rust case.

[Benz Dr.]

I think that most see something different when it comes to what would be considered as a restoreable car. The same can be said for what people think is a restored car. Some say painting a car is a restoration. It's not.

[Raymond]

I genuinely appreciate everyone's input.  I'm just trying to help these very nice folks decide what the car they have owned, driven, and enjoyed for 49 years is worth so that they won't later regret having sold too cheaply. 
I did not see any other visible rust but I am well aware of how pernicious it can be.  The car was well serviced and garaged over it's entire lifetime, and suffered sun damage from while parked at work or at golf courses.  I have to agree with Mike Salemi, once rust is PROPERLY removed, a car garaged in the South is not going to turn into a rust bucket for decades.  I'm going to go back with some tools, flashlights and mirrors to have a poke around at rust points I've read on the forum over the years.

They now have a nephew who has offered to buy the car once they fix a price and a dealer who is flying in having said he is coming to buy not offer.  I'll report back.

[mdsalemi]

I have to agree with Mike Salemi, once rust is PROPERLY removed, a car garaged in the South is not going to turn into a rust bucket for decades.

Precisely my point.

Folks keep describing this car as full of rust - yet Ray has written that the rust is only in the trunk.
This car needs a lot, but according to Ray, who knows these cars well, it’s not a rust case.

Thank you Aslam, for the reality.

@Dan Caron, last I checked you are pretty quick to sling insults (though thanks for the compliments on my car) but there was no body shop at the SL Barn. In fact most of the well known model experts here in business, casual or professional, also don't have a body shop.

You may have seen my car after the restoration, but you surely didn't see it before or during. I was quite fortunate to find a restoration house that allowed me to work closely with them, and that I did. Did I don a welding helmet? A respirator in the paint booth? No. But I did far more than just "write checks" as you insultingly suggest. I was there often during the restoration and worked hand in hand in making decisions on how to take the next step and learning all along the way. Many restorers don't allow a client to do this. Mine did; it was one reason why he was chosen. The shop, now long gone, was called "Precious Metal Restoration" in an undescript building in a neighborhood of poor repute. It had been owned by Rich Splain, who was well known years ago amongst the 190 crowd. The shop closed soon after my car was finished. The guy who bought the shop from Rich moved west to Montana. One of the body men who did much of the work on my car worked at K&K.

Fast forward to the near present, and my most recent shop, Motorwerks in Commerce Township, Michigan, indeed has a full body shop, compliant paint booth, frame jig, and all the other accoutrements of a proper body shop. In addition to a full mechanical shop, and staffed by skilled mechanics and body men. They restored my hard top and swapped out the 230SL door for the proper 280SL door (forever indebted to StevenF for helping with that one). They too allowed me to work with them and kept me informed of everything necessary.

My big point is that rust isn't that much different than anything else. Understand it. Are there rust-buckets you cannot restore? Sure. There are also cars so far mechanically gone as to be unrestorable as well.

So when Ray's quick look yielded minor rust in the trunk, so be it. That's what many latch on to and have assumed the car is too rusty to deal with. I heard "it runs like a dream"; that's far more of a +PLUS for me than the coming rust repair is a negative.

Glad your friends have you to rely on Ray!

[Shvegel]

Raymond,
Here are a few spots to check.  I should someday put these together for the technical manual.

I should point out none of these areas had holes when the car went in to restoration. maybe a couple pin holes but that is it.  The last picture is by far the best place to look if you are buying a car.  The top of the reinforcement in the front wheel well inboard side is impossible to see so you have to reach up in there.  This is especially important on a car you may suspect has been "glossed over"  Rust here is usually missed in the glossing over and if it is rusty there it is probably rusty everywhere.

There are so many elements that are intertwined on our cars that body repairs often snowball.  A rusty sill means at least the lower part of the front and rear fenders (Wings) has to be cut off or more properly the entire panels.   The repair that front reinforcement the fender has to come off and most likely the inner fender is damaged as well.

[Shvegel]

Everything is fixable.  There are a few of us who are regretting scraping or parting out cars that are far better than ones being restored today.  I follow the work of Safet Krupic in Sarajevo and the Riga mater workshop in Latvia.  These guys are taking cars that are so far beyond what I would consider restorable and turning out world class cars.  They don't cut corners..period.

During and after on my car.  The before is the view from the front tire to the back.  The thing on the left is the bottom of the door.  Anything is fixable.

[Raymond]

My friends sold the car today.  The dealer, flew into town and inspected the car.  After some negotiation, and with the valuable input you folks provided, they were able to get a good price for it, as is.  I wasn't told the final number and it isn't my business.  Let's just say that I'm sure the dealer paid more than he was hoping and will do a good job with the restoration.  Before long, it will be well sorted and on the road again in the hands of another Pagoda lover. 

[Hod]

Ray, your assistance, knowledge and attention were invaluable to us, and this discussion really informed us on the challenges, unknowns, efforts and effects necessary to do a real quality job of restoration.  But she really deserves it.
We are very pleased with the offer, the negotiation and the way we, and she, were treated by what seems a really dedicated and motivated buyer.
It seems we are each satisfied and happy with the outcome.
I hope to get to see what her future holds.
A

[Benz Dr.]

Ray, your assistance, knowledge and attention were invaluable to us, and this discussion really informed us on the challenges, unknowns, efforts and effects necessary to do a real quality job of restoration.  But she really deserves it.
We are very pleased with the offer, the negotiation and the way we, and she, were treated by what seems a really dedicated and motivated buyer.
It seems we are each satisfied and happy with the outcome.
I hope to get to see what her future holds.
A

A good deal is when both sides walk away satisfied. Good for you.