Mobil 1 Oil

[Alex D]

Agree with Cees here.  Using Rotella T4 along with several guys in local  MB club no problems. 

Mechanic who works on my car says the oil should be on the higher side of about 800-1,000 ppm zinc, nothing extreme needed lots of oils to choose from in 800-1,000 ppm range. 

[MarkCan]

Yes that's it. I got it on sale, ordered two cases, it was definitely not expensive.

I used Castrol GTX in my '90 Bronco II and my son's 1986 Nissan 300ZX and both developed a serious lifter tick right after I first used that oil. I switched to Shell  Rotella T4 (formulated I think for diesel engines, and high zinc content) and the lifter tick disappeared immediately. So I will not be using Castrol GTX anymore based on that experience.

My short observation was that the GTX became quite thin at temperature. While at startup pressure was excellent all the way down to idle. Than there was noticeable drop with the temps rising. I would say to much for my liking and I only hit 78deg.C as the thermostat just opened. I only used it to flush the engine after the rebuild. My theory here is; There is alway a reason if one product costs one third of the other.

[MikeSimon]

I very seldom listen to other people. Sometimes, however, it is a good thing to do!
One other advantage of Mobil1 synthetic is the avoidance of "sludge", which is a common side-effect of any dino oil.

[mdsalemi]

Most oil manufacturers have at least one oil formulation that is suitable for older engines, and thus contains high[er] levels of zinc and phosphorus.
Check the CURRENT MSDS or other data sheet.
There is a choice for everyone from every manufacturer. Sometimes in synthetic, sometimes in "Dino" and sometimes blended.

Note also that synthetic is kinda-sorta a misnomer. Synthetic is generally made FROM "Dino" oil feed stock or natural gas...pretty "Dino" based to me.

The most important difference is purity. Plenty of information to read on the matter.

As for pricing, I've been buying the Mobil1 in 5-quart jugs at Walmart for many years. It was generally in the $23 range, but seems to have jumped today to $27 or so.

Many of you know that in a full oil change--with filter--5 quarts doesn't quite cover it. Rather than open another 5-quart jug, I always sought out the same 20W-50 in a one-quart size, and at the local auto parts stores, it was always about--yikes--$10 a quart!

So, when this issue came up recently--again--about availability, I sought purchase again. Sure, it was at Walmart in the $27 5-quart jug, despite some thinking it was not available. So, further investigation found it at Napa. Less than $6/quart delivered in easy, convenient 1-quart bottles.

I found the 5 quart jugs convenient for purchase, less convenient in use!

[MikeSimon]

Mobil1 markets the 20W50 as a motorcycle oil (V-Twin) that's why it is so expensive. It used to be a regular oil, like the 10W50 and available in 5qt containers.

[mdsalemi]

Mobil1 markets the 20W50 as a motorcycle oil (V-Twin) that's why it is so expensive. It used to be a regular oil, like the 10W50 and available in 5qt containers.

Sorry to disappoint you Mike but that’s not accurate. you said yourself you don’t listen to other people too often but…

Go back to the data sheet I posted on the beginning of this thread. You will note that the 15W50 oil that I just purchased is separate and distinct product from the V twin oil; and yes the V twin motor oil specifically designed for four stroke motorcycle engines. You will also note there are three pages of Mobil 1 products in different grades and for different applications… and with different levels of zinc and phosphorus. I’m fairly certain that most larger oil manufacturers have an equally broad product portfolio.

These oils with the high levels of zinc and phosphorus are not recommended for use in modern cars with catalytic converters because they can poison the converter.

[MikeSimon]

Mike: Please go back to my post:

Mobil1 markets the 20W50 as a motorcycle oil (V-Twin) that's why it is so expensive

You said:

You will note that the 15W50 oil that I just purchased is separate and distinct product from the V twin oil;

Did I say it was?

In the not so distant past, the 20W50 was available alongside the other oils as a regular oil, not specifically branded for V-Twin.
I am operating 18 vehicles on a regular basis. Many do use Mobil1.

[mdsalemi]

Mike,

We've already determined you don't pay attention to anyone, that's by your own admission.

Last year, you brought up the same topic and complained about the unavailability of the proper Mobil1 for the Pagoda, which would be their 15W50. I pointed you to any number of local Walmart's that listed it as a stock item. This year's thread (this one here) on the topic was much the same, but Alfred actually pointed you to the precise store and even the aisle and shelf where you could find it. Crickets from you on that.

I uncovered that contrary to your claim of it being not made and unavailable, it was indeed still manufactured, the data sheets were available, and it was for sale and in stock in any number of retail locations including those close to your home. Maybe it's your nature to have others do your work for you, by asserting things and then waiting for an answer?

Pricing is very different on this oil, as it's a specialty oil. You can pay $10/quart and up in 1 quart sizes if you typically go other the counter at a local store. NAPA Online happened to have a deal on it that I took advantage of for $5.99, a monthly special. Walmart is consistently the best price and does have sales now and then on oils, if you watch out for them.

The V-Twin motorcycle oil you spoke about should NOT be brought up or discussed in this thread or the main topics here; it should go under "other cars" or "off topic". Motorcycles are not Pagodas. But contrary to your assertion about it being "so expensive", it's not. In many places, only marginally so; I've seen it for less than $10/quart at...

Walmart in your neighborhood...

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Mobil-1-V-Twin-Full-Synthetic-Motorcycle-Oil-20W-50-1-Quart/16767830 (Ship to store)

I can't tell you if its available in 5-quart jugs or not, but if you've got 18 vehicles in your fleet, buying in 1 quart or 5-quart jugs is probably not as preferable as in bulk, such as commercial sized totes. Contact a local lubricant supplier.

[MikeSimon]

Seriously Mike. What's your point?
Can't you see my post with the picture of the oil boxes that I bought from Napa, following your recommendation? Saying sometimes it is good to listen?
When I looked for a heavy weight Mobil1 last year, all over, I could not find it. Not at Walmart either.
As far as the 20W50 is concerned YOU brought it up, saying you used to add it to your 10W50 and it is pricey, thus my comment about it.

I have the feeling that you have that distinct urge to be right all the time and unfortunately, you don't even seriously look about what is part of the discussion.

I am signing off from this thread.

[ejboyd5]

For what it's worth, I'm a creature of habit and have been using Rotella T for well over 40 years. If it ain't broke, . . .

[MartinK]

Hei, first of all have a look at the manufacturer recommendations for engine oil. With this post comes my favorite picture. It shows the factory recommendations for M127/129/130.

The Pagoda engine is not engineered for  SAE 50 oil. The 15W50 is too sticky. It takes at cold start too much time until the oil is up in the oil pipe above the camshaft. The Camshaft bearing and the cam itself is only lubricated by downfalling oil, not with pressurized oil. Please control every year the oil pipe of the camshaft, that all holes are clear.

Mercedes recommends a SAE 30 for summer.

I say:  15W50 ist the wrong lubrication. 20W50 is the worst you can fill and SAE 60 is insane. Please do not fill any "Classic" fluids only by the reason of zinc. The qualities of lubricant are not only made by the amount of zinc. It depends on the overall formula and additives and the zinc additives are not the same. They differ in qualities! Please do not use a lubricant with "low ash" classification for direct injection engines. They have too less zinc additives.

I fill 0W40 Mobil1.

Take care. Martin.

[Benz Dr.]

I would think that a 15 40 oil, which is generally used in diesels, should work well in our cars. It's what we use for oil changes in the shop and it seems to work well. Higher detergent and zinc levels found in 15 W 40 oils are suitable for our engines. 

[MartinK]

Hei, Benz Dr. I follow your recommendation for running engines with high mileage. If you have a new or low mileage engine, a synthetic lubricant is an advantage. For example Mobil1 0W40. When it is warmed up, it is a SAE 40 with excellent cold start protection and a very high level of additives.


For those wha avoid a synthetic lubricant Europe ExxonMobil delivers a "10W40 Super 2000" is has a MB 229.1 and API SJ classification.

In the U.S. you find following products depending on your favorite synthetic or conventional.

https://www.mobil.com/en/lubricants/for-personal-vehicles/our-products/products/mobil-1-high-mileage-10w-40/

https://www.mobil.com/en/lubricants/for-personal-vehicles/our-products/products/mobil-super-10w-40/

I think this is great for used and new engines with older technology but well engineered with current technology.

Isn't 15w50 an oil for air cooled motorcycle engines?

With too high SAE classes the engine is during cold start because of the construction of the camshaft not well protected. Our engines do not need high grade SAE, I would say it is a mistake.

Take care, Martin.

[MikeSimon]

I did not want to participate in this thread anymore for obvious reasons, but I may have to contribute some minor things:
The zinc - ZDDP - content is important and necessary for valvetrains with "flat tappets", i.e.: non-roller rockers such as our SL engines.
We have an ExxonMobile employee in our BMW club and I asked him about the history of the ..W50 oils:
A few years ago, ExxonMobile discontinued the regular Mobil1 20W-50 for automotive applications and introduced the 20W-50 for motorcycles (V-Twin), usually priced in the $10.-/quart range
In order to avoid confusion, they reformulated and rebranded the former 20W-50 automotive oil into a 15W-50 and started to market that again next to the ..W-40.
All these terms like "too slippery", "too sticky" are really non-scientific and caused by shade-tree mechanics who have personal preferences and try to justify their choice with dubious unfounded claims of oil properties.
To a large part, oil specifications are driven by engine design and legal requirements. Modern gasoline engine cars have catalytic converters and oil additives have to be formulated to consider this. Diesel engine cars do not. The same or similar applies to "friction inhibitors". Older design gasoline engines will run and perform fine on Diesel engine oil.
The main reason I have been using synthetic oils everywhere I can is because of the catastrophic effect "sludge bulid-up" can have on an engine. In addition, I have several vehicles for which the manufacturer specifies synthetic oil.

[MartinK]

Dear Mike. Please apologize but my native language is not English.

My Brother is engineer employed at ExxonMobil Europe and he earns his money with consulting clients who have lubricant problems and he analyzes engines after damage or he helps customers to find the right oil for their application.

First of all it is necessary to have a look at the manufacturer recommendations. In case of the Pagoda it is a 10W30. Look at the drivers manual as I showed.

Normally it is no problem to use one SAE grade higher. In case  of the Pagoda it is xxW40 instead of xxW30. There is no reason to go two grades higher than recommended.

The cold SAE grade could be lower than the  manufacturer recommendations. Mercedes recommends 10W for the Pagoda.

Concerning wear protection with zinc we discussed with the ExxonMobil research and development headquarters Europe. In results the Zinc-Complex anti wear protection is important, yes. But this is not the only anti-wear additive in an oil formula.  And there are highly different qualities of the zinc additives. Exxxon-Mobil regular uses high quality anti-wear additives. If you use a Exxxon-Mobil product for passenger cars (not low ash!) You can be sure that that it works in our pagoda. Most old engines have tappets or conventional rocker arms. The pagoda is not a spaceship. Sorry for that.

Some people think that a SAE 50 has a better wear protection than a SAE 30 and this is bullshit. It depends highly on the formula and additives.

Take care, Martin

[mdsalemi]

Oil manufacturers have no interest in selling you or recommending the wrong oil. That's one reason why they formulate so many grades. What they would prefer that you stick with their branding, and choose the proper oil from within their brand. So, a 15W50 oil has certain recommended uses in automotive, as does a 20W50, or 5W30.

In my old "foreign cars" of yesteryear, old Austins and MGs, etc. we always used Castrol 10W40, until they made a -50 weight. The reason we chose that, perhaps as just shade tree mechanics, is that these old engines were being utilized at much higher RPMs than they were for the English country roads for which they were initially designed.

Fast forward to today, and my current daily driver is just lumbering along at just over 2,000 RPM, with an extremely efficient cooling system, compared to my Pagoda. The same 75-80MPH highway speed is now at 4,000 RPM and running with a less efficient cooling system. Just a WAG here, but I would suspect that the engine oil requirements (less RPM, lower temp vs higher RPM, higher temp) would be different. On my many long trips in the Pagoda from Michigan to PUB, my car was doing 3800-4200 RPM for hours on end, frequently in the hot ambient temperatures of summer. The last long trip was Charlottesville to Michigan, a 600 mile, 9 hour drive done all at these speeds. I suspect that the 15W50 was a better oil to use than a 5W30.

Engine technology is wildly better today than 50 years ago. My Pagoda does 180HP stated with 2.8L, or 64.3 HP/L. My daily driver has 82 HP/L, and gets nearly 50% better fuel economy while unladen, weighs 62% more. Nothing special about my driver; it's just more modern, but hardly state of the art.

Oil has drastically changed too. The SAE specs SA, SB, SC, SD, SE, SG, SH are all obsolete, being obsoleted by engine technology. Current are SJ-SN Plus. Thus, utilizing any older recommendations from printed documentation of "the era" (say 1963-1971) doesn't take into account the oils of today, just the oils of the era--for which the specs are all obsolete.

One can comment all they want about not needing so much zinc and or phosphorus, but today's oils don't have them because first, they don't need them for modern engines and second, they will "poison" a catalytic converter.

So, when any oil manufacturer--I don't care if it's Castrol, Mobil1, Valvoline, Penn, Amsoil, or whatever--recommends a specific oil for older engines, I'm going to take their recommendation.

The best oil is one frequently changed!

[MartinK]

Hei. With the recommendations it works this way: the manufacturer of the car or the engine recommends a certain viscosity and quality of the oil. This recommendation is the basement for choosing the oil. With that recommendation (for example 5W30) you go to your favorite lubricant manufacturer and look what lubricant this company has in stock to come close to the engines requirements. This is the way. Not vice versa. Take care, Martin

[MikeSimon]

Martin: Your English is fine. My native language isn't English either
I don't think all of our arguments are basically different at all.
I do disagree with the need for a high ZDDP level. We may argue about how high, but we have to agree it is there. I don't care much about other additives for an older car and as Mike says, the duty cycle of a W113 is substantially different today than it was 40 years ago. With the exception of Dan's "Red Rocket", maybe.
The issue is, ZDDP has been phased out due to specification requirements and thus the search for an oil with high level, leading us to the Mobil 15W-50 (and 20W-50) before.
Also, back in the 70s, everybody was using single weight oils, like SAE30. Hardly anybody knew of a "Mehrbereichsöl". And manufacturers recommended accordingly trying to make sure to recommend oils that were widely available.

[MartinK]

Hei Mike.

I do hardly not unterstand why always SAE 50 and high-higher-highest zinc is told as the "must have". There are much other points which have to be kept in mind.

The oil has to flush and to cool down the bearings. A main aim of the engine oil is cooling and lubrication.

For example

 https://www.mobil.com/en/lubricants/for-personal-vehicles/our-products/products/mobil-1-fs-0w-40

and

https://www.mobil.com/en/lubricants/for-personal-vehicles/our-products/products/mobil-1-high-mileage-10w-40

have 1000ppm zinc and come closer to the MB recommendation.

I use FS x 0w40 after discussing with ExxonMobil research and development that 1000ppm is absolutely alright together with the other additives to prevent wear. They say that the oil flush for cooling and lubrication of the cold engine. And for the most weak point of the not pressurized lubrication of the camshaft and rocker arms the grade should not be too high to be safe at cold temperatures.

By the way, I have a 230SL "rocket" , too. With a balaced engine, lighter and shorter pistons, new longer con-rods. 250SL head with "hot" 230SL cam, 2.4 Liter, between 2500 and 5500 constantly more than 200Nm with a maximum of 210Nm and 159HP at 5800 on the dyno. Injection pump special tuned for that engine by Hans Fritzsche.

In Germany today we have blue sky and nice sun but in the morning you have 5 degrees Celsius. I do not want to start my engine with a 15W or 20W at that temperatures.

Take care, talk soon. Martin

[Benz Dr.]

Martin: Your English is fine. My native language isn't English either
I don't think all of our arguments are basically different at all.
I do disagree with the need for a high ZDDP level. We may argue about how high, but we have to agree it is there. I don't care much about other additives for an older car and as Mike says, the duty cycle of a W113 is substantially different today than it was 40 years ago. With the exception of Dan's "Red Rocket", maybe.
The issue is, ZDDP has been phased out due to specification requirements and thus the search for an oil with high level, leading us to the Mobil 15W-50 (and 20W-50) before.
Also, back in the 70s, everybody was using single weight oils, like SAE30. Hardly anybody knew of a "Mehrbereichsöl". And manufacturers recommended accordingly trying to make sure to recommend oils that were widely available.

The Red Rocket has had very little use over the past couple of years. Aside from the weekend in Niagara Falls last year I only had it out once. I'd be very interested in hearing about the Euro Red Rocket though.

I've always used synthetic in my car. Everything has it, power steering, transmission, rear axle, grease, and engine. I've been using Castrol 10 W 40 but I've used other brands as well. Something to note: 20 W 50 is very close in viscosity to 80 W 90 gear lube. Applications are different of course, viscosity, not so much.

[MikeSimon]

I don't know how many of you are members of other forums related to motor vehicles, but all of them that I know consider this the "terrible oil thread" and most frown upon them. So much that some admins close them or even block them all together. There are as many different opinions about what the "best" oil is as there are members in a forum and the thread will go on forever.
This here started out as a post about availability of a certain oil and was supposed to help those who are interested in it find a source to buy it. Of course, it soon morphed into the "oil thread".
I blame myself for getting tangled in it.

[Benz Dr.]

It's spring in the northern hemisphere. This thread is as natural and expected as seeing tundra swans flying north this time of year.

[Shvegel]

I used to have a customer who was a fluid engineer.  I once asked him why people didn't recommend Mobil One for older engines and he explained his theory to me.  He felt that since Synthetic oils generally had a longer change interval that they generally have a much higher level of detergents in them.  Anyone who has ever torn down a 200,000 mile engine run on Mobil One could likely confirm that.  His theory was some of the older rubber formulations in the seals didn't like the makeup of the detergents in the Mobil One.  Basically he believed the seals were softened by the detergents in the oil.  He figured only original seals or very old seals "MIGHT" have a problem but certainly not an engine that had been rebuilt in the past 20 years or so. 

[Mike Hughes]

I'm going to alter the direction of this thread by relating an experience one of my fellow M.G. Car Club acquaintances had when switching to Mobil 1.  When it first came out back in the 70's Mobil advertising suggested that, even though Mobil 1 was rather more expensive that traditional motor oil, one could expect to save money overall because one could extend oil change intervals up to 20,000 miles.  So this member changed over to Mobil 1 when he did the next oil and filter change on his MGB.  It seems that he must have thought that if one needn't change the oil for 20,000 miles it wouldn't be necessary to check it for 20,000 miles either, and he ran his bearings one sunny afternoon a year or so later running down I-95 to Richmond!

[MartinK]

I'd be very interested in hearing about the Euro Red Rocket though.

Hei, it is a black rocket...

Stay happy, drive Pagoda.