Author Topic: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild  (Read 15427 times)

Charles 230SL

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Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« on: February 16, 2022, 13:50:52 »
hello all,
I've noticed over the past several months that I've got antifreeze dripping from the vent tube on my pancake style (brass) reservoir, indicating possible over pressurization.  I've also noticed some antifreeze residue stains on the sparkplug side of the block where it appears the head gasket has started leaking. The head was rebuilt before I bought the car but the engine lower-end has never been out of the car. I’m really disappointed that I’ll be pulling the engine for a rebuild.

I've heard nothing but good things about Metric Motors and I'd like them to do the machine work and rebuild. I am however concerned about logistics - I live 1 hour south of Atlanta, Georgia and I'm concerned shipping will be costly to Metric’s location in Canoga Park, CA. Has anyone in this Group shipped an engine to/from Metric Motors from this far east that can give me an idea of costs and how to handle shipping? Thanks in advance, Charles

Pawel66

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2022, 14:44:36 »
Just an amateur question: why engine rebuild if you only may have a head gasket issue?
Pawel

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wjsvb ✝︎

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2022, 15:02:45 »
I often use Freightquote for shipping.  Go on their site and it should be clear what to do . Quotations are free, no obligation. You'll have to scare up a good pallet or crate, secure the block to it carefully and wrap it with shrink-wrap.  If you need more assistance, PM me and we can talk.
jon

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Charles 230SL

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2022, 15:05:08 »
thanks Jon
I often use Freightquote for shipping.  Go on their site and it should be clear what to do . Quotations are free, no obligation. You'll have to scare up a good pallet or crate, secure the block to it carefully and wrap it with shrink-wrap.  If you need more assistance, PM me and we can talk.

Charles 230SL

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2022, 15:22:54 »
Just an amateur question: why engine rebuild if you only may have a head gasket issue?
The thrust/end play on the crankshaft is well out of tolerance. The odometer shows 79,953 miles which I assume is actually 179,953 miles.  I could pull the head and replace the head gasket but if I go that far, I feel I may as well just pull the engine. Again, I’m really disappointed - the engine runs beautifully and it keeps the oil pressure gauge pegged at all times.


mdsalemi

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2022, 15:54:08 »
Charles,

A call to Mike Elias at Metric should reveal his best experiences for shipping engines in and out, including the do's and don'ts. Remember, with the exception of the local trade every engine he rebuilds has to come in and go out, usually by truck. He's been doing this for so long, he'll tell you what works and what does not.

While you can "strap it to a skid", I'd prefer something a bit more protective; that is, a crate. I've made plenty of them and also had them made when I was in the computer business. While it used to be pretty cheap, that was when a 2x4 was $2 and a sheet of 7/16" OSB was $7.50. Times have changed. I'd still build a crate. Your engine is worth quite a bit of money, and even more once rebuilt, so the best protection is a proper crate. They are pretty easy to build with simple tools. There are these devices you can place inside the crate called a "Tip and Tell" as well as a "Shockwatch"; they will tell you upon arrival (the recipient has to know to check their status upon arrival) whether the freight was mishandled.

I once had a 3,000 pound laser plotter crated in Berlin and shipped to Minneapolis. It had fallen over and was damaged. I did not have these devices in the crate, but the two forklift holes in the middle of one of the sides of the crate was all that the Delta Airlines Freight adjuster needed to see before they issued us a full refund.

Even some strapping supplies and materials are not that costly these days with Amazon. And yes, I'd protect said engine with shrink wrap which is essentially oversized rolls of Saran Wrap or something quite close; it's PE film.

Once you get the engine in the crate or skid, you need reasonably precise measurements/dimensions, as well as weight. Be sure you have the ability to get that.

You generally won't take your crate or "engine on a skid" to the post office or UPS; it will go by truck. More specifically, what is called in the industry LTL (less than load) freight. Yes you can use freight quote or you can go direct to one of the major and reliable carriers, such as R&L, ABF Freight, Old Dominion, etc. Most of the LTL shippers expect to pickup at a commercial (non-residential) location. Sometimes the massive tractor trailers are banned in residential neighborhoods, or simply cannot navigate the streets. Also, and this is fairly important: do you need a lift gate? If you are at a residence, probably yes unless you have hired a few muscle men to lift the engine onto the back of a trailer! If on a commercial loading dock, no lift gate required. This is important since if you need one you'll pay extra, sometimes a charge of up to $125. Moreover just because you request and pay for this doesn't mean that they'll actually show up with one, or one that works. Been there and done that over the decades...

Don't even THINK of sending this out without full insurance; what that means is enough to cover replacement.

You'll be quite happy with the results of Metric Motors. They don't "fix" poorly performing engines; they apply the same consistent set of measurement and rebuilding protocols to all engines, ensuring a consistent product out the door.
Michael Salemi
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Cees Klumper

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2022, 15:57:53 »
I'm with Pawell on this - I would install a new head gasket before pulling and shipping etc the engine, since it is running so well without any other issues. Last year I replaced both heads + gaskets on my Bronco and, although it was a bit of a job, it does not compare to having to pull the entire engine, much less shipping it across country and going through the expense of a Metric Motors rebuild. That used to run around $5,500 but I am curious about the cost these days. While a head gasket and related materials/bolts and whatnot should be no more than a few hundred if you can do the work yourself, and not that much more if you have it done at a good shop. Just my 2 cents, you can always pull the engine later if it's really necessary.
Cees Klumper
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Benz Dr.

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2022, 16:30:40 »
Full oil pressure doesn't indicate rebuild time. Have you competed a compression test? Re-torqued the head?

I've seen seeping on the spark plug side on freshly rebuilt engines. 190SL's often do that and then they stop leaking after a while so seeping is of no major consequence. 
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Vander

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2022, 16:53:03 »
I agree that there are more steps and you need to do more diag before just pulling the motor and shipping it out.

I have used FedEx Freight before (online, not local store).

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Charles 230SL

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2022, 17:27:32 »
wow, thanks for all the quick responses!
Full oil pressure doesn't indicate rebuild time. Have you competed a compression test? Re-torqued the head? I've seen seeping on the spark plug side on freshly rebuilt engines. 190SL's often do that and then they stop leaking after a while so seeping is of no major consequence.

I've not done a compression check yet. I re-torqued the head 14,465 miles ago with no issues (yes I know it should be done every 12,000 miles). What concerns me most is the seeping antifreeze coupled with pressurizing of the coolant reservoir. I've seen leaking/blown head gaskets pressurize the water jackets and force coolant out the reservoir - which is what I'm seeing. As much as I wish it would, I don't think re-torqueing the head will remedy a leaking head gasket. I will check compression on the cylinders as soon as I get a chance.

mdsalemi

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2022, 18:01:33 »
I'm with Pawell on this - I would install a new head gasket before pulling and shipping etc the engine, since it is running so well without any other issues. Last year I replaced both heads + gaskets on my Bronco and, although it was a bit of a job, it does not compare to having to pull the entire engine, much less shipping it across country and going through the expense of a Metric Motors rebuild. That used to run around $5,500 but I am curious about the cost these days. While a head gasket and related materials/bolts and whatnot should be no more than a few hundred if you can do the work yourself, and not that much more if you have it done at a good shop. Just my 2 cents, you can always pull the engine later if it's really necessary.

Yes take the sound advice here and change the head gasket first. A great idea and a fraction of the cost and trouble of a rebuild.
Long block rebuilds at retail now are quite a bit more than $5,500...more like $9,850 plus some additional charges if certain parts are not worthy. That's the long block, and head work is extra...
Yeah the full rebuild doesn't sound like the first step at this time...

...but if it is, Metric arranges for transportation...again a call to them before you ship anything is well worth the time.
Michael Salemi
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Benz Dr.

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2022, 18:20:17 »
wow, thanks for all the quick responses!
I've not done a compression check yet. I re-torqued the head 14,465 miles ago with no issues (yes I know it should be done every 12,000 miles). What concerns me most is the seeping antifreeze coupled with pressurizing of the coolant reservoir. I've seen leaking/blown head gaskets pressurize the water jackets and force coolant out the reservoir - which is what I'm seeing. As much as I wish it would, I don't think re-torqueing the head will remedy a leaking head gasket. I will check compression on the cylinders as soon as I get a chance.

You can get a test done to see if any combustion gases are in the coolant. A bit of pressure is normal - maybe 10 PSI. Anything above the pressure of your rad cap and it will release some coolant.
Try a new rad cap. They wear out over time.
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
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Charles 230SL

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2022, 19:41:05 »
Yes take the sound advice here and change the head gasket first. A great idea and a fraction of the cost and trouble of a rebuild...
Well, you guys have about talked me out of pulling the engine. Since the head was rebuilt (about 30,000 miles ago) I do wonder why the head gasket started leaking so soon. I've personally only put 29,000 pampered miles on it. Maybe I'm overreacting but those runs down the side of the block are disconcerting...but first things first, I'll retorque the head and check the compression. The radiator/reservoir cap is only 7 years old but I'll replace it.   




Benz Dr.

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2022, 22:03:07 »
Odds are it's not your rad cap. Re-torque your head and see if that helps. Was there ever a time where it was over heated? Look and see if there are any fine bubbles at the head gasket parting surface with the engine running and fully warmed. Bubbles would indicate compression gasses escaping which could mean a warped head.
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
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1967 250SL
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Charles 230SL

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2022, 01:29:19 »
Odds are it's not your rad cap. Re-torque your head and see if that helps. Was there ever a time where it was over heated? Look and see if there are any fine bubbles at the head gasket parting surface with the engine running and fully warmed. Bubbles would indicate compression gasses escaping which could mean a warped head.

I've never over heated the engine in the 10 years/29,000 miles I've had the car, certainly not enough to warp the head. I plan to re-torque the head over the weekend.

I took the car out for a spirited drive this afternoon and got it up to operating temperature. I then checked whether there were bubbles at the block/head mating surface, and found none.  Its been several years ago but seems the last time I re-torqued the head there was one bolt that wouldn't take the required 65 ft-lb torque. Don't head-bolts stretch each time they're torqued? The head bolts on my early M127 engine may very well be the original ones, so I'm thinking about replacing them. Am I the only one who finds it daunting to re-torque head bolts every 12,000 miles??

wjsvb ✝︎

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2022, 02:37:46 »
Michael: Well put on shipping!  The world of LTL shipping is fairly straightforward if you follow their conventions.  If one would rather do it some other way, don't!
jon

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Charles 230SL

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2022, 12:29:04 »
Charles, A call to Mike Elias at Metric should reveal his best experiences for shipping engines in and out, including the do's and don'ts. Remember, with the exception of the local trade every engine he rebuilds has to come in and go out, usually by truck. He's been doing this for so long, he'll tell you what works and what does not.
thanks Michael, yes, I spoke with Mike Elias yesterday and he explained how they ship. Sounds like they have a preferred LTL shipper and the price wasn't as bad as I thought it would be.

Benz Dr.

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2022, 17:19:38 »

I've never over heated the engine in the 10 years/29,000 miles I've had the car, certainly not enough to warp the head. I plan to re-torque the head over the weekend.

I took the car out for a spirited drive this afternoon and got it up to operating temperature. I then checked whether there were bubbles at the block/head mating surface, and found none.  Its been several years ago but seems the last time I re-torqued the head there was one bolt that wouldn't take the required 65 ft-lb torque. Don't head-bolts stretch each time they're torqued? The head bolts on my early M127 engine may very well be the original ones, so I'm thinking about replacing them. Am I the only one who finds it daunting to re-torque head bolts every 12,000 miles??

This type of head bolt won't stretch. The head gasket will compress slightly over time but not very much which is why you are asked to re-torque the head bolts.   
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
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1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
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1988 560SEC

Pinder

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2022, 02:19:36 »
Maybe retorque at 5lbs over spec. what have you got to lose at this point.
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Benz Dr.

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2022, 05:24:26 »
Maybe retorque at 5lbs over spec. what have you got to lose at this point.

That's OK but don't go any higher.
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

Charles 230SL

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2022, 01:22:05 »
yesterday I re-torqued the (14) head bolts and adjusted the valves. I went just a tad over 65 ft-lbs on the head bolts.
I did find several exhaust valves a little too tight; .005 -.007 as opposed to .008.  I drove the car a bit over 100 miles today and as always, it ran beautifully. I'll be on the lookout for any dried antifreeze runs on the side of the block.

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2022, 01:56:32 »
Hope its fixed.
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Benz Dr.

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2022, 06:37:03 »
yesterday I re-torqued the (14) head bolts and adjusted the valves. I went just a tad over 65 ft-lbs on the head bolts.
I did find several exhaust valves a little too tight; .005 -.007 as opposed to .008.  I drove the car a bit over 100 miles today and as always, it ran beautifully. I'll be on the lookout for any dried antifreeze runs on the side of the block.

I set valve lash to .003'' intake and .007'' exhaust  So your .007" was probably OK. .005'' would be a bit on the tight side.
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
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1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

Charles 230SL

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2022, 14:33:11 »
Well, after a real close inspection of the thermo-time switch pod, I discovered that the bolt that secures the pod to the cylinder head has been seeping a bit of antifreeze. The antifreeze is being blown off the bottom of the pod and thence onto the side of the block where it meets the head. The antifreeze stains are between the fuel injection pump and the block and I was just barely able to get a dental-mirror view of the bottom of the pod. The white residue stains on the block made it appear exactly as though the seepage was coming from the head gasket.

As far as coolant reservoir over-pressurization from the alleged leaking head gasket, I cleaned the rubber seal on the reservoir cap, reseated it several times, and that resolved the leak from the reservoir.   

gosh, talk about overreacting - I was prepared to pull the engine! but you guys already know I don't always play with a full deck..,..  ;)
« Last Edit: March 07, 2022, 15:30:43 by Charles 230SL »

Cees Klumper

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2022, 00:57:37 »
I don't know Charles, at this stage I'd go ahead and pull the engine, just for good measure!  ;)
Cees Klumper
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