SOLD Bring a Trailer 1967 250SL

[AdelaidePagoda]

Great result! USD$225,000

Early 250, very original condition, rare 5 speed, low mileage, lots of options, great color combination, well maintained with full provenance and matching numbers.

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1967-mercedes-benz-250sl-40/

Over priced, underpriced or great investment?

[Cees Klumper]

Overpriced by about $100K at least. But what do I know. Many other fine Pagodas sold in the $50K range on  BAT recently.

[Garry]

A Pagoda 5 speed will run at AUD$300,000+ here in Australia so from an Australian perspective it appears to be a reasonable price, but ours are RHD so even harder to find and has some bearing on prices.  Not so sure on the good investment though.

[MikeSimon]

I followed this auction. interesting result. What always amazes me about BaT is, that people ask very basic questions about a vehicle which prove that they know very little about them, but then shell out bids in excess of 100K for it...

Overpriced?.. I could not tell. It depends a lot for who. For me, yes. But if you buy a solid 250SL 5spd and have it brought up to the same condition as this car, you would probably spend that much.
Underpriced?..Hardly. Don't think it was a "steal"
Great Investment?... Not for the buyer, but for all of us who own a lesser car, because it will make the value of ours go up.

[zak]

I also watched that auction and got the impression right away that the car was especially well preserved original and cared for with FSH , original owner and 5 spd.
It seemed all the comments were very positive and almost reverential ( save for Cees ) with the price jumping high right away.

There is another " perfect " condition red 250 SL for sale I saw. It had a big spread in The Star even, a while back. But that has been bouncing around on the market for almost 3 years at a quarter million bucks $$$ and remains unsold. Now I think it's with Motoring Investments . That seemed comparable to this BAT sold car to my amateur eye , but still remains unsold.

Yes, prior to this Pagodas seemed to be selling in the $50 - 60 K range on a regular basis.

jz

[lowpad]

Speaking as a long-term 230 owner, I think an early 250 is just about the perfect compromise between the nice early details of the 250 and the hardier engine of the 280. Of course, a European 280 is ideal (there was a very nice example at the AACA Nationals this past weekend), but this car stood out with a really nice color combination and great documentation. And it seems the market is mad for 5-speeds.

[teahead]

Lots of money just for that extra gear.

Can buy 3 decent 280SL stick shifts for that.  And get them converted to a Getrag 5-speed.

[lagolag]

Reflection on this nice 250SL.
Strange that a so well kept and well documented car has a aftermarket fuel cap!
The original fuel cap with the Benz Star is the icing on the cake!
Would also expect to see white wall tyres to justify the final price.

[john.mancini]

Overpriced! Absolutely. Even in this economy. For that money, buy a 4-speed 113 and then you'll have enough money left over to buy a brand new AMG GTC!

[Paul99]

so, controversial comment I'm sure...... A manual Pagoda?  Any manual Pagoda.  Personally i dont get it. Perfect Automatic car but any manual Merc I have driven I have hated.  Pagodas are not sport cars after all, just elegant grand tourers .

In fact apart from a "boy racer" sports car I would say Auto is the answer.  Seems strange to me that having put men on the moon 50 years ago, but we still have to wiggle a stick around every few minutes to make a car go forward.

I'm sure lots of people will say otherwise.  Personal choice of course. 

[JamesL]

[whispers quietly] agreed.

Caveat… if i was on a track or gloriously empty twisty roads, I’d want a manual. Or a Motorbike. 

[mdsalemi]

...A manual Pagoda?...I'm sure lots of people will say otherwise.  Personal choice of course.

I'm perfectly happy with my automatic. Automatic on anything. With all the traffic everywhere, shifting is just an annoyance...tell me anyone who enjoys a manual shift car in stop and go traffic and I'll tell you someone isn't being honest.

I drove one of those elusive ZF 5-speeds once and came away with "I can't believe what all the fuss is about". I'll have my automatic, thank you.

With 6-10 speed automatics being the norm these days, all computer controlled they shift better than most people do. Maybe not an F1 driver, but they are not most people.

A standard transmission offers little in the way of added fuel economy these days, they are that good. So it's really as you say, personal choice. Vroom vroom. Have fun no matter what you choose. On a Pagoda there's something for everyone. On a modern daily driver, very few can be had without an automatic...

[zak]

Since I was a kid I have always loved European cars over US models. US cars seemed big and brutish tanks compared to the svelte euro coupes that drove and handled so well. The used euro sports cars in the 70's and 80's were cheap and disposable and exotic. I'll bet I had a dozen different models over those years - from Saab 96s to Sunbeam Alpines and Rover 2000TCs and Alfas, VW bugs ,then I had a Porsche and Bimmer phase. 
Hence I drove manual transmissions for the first 10 years of my driving life and I loved it. But now I am down to only one manual trans car- my 250 SL with all the others being euros albeit auto trannies. I don't drive my pagoda in traffic or stop and go situations. I drive it a lot on curving mountain roads near my home ( as JamesL opines ) where downshifts and 2nd to 3rds never fail to put a smile on my face. It is just so much more engaging.
Sterling Moss's pagoda was a stick shift. That's good enough for me.

Hey, that made me remember - what ever happened with that fellow that thought he bought Moss's 230 sl or some such  ? Recall he posted here a year or two ago ?

jz

[Benz Dr.]

Why are ZF 5 speeds so valuable?  Because they're rare, with less than 2% of all cars built. And, unlike a ski rack or some other option, it's something that's actually useful. You can put a different 5 speed in your car and it can improve the drivability but it's still not a ZF. This is the one option that sets all other 113's apart, and whether you like them or hate them, the real money says otherwise.

I spent a couple of years in the early 90's looking for a 5 speed, back when few even knew about them. Was I wrong to do that?

[LakisAkylas]

Four years ago, I replaced the 4-gear box of my '71 280SL with a new ZF 5-gear box (from the recent rerun). The first four gears of the two boxes are virtually identical so there is no real difference in acceleration/performance. The significant (to me) advantage of the 5th gear is (relatively) relaxed cruising at highway speeds: 3,200 vs 4,000 rpm at 70 mph. Of course, this also can be achieved (at a fraction of the cost) by changing the rear axle; however, in a way it is a compromise.

Regarding the 1967 250SL BAT sale, it seems overpriced to me.  Less than a year ago, a fully restored at a high level (original) ZF 5-speed 280SL (silver on black leather) sold at about $175K.

Lakis Akylas

1971 280SL, anthracite gray metallic (DB172) on light gray MB tex, ZF 5-speed, limited slip differential

[Jordan]

so, controversial comment I'm sure...... A manual Pagoda?  Any manual Pagoda.  Personally i dont get it. Perfect Automatic car but any manual Merc I have driven I have hated.  Pagodas are not sport cars after all, just elegant grand tourers .

In fact apart from a "boy racer" sports car I would say Auto is the answer.  Seems strange to me that having put men on the moon 50 years ago, but we still have to wiggle a stick around every few minutes to make a car go forward.

I'm sure lots of people will say otherwise.  Personal choice of course.

Paul, if you do not get the allure of the stick you likely never will.  As you say, personal choice.

[MikeSimon]

I am with Paul and the others who vouch for an AT in the Pagoda. I do have manual transmission cars, my Corvette ZR1 has a ZF 6-speed, my 914-6 has a 5-speed, but I look at the Pagoda differently. I do not try to explore the limits of road handling and going fast in the SL. The whole suspension design with that terrible "Pendelachse" does not want me to go fast on a curvy road and frequently change gears. One other major issue is the clutch. It is a friction part and as such has limited life. As a shade-tree mechanic with limited means of changing the clutch myself in the garage, I do not want to do this. Each to his own. As some said, the Pagoda is not and never was a performance sports car and does not need a sports car transmission.
One side note: Many new non-manual transmissions are really not true "automatics" but "double clutch" designs, thus manuals that shift automatically.

[Mike Hughes]

This discussion about the automatic transmission in a Pagoda reminds me that the best reason why the shift quadrant is "backwards" compared to most floor mounted automatic transmission quadrants is to make a manual shift from 4th to 3rd seem just like a 4th to 3rd shift on a manual transmission equipped car. A Pagoda may not be a performance sports car but it is rewarding to drive and does respond well to spirited driving even with an automatic transmission.

[Bonnyboy]

Someday I hope to drive a Pagoda with a good working automatic - just to compare. 

The last two automatic Pagodas I drove had issues with the transmission so I suggested that they get the transmission looked and and apparently both work great now.   One guy was driving his car with a bad tranny for 5 years and thought that they just drove that way.  Once he got it fixed he said it was like a totally different car but he sold it before I could try it out. 

[Benz Dr.]

The auto trans on a 113 works in conjunction with the engine. If the kick down linkage is not working the car will drive like a dog - a very old and lazy one.

[Cees Klumper]

Apologies for some more off-topic content in this thread:

I found that, in addition to the kick-down being important, there is also a lot of variability between our cars in the point at which they will shift down under load. My own car for example would shift down fairly easily when I applied more throttle, or when there was say a small hill to climb. But, after the rebuilding of the engine, that changed quite a bit and the car became 'lazier', necessitating a lot more throttle, or even applying the kickdown switch or manually downshifting to get the same result. My conclusion was, since I had not touched anything on the transmission, that due to the rebuild there was more (or less, but likely more) vacuum being created in the intake plenum that the auto trans also connects to. So that, to get back to the same shifting characteristics, I would likely need to tweak the modulator that is on the trans. One of those things on my 'once I find the time' list ...

I still maintain this car sold for $100K more than it's worth, objectively and rationally. So to me it's a '$100K irrational premium'.

[mgmoore]

Every now and then a particularly nice pagoda with a nice colour, zf box comes to BAT and the buyers go a little bonkers and get carried away. Happy days for the seller, probably on a tropical Island celebrating his/her 100k surplus windfall on a completely overbid car! Still, give it another 20 years and the new owner should break even......!     

[Benz Dr.]

5 years tops, not 20 years. With the increasing prices of MB parts, we are already knocking on the 225K door right now as far as restoration costs.

It may come as a shock to some but there are buyers out there who know what certain rare cars should sell for. The car sold for that price because someone was willing to pay that much for it.

[Alex D]

Agree with Dan on this one.  A respected restorer whose name is mentioned here often told me recentley that any nut and bolt from the ground up Pagoda restoration is now in the $250k USD range and 3+ years due to the availability of parts.

Not just cars, but anything house, furniture,, is only worth what someone is willing to pay, and someone is willing to accept.

[MikeSimon]

Prices for CE vintage cars will take a nosedive in about 5-6 years when the push for EVs will further increase. The number of people who will be in the market for a gasoline powered car, especially vintage and collector cars will drastically decrease, mainly made up by those who do not drive but just keep them in storage/museum. And by then, most of them have what they want. If you are trying to make big bucks, sell as long as the prices are up. It will not last.