High price or prices on the rise?

[n/a]

Yes I know it is a dealer...
But I have seen the car last time I was on the west coast, it was just repainted and looked ok though I was not totally impressed.
It is a nice car, but for that price I would expect more "originality" in the details.
Heater levers are the cheap non original ones, engine bay looked a little worn out (no original coating for instance...).
I am curious to see how long it will take them to sell the car.
http://www.heritageclassics.com/mercedes/70sil280sl/Page.html

Fabrice
Silver 1971 280 SL
New York City

[Kenneth Gear]

I'll see that ate raise you with anotehnr dealer example...

http://www.paulrussell.com/  

(look under "sales")

Ken G
1971 280 SL
Silver/red

[zanone]

Motoring Investments just sold a very nice red Pagoda that was listed at $65K. http://www.motoringinvestments.com/C31Photo1.htm

[hauser]

Just before Hatch and Sons was sold they had three 280sl's priced at $69.5K and up.

1969 280sl 5 spd
Gainesville, Fl.

[n/a]

quote:Originally posted by zanone

Motoring Investments just sold a very nice red Pagoda that was listed at $65K. http://www.motoringinvestments.com/C31Photo1.htm

Yes, I'm the one who purchased it.  It was a bit overpirced, but i wanted it NOW.  It appraises easily at 50K however, and it just won third prize in the Visalia, CA car show Saturday, in a field of all foreign cars 25 years and older.



Steve Griswold
1970 280SL signal red/bamboo leather, PS, 3.27 final drive gear ratio, AC, Becker Europa stereo,

[zanone]

Congratulations, that looks like a great car. I wanted it but never got around to making an offer. Let me know if you sell it, I'm in the market for a #1 car.



Steve Griswold
1970 280SL signal red/bamboo leather, PS, 3.27 final drive gear ratio, AC, Becker Europa stereo,
[/quote]

[Ed Cave]

Steve:

You bought a beautiful car. I saw it when I was in Brian's shop several weeks ago. Congratulations.

Ed Cave
Atlanta, GA


1971 280SL
1973 911S
2004 A4 3.0 (wife)
2006 GS430

[n/a]

quote:Originally posted by Ed Cave

Steve:

You bought a beautiful car. I saw it when I was in Brian's shop several weeks ago. Congratulations.

Ed Cave
Atlanta, GA


1971 280SL
1973 911S
2004 A4 3.0 (wife)
2006 GS430

It really is a great machine...but now to deal with the disintegrating heater levers. Wish I could get those all acrylic ones...but don't think it's gonna happen.

Steve Griswold
1970 280SL signal red/bamboo leather, PS, 3.27 final drive gear ratio, AC, Becker Europa stereo,

[n/a]

quote:Originally posted by zanone

Congratulations, that looks like a great car. I wanted it but never got around to making an offer. Let me know if you sell it, I'm in the market for a #1 car.



Steve Griswold
1970 280SL signal red/bamboo leather, PS, 3.27 final drive gear ratio, AC, Becker Europa stereo,

[/quote]

Still in love with it...but I will remember you if the time ever comes.  Looking forward to showing it aside my new SL600 coming end of June...then and now.

Steve Griswold
1970 280SL signal red/bamboo leather, PS, 3.27 final drive gear ratio, AC, Becker Europa stereo,

[France]

Hi Guys,

I meant to post this after returning from Sarasota at Easter, but it got lost in the Brussels shuffle.  Anyone who wants to see high-priced (but not ridiculously so) lovely Pagodas should know about this.  We stopped by Sarasota's Vintage Motors (google it) on the corner of University and 41 in their new digs.  There is always a plethora of beautiful autos to look at, and they were very interested in my Carling when we pulled up.  Turns out there is a Swede working with them who does nothing but restore Pagodas.  We saw a 66 230SL dark blue/parchment automatic--looked immaculate, even underside.  I think he wants $55K for it.  He also has a 64 230SL red/black 4-speed with "one family owner since new."  He also just took in what he said was a 69 280SL creme/raspberry 4speed that belonged to a local lady who only drove it on Sundays...yadda yadda.  (If any of our international members needs a translation of yadda yadda, just ask...)  Anyway, it reinforces the upward trend in prices...

Trice
1968 280SL US, signal red/bl leather, auto, kinder
Sarasota FL; Alsace France

[Douglas]

For what it's worth, here's a nice site that seems to support escalating values for our cars. It was updated in April of 2005 and says an excellent 280 SL is mid-$30Ks and show quality is $61.5K:

http://www.manheimgold.com/

I generally find that these kinds of books show prices way too low, but I think these are a lot closer to reality than I expected.

Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220

[TR]

I think we've heard some estimates that very good examples of W113s might double in value over the next 10 years.  If true, that would be a compound annual growth rate (CAGR) of 7.2%.

Tom in Boise

[n/a]

Here is one thing I could not understand:  With W113 prices not rising as much as some of the other models, why are the W113 parts the hardest to find and the most expensive?

Louis 70 280sl auto red

[France]

Well, the Sarasota expert (see post below) guessed right on the nose what I had paid for Carling 3 years ago ($15K), and he said it would be almost double that now for a car in the same shape...  That seems to exponentially expand Tom's estimated CAGR*.  So many cars, so little time   ...we're building another garage next year.

Trice
1968 280SL US, signal red/bl leather, auto, kinder
Sarasota FL; Alsace France

*assuming steady-state growth rate

[TR]

Hi France -- I sure hope these cars do better than double in price over the next 10 years (CAGR of 7.2%).  I rather think they will. And your experience seems to indicate that as well.  If the value of your 280SL has gone from $15K to $30K over a 3-year peiod that would be deliver a compound growth rate of 26%, which would be outstanding.

20 years ago I searched all over the US before buying my 280SL.  There were certainly higher priced ones at the time, but I paid $18,500 in 1985.  (Before I took delivery I had an offer of $20K for it, which was fun).  Over the intervening 20 years I've put at least an additional 3x into it.  Obviously a poor financial investment over a period of 2 decades.

Since I don't intend to ever sell it perhaps I shouldn't particularly care what these cars are worth.  But when I saw a fairly decent example of a 280SL go for $13,500 at last year's Sun Valley car auction I didn't feel great about it.  Worse yet, most of the neighboring high school kids drive more valuable cars...not nearly as nice or as interesting in my opinion, but more expensive.

I'm sure many of us would like to see prices finally increase for the W113.  I was encouraged by John Olsen's SL Market Letter (#201...date unknown) where he estimated 230/250/280SLs would have a 5-year potential of 100%, with the 280SL at 20-30% higher.  (280SL CAGR of ~18%?)  Here's the link to that piece by Olsen: http://www.slmarket.com/pocketbook2.htm

I think it was Michael Salemi (?) who'd added Olsen told him that his 280SL might double in valve over 10 years.  It was based on that input that I calculated the CAGR of 7.2%...which I found less than thrilling.

If my initial investment of $18.5K (forgetting all the improvements made over the years) increased at 7.2%/yr that would work out to a value of $74.5K today.  I don't think so...but maybe some day, if I live long enough.

IMHO, having a decent investment would make owning these cars even more fun.

BTW, while in Scottsdale next week I will see a '71 280SL which is priced at $79K.

Tom in Boise
'71 280SL 4-spd, signal red w/lt. tan interior, restored/enhanced

[Ben]

Firstly that red Pagoda that Steve (welcome to the club) bought looks like a real beauty. I had a good look at the photos on Brian Peters' site, excellent ! He does really nice work !

Just to add to the original topic, in the UK in the last month there have been a few Pagods at auction, usually rough to average cars, the cheapest of which went for Sterling £15,500 I believe. That makes about $25,000 approximately !

Prices are definitely moving in the right direction !

I reckon I need to invest in my bodywork whilst I can afford it !

Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.

[TR]

Folks -- One more little piece of pricing trivia:

I just used an inflation calculator ( http://minneapolisfed.org/Research/data/us/calc/index.cfm ) to compute the inflated value of $18.5K in 1985 dollars to current dollars.  This came out to $33,578 for 2005.  So, perhaps some of our cars have at least kept up with inflation.

Of course it's all up to the market, but personally, I think good examples of these cars are (or will be) intrinsically worth much more.  Re the $79K 280SL now at Ranchomerced in Cave Creek, AZ: http://ranchomerced.com/My_Homepage_Files/Page6.html  This does not strike me as unreasonable ... and while I'm certainly not saying this is smart I've got more than that into my 280SL.

How much might this car currently sell for in Europe?

Tom in Boise
'71 280SL 4-spd, signal red w/lt. tan interior, restored/enhanced

[Dick M]

Tom...
I've seen your car and to be fare you should discribe what you have done ... truley an amazing piece of work.


Dick M
1970 280SL

[J. Huber]

In my particular case, the rising prices are actually a double-edged sword. My car is a decent (and much loved) driver but has issues with rust that will keep its value on the lower end of the spectrum. Thus, while the top end of our cars promises to rise exponentially, the lower end I imagine will only rise modestly. Moreover, as I contemplate that "next Pagoda" if such a time should come, I realize I will be looking at a much pricier "upgrade" down the road.

James
63 230SL

[TR]

Dick -- Thanks very much.  After the car gets put back together, and everything works, I'll take some photos and post them.

Tom in Boise
'71 280SL 4-spd, signal red w/lt. tan interior, restored/enhanced

[mulrik]

From the speculative end, I think we as a group have the influence and the power to raise the price of our cars. If we think of ourselves as a union who will not dump the prices of the cars we sell I think prices may be getting up to E-type level over the years.

Another thing we could do was to publish more articles and advertise the car a little more. Write in car magazines like "Classic and sportscar" and " Classic cars".

I think our cars are undervalued and so does a lot of other people. Part of it may stem from the fact that they are so solid build and easy to drive plus the fact that you can easily get all parts. This in my opinion takes away some of the mystery away plus it has the consequence that a high frequency of the manufactured pagodas are still on the road today. If you take the example of the E-type it has all the oposite "qualities": lousy quality, "horrible" to drive and parts can be tricky to get.

I mean we are not in this to earn money, but to have fun. But a little return will not harm anyone and with the qualities of our cars it should be an easy task to lift prices globally.
Give me your thoughts.
Ulrik


'67 250 SL Papyrus White 113043-10-000023

[France]

Hi Guys,
 
As an outsider to Europe, I see big cultural/economic trouble coming.  In bad times Europeans like to revert to the safe icons of their more carefree age--the optimistic post-war boom and the Pagoda.  Conversely, the US is in good times.  In good times Americans like to revert to older good-feeling times--that is Pagoda times.  For that reason I think that all the iconic sexy well-designed 60s cars will gain in value in both areas.  The Pagoda is still accessible to the average buyer, which makes it attractive to "normal" people (well, I know none of us is normal).  I have at least two standing offers to buy Carling from neighbors who love her because she brings great memories.

While I agree with Ulrik in his assessment of the Pagoda's driving and styling, I must take exception to his comments about my E-type!  Horrible to drive?  I think not!  It's just a beast of an engine in a tin can.  Well, there's something for everyone.

Trice
1968 280SL US, signal red/bl leather, auto, kinder
Sarasota FL; Alsace France

[Cees Klumper]

Ulrik - you asked for it - my expectation is prices will continue to rise on the average for maybe about 10 years. Then the generation that is motivated by childhood memories (like myself, I am 45) will be less of a force in the market, concerns about the future of conventional-powered (= gasoline fueled) vehicles will mount, and environmental (emissions) constraints will start to become more of a limiting factor on values of older cars. Also, my estimation is that the extent of price increases will not be material (= significant) to most Pagoda owners' wallets / total investment in their SL. Perhaps more relevant to figuring your total cost of ownership will be whether you bought your car for a reasonable sum to begin with, and whether you have had to put in a lot or a little money since then.

Cees ("Case") Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic

[n/a]

Hello all, Trice , Ulrik and Cees,

let me jump back in on some of your comments...Also because my other car is a E-Type!!!

Cees, I kind of disagree on the memories part... I am 33, (the exact same age of my car) so the memory part doesn't do it for me. I bought the Pagoda because I couldn't afford the Talbot Lago Teardrop by Figoni & Falaschi
The Pagoda was my first choice for my first antique car due to:
1) style and body elegance;
2) style and polyvalence (beautiful convertible but also I think the most beautiful hard top); How many cars do you know look as great top down than hardtop on?
3) availability of parts;
4) performances as a touring car (not a sports car) and reliability;
5) price and affordability.
Overal, Cees, you might be part of the generation who is buying memories, I am part of a newer generation for whom the Pagoda is truly an antique. My father was telling me about his memories when I took him for a tour last time he came to visit me to the US...Well, I will have "memories car" when I buy a Peugeot 205 turbo, an Alpine A310, a Venturi, a Golf GTI, a Maserati biturbo or a 911 Carrera 3.2... I believe for my generation the Pagoda has fallen into a category including cars like a Ferrari 250 GTE, Maserati 3500GT, 280 SE, Facel vega HK500, E-Type, MGA and MGB... basically all kinds touring cars from 50's to 60's.
So, bottom line is that, if there is no law preventig from driving antique cars, there is hope for a new generation of buyers!!

Now, Ulrik, it is difficult to compare the sl with the E-Type... the E-Type is a true sports car, the Pagoda is not.
since reliability is an issue (thank you Lucas!) on the E-Type, it makes it slightly less affordable and more of an icon. It is clearly, in cars, THE icon of the 60's (Have you seen the exhibit at the SF MoMA on the 60's where the E-Type was featured?) which will grant it a special appeal, for the style alone (for the reliability, as I said, it is not a german car!!).
I certainly don't think it is a horrible car to drive, on the contrary, but the Pagoda is very comfortable car for a daily driver, the Jaguar, with 100 hp more, is more of a "beast".

At the end, Classic cars IS an investement where the return is....ENDLESS HOURS OF WONDERFUL DRIVING EXPERIENCE...(well, endless with the SL and endless-interupted every othe mile- with the Jaguar..!!)



Fabrice
Silver 1971 280 SL
New York City

[Cees Klumper]

Hey Fabrice, thanks for the perspective. I do hope you are an exponent of a group of enthusiasts who look to the style and class of the Pagoda by itself, so not driven by ´memories´ like some of us. I guess it would be interesting to find out what the demographics of this group are, agewise but also otherwise (occupation, location etc). Maybe we can start a poll on this somehow.

Anyway back to the topic of this thread. Who thinks prices will rise much more than inflation for, say, the next 5 years?


Cees ("Case") Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic