High price or prices on the rise?

[n/a]

Cees, it just reminds me of of one of my best friends who is about the same age as you and who likes to speak about people "our" age...at which point I can't help but reply to him each time..." you mean YOUR age?" hehehehe. sorry for the joke..

As for the prices of Pagoda, I just think the gap between the average and the very good ones will widen significantly as people look for perfect examples which shouldn't require too much work. for the rest, global economy will do!



Fabrice
Silver 1971 280 SL
New York City

[n/a]

Oh, one more thing, Cees...It is late for you in amsterdam...Go to bed!!

Fabrice
Silver 1971 280 SL
New York City

[Raymond]

On the subject of age and memories, as today is my 52nd birthday, let me offer my view of the value/memories debate.  I remember the first time I saw a Rembrandt painting for the first time. I was probably 12 and it was as if the light from the painting went on in my head ... and my heart.  It was the Rembrandt's mastery of the art of light that opened my eyes to the beauty of classic paintings.  

I was standing on a corner in early 1968, the first time I saw a Pagoda in person.  The same light went on in my heart and every time thereafter that I saw one, I remarked, "There's my car."  Nearly 35 years later I finally bought one.

So, for me or for potential buyers, is the value of the car the memories or the mastery of the art?  

I'd say my investment is safe either way.

Ray
'68 280SL 4-spd Coupe

[France]

Hi Guys,

I have no particular memory of the Pagoda as a youngster (although it would have been around when I was in highschool).  I vividly remember the e-Type my best friend got for her 16th birthday, though!  She and I had that and a 56 porthole T'bird to roar around in. Oh, misspent youth!

Not until three years ago did I buy a Pagoda as my daily driver, a present to myself on my 50th birthday.  I bought it solely for the style and the art of light, plus all the practical plusses Frabrice outlined.  How many other classics are so reasonably priced and easy keepers that reward you with reliable driving?  By the way, our e-Type runs perfectly and its only downtime is to add new goodies.  She is in the shop now and will get new spinners after her surgery. When she goes flat out, it's difficult for anyone to catch her--pure adreneline!

Trice
1968 280SL US, signal red/bl leather, auto, kinder
Sarasota FL; Alsace France

[mulrik]

Well great to see the debate going on. Anyway here are my comments:
I was trying to raise the debate on the value of the pagodas which in my and other's (classic car journalists) opinion is seriously undervalued. In that respect I was comparing it to the E-type which is very highly priced car. Furthermore, it is comparable in the sense that it is from the same period, is ALSO a sportscar (race the E-type against the pagoda on a twisting road and the E-type would be left in the dust, whereas flat out the pagodas would be left) and is also a style icon albeit a different one. Well nevertheless, the E-type is wonderfull, and is wonderfull to drive, but with the series I famous bad brakes and a gearshift so close you wouldn't know if you are in reverse or first gear (can be a crucial mistake if you think of it), it has it's element of "horrible to drive". These are some of features of the series I, which on top is the most valuable of the E-types. Now that's the end of the E-type vs Pagoda discussion (at least for my part).

I'm also 33 and have the pagoda for the exact same reasons as Fabrice, but I think Cees is touching on an important point when he's pointing out that oil ressources may be limited on the very long run (+20 years), and that this may limit the value of classic cars.

I know that the vast majority of the investment is driving and fixing-up-the-car pleasure, I'm all in for that, but it is a given and sure thing which we don't even have to discuss, since it's so obvious.

What my intention was, in the first post I wrote in this thread, was to spark the debate on what we as a group could do to increase the appreciation of our cars (since they are undervalued as I claim). But maybe also to close in what makes a classic car valued (moneywise). Hence the E-type analogy.

All the best
Ulrik


'67 250 SL Papyrus White 113043-10-000023

[France]

It's me again.  Funny Cees mentioned the energy concern at this time.  For a while we've been sitting around debating which of our old cars we really should sell in the future, given the punishing tax on petrol in Europe--almost $6/gallon in Germany (!)  Also we can't deny the looming menace of those political types who would like to get everyone onto public transport.  Nor can the jealousy factor be ignored--the number of withering looks I've had when stepping out of the 500SL or XJS defy desription. (Let alone the GT40!) Will all these pressures conspire to devalue all old cars?  Well, maybe not the hugely iconic performance machines like Ferraris, etc.  And maybe not the Pagoda, for a different reason.  

Seems to me that we aren't looking for high performance here.  All most of us want is a nice drive in a (non-sports) car.  Perhaps we can put our hopes in the development of alternative energy sources so our Pagodas can be converted and continue running.  I can imagine a battery-powered Pagoda sooner than an electric GT40...  

The US is a different story; our love affair with the internal combustion engine will never die, and if it gets to be tough going in Europe, we're simply shipping the surviving stable to Sarasota.  So, Cees, I agree that Europe eventually may see a fall in prices, but not the US.  And I agree also that the higher end will see more upside.  Feel free to comment on this theory.  While Ulrik and others might wish to build up the profile of our car, that could be a two-edged sword.  I would hate the see this car priced out of the everyday market, and I don't want to worry about her every time I park her at the supermarket!  Let's just keep her our little secret, hmmm?

Trice
1968 280SL US, signal red/bl leather, auto, kinder
Sarasota FL; Alsace France

[TR]

My kids and their friends (early 20s) certainly dig the 280SL.  Please consider this as one vote for the idea that the W113 remains seriously undervalued.  I tend to think the "coolness factor" of an excellent W113 can be beyond that of a new Mercedes.  Having both (a 34-year old 280SL and a 1-year old CLK500 cabriolet), and driving my friend's new AMG SL65 on occassion, I feel modestly qualified to offer up that comment for consideration.

BTW, were the folks at Don Rasmussen (Portland), Lyle Pearson (Boise), and Fletcher Jones (Newport Beach and Las Vegas) Mercedes-Benz dealerships universally incorrect when I heard them all, over the years, refer to the W113 as a "sports car"?  Should I have straightened them out by informing them that the 280SL was indeed never a sports car?

I'm currently in Scottsdale, and am looking forward to seeing that '71 280SL listed for $79K later this week. (link posted below).

Tom in Boise
'71 280SL 4-spd, signal red w/lt. tan interior, restored/enhanced

[erickmarciano]

my opinion is :
the price of a clasic car depends mostly on 2 things
how well it raced and how cool you look on the road
1- this car did not race well
2- they are way more cool loking cars on the road from that era

the e type was a real sport car
please don't get me wrong I love my car but it does not stand out like the more valuble old cars on the road
I also have a 62 beetle and that car stands out way way more than my 280sl . I get waves and smiles from anyone the age of 2 to 99 , but the value of the beetle is an exception to my rule they made 20 milion of them >


1971 280sl
1962 VW
1954 Allstate vespa
1958 gs150 vespa
1962 gs160 vespa

[Vince Canepa]

It seems some folks are under-estimating the cornering prowess of the E-Type.  Around 1971 Road and Track did a comparison test of a Corvette, Porsche 911T, 280SL and E-Type.  The E-Type did quite well in the cornering department.  I'd take an E-type over my Pagoda any day - a nice '67 covered headlight coupe will fit nicely.  I obviously like my SL, but the lack of power (the thing is no faster than my 2.0 Golf) and the pitch/dive/roll motions of the body really date the car.  The E-Type comes closer to modern chassis dynamics.

As for values, folks have been predicting a huge rise in Pagoda values for the last 25 years.  Indexed against inflation, they have probably lost some value (in the late eighties they could bring over $50K USD).  I think they will do OK, but the more powerful stuff will always beat them out.  Just look at the values of muscle cars here in the US.  My old 289 HiPo Comet (terrible car to be honest) could bring more than my SL - weird.

Vince Canepa
1967 250SL
113.043-10-001543
568H Signal Red
116 Caviar MB-Tex

[n/a]

We recently bought a 1969 Porsche 911S to add to our stable, and the seller, a Porsche enthusiast from Canada, was quite impressed with the diversity of our small collection.  Basically, we have a quirky, very limited production car that is barely suitable for street use (saab sonett), we have a wonderful, easy to drive, grand touring car (230sl) that cruises effortlessly at any speed, and now we have a high-strung ultimate sports car, actually it really is a race car that is street legal.  1969 was the last year for the well-liked 2.0 liter, and the first year for the long wheelbase, known for making the handling of these cars much easier to control.

No plans to sell any of these cars in the foreseeable future, but I'm pretty confident that each are climbing in value.

The one thing we can all be sure, is that none of our cars will depreciate in a similar fashion to any modern car.

photos at www.eigs.net



-Lewis

'66 230 sl 113042-10-016238
'67 Saab Sonett II #43 of 258
'69 Porsche 911S
'00 Saab 9-3 viggen conv
'02 Saab 9-5 aero

[TR]

Lewis -- Nice looking 911S.  Having owned one I know what you mean about its excellent performance.  Although horsepower, as I recall, was not that much more than a 280SL.

BTW, based on your photos (which are very nice) it appears Fran really knows how to increase value!

Vince -- I share your feeling about the W113's lack of power compared to today's standards.  That's why I'm still toying with the idea of having the existing mechanical FI carefully removed, every single part carefully stored away ... and then having a new fuel delivery system and supercharger bolted onto the new Metric engine.  I wonder how the old 280SL might then compare to a new CLK500 in terms of oomph?

I sure don't think it would improve the car's monetary value, but since I intend to keep it for at least another 20 years, who cares?

Tom in Boise
'71 280SL 4-spd, signal red w/lt. tan interior, restored/enhanced

[France]

So, Tom, maybe then you'll have a sports car  

Trice
1968 280SL US, signal red/bl leather, auto, kinder
Sarasota FL; Alsace France

[TR]

I'm in Phoenix for the week.  Just got back from a really fun visit with Mark Passarelli at his Rancho Merced place in Cave Creek.  Followed the gravel road for a few miles, and there I was.  Also had the opportunity to briefly meet his team...Great folks all.  It was a blast, and Mark was a terrific host...thanks Mark!  

I'd hoped to see his '71 280SL, which was listed for $79K...but I was a little late as he'd just sold it.  Had the chance to look over another gorgeous 280SL that he's almost finished with.  Also saw numerous other W113s in various states of condition/restoration as well as enough 300SLs that I lost count.  I took photos, and Mark gave permission for me to post them.  If anyone is interested I can do that next week.

Also, earlier in the day I stumbled across Barett-Jackson's showroom while driving around Scottsdale.  Didn't even know they had a showroom; but was driving by, so I pulled in.  There was a sort-of-okay looking '58 Corvette (I owned one of those too, but many years ago).  The paint was 2nd-rate, and I thought the car was unremarable...yet the price was $70K  [:0].  I know this has little or nothing to do with W113's, but as a gen. point of interest here's the link for that car:  http://www.barrett-jackson.com/selectservices/cardetail_list.asp?id=180393

Mark offered up an opinion that the finest W113 will hit $100K within a couple of years here in the U.S.

France -- The local M-B dealer had an invitation-only pre-opening event last week for Boise's new Porsche dealership (like others, he owns several).  When I took a lovely new 911 out for a spin I tried telling him it wasn't a true sports car ... because as we all know, real sports cars don't have power windows.  He got got my (very) little (and very lame) joke, but for some reason didn't quite buy it.  

Tom in Boise
'71 280SL 4-spd, signal red w/lt. tan interior, restored/enhanced

[hauser]

Take a look at this $95,000.00 280sl at www.motoringinvestments.com

1969 280sl 5 spd
Gainesville, Fl.

[TR]

Hauser -- Lovely, and IMHO very nice to see.  Slight correction though; the number for this one is $99.5K ... a mere 500 bucks away from 6-figures. http://www.motoringinvestments.com/C81Photo.htm


Tom in Boise
'71 280SL 4-spd, signal red w/lt. tan interior, restored/enhanced

[mdsalemi]

My wife, always looking for an "out" with our car, would find this price to be pretty nice!      Aside from the [incorrect] battery[:0], cable ties :?  and some plating issues :evil: in the engine compartment this car looks like it would provide its new owner, whoever that might be, with a whole lot of fun, and quite a few stares as this is, to us at least, "eye candy par excellence"

Of particular note is the restored interior with child seat!  Beautiful.  I love my Signal Red and black, but would find this other color combination just as easy to live with!

Great exterior, but please tell me it doesn't have to drive on a gravel road to leave its place!

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored

[Douglas]

Incorrect battery? Now, Michael. Be nice. This is a Hjeltness restoration. Surely that must account for something.

If you use the word "molested," I will personally start to critique your car![:p]

Seriously though, if you admire the kinder seat so much, why not add one to your car? That would be easy.

Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220

[mdsalemi]

quote:Originally posted by Douglas

Incorrect battery? Now, Michael. Be nice. This is a Hjeltness restoration. Surely that must account for something.

If you use the word "molested," I will personally start to critique your car![:p]

Seriously though, if you admire the kinder seat so much, why not add one to your car? That would be easy.

Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220

Hjeltness, Schmeltness.  If they aren't going to put an MB battery in, for goodness sakes put in a Optima Gel battery.  For $100,000 I'd put in any battery they want--with gold plated posts!  But come on, don't the tie wraps make you cringe?  Five cent tie wraps from Home Depot don't belong on a car like this and you know it!

As for the kinder seat on my car, it would be for effect only--w/o a seatbelt (adding a seatbelt to a kinder seat would be just too weird--a hack design of untested capability, and probably ineffective)it just isn't safe.  I actually use the back well for storage--so I'll just sit back and admire those cars that have them.

As for critiqueing, bring it on!  Really--I've made a LOT of changes (some subtle, some not so) between the first tech session, Starfest and today--and the changes I made were based upon constructive criticism delivered by people like you, Joe, Pete Lesler, Ted Gottfried, Dr. Benz, and others.  I didn't make any changes at random, they were all done to effect a higher level of correctness.

I don't think, however that I'll be:

1) removing the Time Valve SS system in favor of a factory welded unit (exhaust)...

2) removing the aftermarket soft top and either getting a factory one or stitching in a factory rear window...

...anytime soon.

N.B.  I don't use the M-word, but would have to offer that my car is about as M as it gets...but it looks OK.  Some value originality, some newness.  I've been forced to appreciate the latter as the former original parts on my car were, in a word, "all used up".


Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored

[Douglas]

3 things:

1. The owner of the blue car should probably route the ignition wires under the injection lines if he wants it to look tidier. Then he can do away with the tie wraps. (Also, it should probably have a black plastic cover over the distributor.)

2. It's a rare owner who actually welcomes and learns from criticism. Many people just want to be told their show car is beyond reproach, so you deserve credit for that, Michael. Your car is among the best and just keeps getting better.

3. Is that a W 113 Pagoda SL Group sticker I detect on the top left corner of the windshield of the Hjeltness car?

Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220

[Ben]

That blue car is a very unusual colour, I havent seen it before and the light interior is gorgeous !

I think the price is a little OTT but I'll be glad if it gets up there as it bodes well for the future of all our 113's !

Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.

[n/a]

Excuse my ignorance - what is a "Hjeltness" restoration?

Joe

[Douglas]

They're one of the top restoration shops for Gullwings in the US (and possibly in the world):

http://www.sdvsa.org/HjeltnessRestorationIncTour.htm

There are a lot of cars out there with shiny paint and very little integrity underneath. I think it's safe to say that if Hjeltness worked on the restoration, it was done right.


Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220