BMW as boutique manufacturer

[mdsalemi]

Though I'd disassociate this topic from Cees' wonderful topic about the amazing tape stripe job his wife did on the Bronco II.

I said that the first 3-series took BMW "from a small boutique manufacturer of funny looking cars to a world-class manufacturer of highly desirable performance cars and luxury cars."

Now you may interpret anything you like, or have your own subjective views on the matter but keep in mind some facts.

BMW did not have its first dealer in the USA until 1975. Until then, in the USA, its models were sold as merely add-ons to existing dealerships of other marques. You can't be a big player without a dealer network, and even that first dealership in 1975 didn't make a "network". You need to support your dealer network with advertising, co-op dollars, sales and service training, a complete parts and service supply chain and more. So even the first dealership doth not a network make. That evolved starting with that first dealer in 1975.

Yes, in the early 1970s BMW did sell the "Neue Klasse" as they called it, which was the cars starting with the 1500 in 1962 and ending with the 2000 in 1972. Then came the 02 series, based on the former but starting with the 1600 in 1966 and ending with the 2002 in 1977. While they made 377K units of the 2002 model from 1968-1975, things really began to move for BMW with that E21 intro. More than 1.3M units were made. Yes, they became a player.

It's important to remember also, that during the years of the Neue Klasse and the 02 series, they did make some other cars. My favorite is the 3.0CSi. But those other cars they made at the time were all very low unit volume. In fact these models of which the 3.0 was part of, the E9s, total volume was around 30K units from 1968-1975, across some 15 distinct models. Yes, that's low volume.

When that E21 was released to the USA in 1977, they also had the 5-series E12, (also a Bracq design) the 6-series E24 (yet again a Bracq design) and the 7-series E23. I don't believe this latter E23 was a Bracq style, but he did a 7-series during his tenure right around the time of the 1973 oil crisis and I believe that car was shelved. I don't know how the original design related to that produced later.

Thus, by the late 1970s, BMW had a reasonably complete line of luxury and sporting cars for the USA market and even more worldwide. So they did indeed move from a smaller manufacturer (I say boutique) to a larger one.

I also said "funny looking cars". Can anyone actually LOOK at a BMW Isetta, and not laugh? While not their own design per se they did plenty of work on it, "taking ownership" as it were and "making it their own".  It's a funny looking car. The BMW 2002 and its predecessors and peers in the 02 and earlier series were boxy cars that had a polarizing styling. The 3, 5, 6, 7 series all went away from that boxy polarizing style to one that had more appeal. Swoopy, curvy, beautiful...but not the jellybeans that everyone is making now.

I loved my 320i. It met an unfortunate demise in a fire due to an incorrectly sized battery being installed by Sears. I had made arrangements to sell my well-kept car, and was getting it ready for sale when it burned up. A very sad day--I had that car for 10 years and 100,000 miles as a daily driver and enjoyed every mile.

Speaking of polarizing, my daily driver is a Ford Flex. Those with a long memory may remember the press on that one when it came out; a refrigerator on its side, box on wheels, etc. Nothing really complimentary was ever said about its styling, perhaps the epitome of polarizing style. But its packed full of function and utility, and a fabulous car for long road trips and for hauling. When I'm driving it and using it, it's polarizing style is only for those outside the car. I'm behind the wheel! Sadly this one I have is the last.

[Mike Hughes]

The Flex was the best kept secret in the whole Ford passenger car lineup.  Built on the same chassis as the Explorer (which outsold it by a country mile) it had more cargo space, more second row seat room, more third row seat room, and the front seats were the most comfortable seats in any Ford product after the Crown Vic was discontinued.  In the case of the Flex, they designed an ideal interior, then wrapped an exterior around it. 

Folks would come into the dealership and start itemizing all the things they wanted in their next new vehicle.  Many times what they were describing was a Flex but they didn't know it.  But when I took them out on the lot to show them one, almost always they would throw their hands up in horror.  "Oh, no, not that!"  IF I could get them inside and then behind the wheel, a surprising number untimately realized what a great package it was ended up buying one.

[mbpaul]

BMW Germany may not have had their own BMW dealerships until 1975 but there were BMW dealerships in the USA before 1975.  I think at the earlier times the Hoffman organiztion was the importers.  My friend Gerhard Roshkosh was a mechanic in the Mercedes dealership in Albuquerque.  Gerhard opened his own independent service facility in 1968 after several year with the MB dealer.  I was visiting with him when the BMW person was begging him to be the BMW dealer.  After many promises of what they would provide, he became the BMW dealer.  He was exclusively BMW with no other makes sold.  He was the dealer for several years before finally selling it 20 years or so later.

I also remember a BMW dealership in Honolulu in the early 1960s.  It was the first time I had ever seen BMW cars and I really liked them.

[mdsalemi]

BMW Germany may not have had their own BMW dealerships until 1975...

Yes, the stories of Max Hoffman are long...and he was instrumental in so many European imports into the USA, the MB and BMW just two. Yes there were Hoffman Imports or whatever his franchise name was where you could buy 2002s. When BMW wanted to expand on their own they were in a legal battle with Hoffman...but you can find out that history in other places. My point was that they didn't really make the big time until that first 3, 5, 6 and later, 7 series cars came out; until then they were just imported by a guy who had probably 6-8 other marques to worry about. When BMW NA came about and when that 1977 320i came out, that's when they took off.

The Flex was the best kept secret in the whole Ford passenger car lineup...IF I could get them inside and then behind the wheel, a surprising number untimately realized what a great package it was ended up buying one.

I have had one continuously (one every year or two) since intro. When first introduced, the morons at Ford marketing decided it was a hip urban-cool car, and thought their target market was young urban city dwellers so they could all pack themselves in and go "clubbing" on a Friday or Saturday night. That was so far off the mark...and the ONLY marketing they ever did for this car. It sold well in California and Michigan, not much take rate in other places. In one of the first years I had one, my friend's family was going to go to Williamsburgh for Christmas. This family of 5 was planning on going in mom's sedan, a Cadillac. I offered up my Flex, and they loved it. When they got back, they ordered one. When they got their new Flex home, their neighbor came over, sat in it and went for a drive with them. SHE ended up buying one. Oh, did I mention my friend worked for GM?

It's been on the DNR list for a long time; the only reason they kept making them as long as they did was because of the MKT for the limo/hearse trade. I got one of the last ones, a 2019 model, in January 2020. My dealer said just keep extending the lease--Ford has about 250,000 firm orders for cars they cannot fulfill; there are no deals, and lease rates are astronomical. I'll keep this as long as I can until the lease folks demand it back. Then I'll get an Edge. >sigh<

[MikeSimon]

Although it may be of importance to assess the level of BMW as a manufacturer in the USA for a lot of people here on this forum as they reside in the U.S., but I think it is a little myopic to do so.
In the 1950s, BMW played quite a role in Germany as a supplier of upscale cars. The 501/502 was a direct competitor to the Mercedes 300 series, with the 502 and its V8 challenging the 300d Adenauer. Look at the 507 Sportscar, which, while not of the status of a 300SL, but also not far behind of the Roadster version.
Of course, they made really small cars, like the Isetta and the 700. But that had to do with the need to offer a budget product for the German population which was still in poor financial shape from the aftermath of WWII. My dad did not own a car until 1961 and all he could afford was a NSU Prinz.
When I started to drive in the early 70s, BMW was a well established manufacturer of luxury and performance cars. Hans Stuck jr. earned his first major victories on the tracks in a BMW 02.
The fact that they weren't omnipresent in the USA was most likely and economic decision. With an output of around 450,000 cars p.a. it seemed hardly feasible to invest in a larger scale export activity.

[mdsalemi]

Although it may be of importance to assess the level of BMW as a manufacturer in the USA for a lot of people here on this forum as they reside in the U.S., but I think it is a little myopic to do so.
In the 1950s, BMW played quite a role in Germany as a supplier of upscale cars. The 501/502 was a direct competitor to the Mercedes 300 series, with the 502 and its V8 challenging the 300d Adenauer. Look at the 507 Sportscar, which, while not of the status of a 300SL, but also not far behind of the Roadster version.
Of course, they made really small cars, like the Isetta and the 700. But that had to do with the need to offer a budget product for the German population which was still in poor financial shape from the aftermath of WWII. My dad did not own a car until 1961 and all he could afford was a NSU Prinz.
When I started to drive in the early 70s, BMW was a well established manufacturer of luxury and performance cars. Hans Stuck jr. earned his first major victories on the tracks in a BMW 02.
The fact that they weren't omnipresent in the USA was most likely and economic decision. With an output of around 450,000 cars p.a. it seemed hardly feasible to invest in a larger scale export activity.

The 507 nearly buried them. Gorgeous, rare, and a financial disaster. https://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/02/bmw-507-nearly-bankrupted-the-brand-now-sells-for-millions.html
The fact that it sells for millions now is irrelevant.

All the others you mention were extremely low volume. BMW was in regular financial straits.
Remember the 320i was for all intents and purposes, a 2002tii wrapped in a different body. Many mechanicals were the same. Engine identical. Yet the sales figures speak volumes.
This thread was because I claimed that BMW was a boutique manufacturer. With low volume production, that's boutique. They made a host of great cars as you point out. Few of them in any volume until the 02 klasse came out, and even then this was a fraction of the 3 series.

When the Bracq designed 3, 5, and 6 series cars came out, they changed. For the better. They changed from boutique to world class...where they remain.

[MikeSimon]

Once again, I take a slightly different stand on a detail. While the engines in the 2002tii and 320i both were variants of the original M10 with 1990cc, the 2002tii engine (1970) was internally known as M15 and had Kugelfischer FI, a carryover from the 1970 2000tii, whereas the 320i (came out in 1975, in US 1977) was the M43/1 with Bosch K-Jetronic

[Mike Hughes]

I got one of the last ones, a 2019 model, in January 2020. My dealer said just keep extending the lease--Ford has about 250,000 firm orders for cars they cannot fulfill; there are no deals, and lease rates are astronomical. I'll keep this as long as I can until the lease folks demand it back. Then I'll get an Edge. >sigh<

I might suggest it's a keeper.  The residual value is reduced by the principal amount of each of your extension payments. By the time the lease folks pull your chain the residual will be so low compared to current inflated used car values that it would be a crime to give it back to them.  You, the lessee, are the only one who can buy it at the reduced residual value (dealers have to pay current auction value - way higher!) and register it in your name.  In the current market, you will be stealing a good used car - the best kind, one you know everything about!

[66andBlue]

...
Now you may interpret anything you like, or have your own subjective views on the matter but keep in mind some facts.

I also said "funny looking cars". Can anyone actually LOOK at a BMW Isetta, and not laugh?

Now if that isn't a very subjective view then tell me how you define subjective!

Take a look at the dapper gentleman below and tell me if he shares your view. He seems to be quite happy and not embarrassed at all. 

Have you ever driven an Isetta more than 10 miles?

[Mike Hughes]

My lovely bride told me that when she was growing up in Chile, Isettas and Messerschmits were called "streetcar suppositories."

[mdsalemi]

Alfred—interpretation again. Some may say the always dapper Cary Grant is smiling. Another view is that he’s laughing at the “funny looking car” that somebody placed him in for a photo op! 😉 No never even sat in one much less driven for 10 miles.  My preference for funny looking German cars would be Amphicar and my all time favorite, a Gogomobil Cabrio.

Mike Hughes—Ford has some interesting programs now that you wouldn’t know about since you have retired. One of them now will be to turn [part of] the difference between lease residual and current book value into a lease buydown on a new car. They’ve recognized certain peculiarities such as the lease residual on our Escape hybrid being about $7k less than current market value. Absent a program like that we’d be crazy not to buy it at lease end. The problem is getting a new replacement.  There’s nothing on the lots. Normally we’d order and it would be 6 weeks to delivery. Now? A crap shoot. 🤔 Everything is a complete mess.

MikeSimon—I give up. BMW’s relatively low volume of 02 production coupled with extremely low volume of any other offerings (early 1970s) made it a world-class automotive manufacturer. In the mid 70s, the establishment of a USA dealer network of its own, the introduction of a newly styled line of cars including the 3, 5, and 6–and later 7 series, and the much larger volumes and wider appeal these created are merely irrelevant data. They didn’t change BMW at all. Believe that if you like.

Paul Bracq came to BMW in 1970. Those new 3, 5, and 6 were under his style and guidance. He left in 1974 when they hired other designers at a much higher rate of pay, designers who didn’t have the oeuvre of Bracq. He packed it in and returned to France.

[MikeSimon]

Michael: You seem to be one of the people who think "World Class" revolves all around the U.S. Like "World Series" of sports mainly played in the U.S., and Soccer being a "niche" sport. I did agree that BMW was a "low volume" manufacturer, but that is only when you compare it to the quantities made in the U.S. When BMW made 400,000 vehicles, Volkswagen, the largest German car manufacturer made barely more than 1 million. You wouldn't call Ferrari or Aston Martin or Rolls Royce not "World Class"?
In the early 70s before BMW came to the U.S., they were a force to reckon with in Europe, on the street and on the race circuit. I owned a 02 with a Schnitzer engine which in race set-up, put out 160hp in a carbureted configuration.

[66andBlue]

.... No never even sat in one much less driven for 10 miles.  ...

Thats what I expected based on your lack of hands-on knowledge about these cars.

Paul Bracq came to BMW in 1970. Those new 3, 5, and 6 were under his style and guidance. He left in 1974 when they hired other designers at a much higher rate of pay, designers who didn’t have the oeuvre of Bracq. He packed it in and returned to France.

And the gaslighting continues, Monsieur Bracq, the one and only stylist worth mentioning. 

BMW has a long history of collaborating with well known designers and stylists, for example, Bertone who designed the 3200CS and introduced the Hofmeister kink visible on all BMW models including on those that Bracq signed off.
Marcello Gandini, while working for Bertone, co-designed the exterior of the E12. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_5_Series_(E12))
Others like Frua build prototypes for BMW and while they did not go into production influenced many later designs.

All of these great designers over more than a century are mentioned here, I am certain you will recognize a few:
https://bmwism.com/bmws-designers/

[PSB]

Perhaps I may be misreading the argument ... But when I was a kid in the mid 70s in Souhtern Africa my father had a 2800s and my mother a 3.0 L. At least in the area of the world they were considered top of the range , world class cars. Unless you jumped onto RR or Bentelys ( excluding the sports ferraris , Porsche etc ) these large cars were definitely the top 3 list with Jaguars XJ and the large 280/300 Mercedes. BmW were also a bit less "common " as in fact their production numbers were lower .
But also ( again just referring to Southern Africa experience ) the appearance of the 5 series and especially the 3 series were what caused the jump in production numbers. If I'm not mistaken that's also in the early 70s when BMW factories/ assembly ..took off in South Africa. I think the plant near Pretoria was the first manufacturing facility outside Germany. But BMw had great, reputable , high end cars starting before those more successful and higher production series.
Regards
Pedro

[Mike Hughes]

The first BMW Neue Klasse I remember seeing was our next-door neighbor's dark grey 1600 4dr sedan.  This was in Taiwan in 1966.  Mr. Van Heerdens and his family had just arrived to take up his position at the Embassy of South Africa in Taipei.  I thought it was a really cool car - much cooler than the Opel Diplomat that our German neighbors on the other side drove.

[franjo_66]

When that E21 was released to the USA in 1977, they also had the 5-series E12, (also a Bracq design) the 6-series E24 (yet again a Bracq design) and the 7-series E23. I don't believe this latter E23 was a Bracq style, but he did a 7-series during his tenure right around the time of the 1973 oil crisis and I believe that car was shelved. I don't know how the original design related to that produced later.

Paul Bracq did indeed design the first generation E23 (7 series) - mine is a nice stable mate for my Bracq designed 230SL

[Mike Hughes]

When that E21 was released to the USA in 1977, they also had the 5-series E12, (also a Bracq design) the 6-series E24 (yet again a Bracq design) and the 7-series E23. I don't believe this latter E23 was a Bracq style, but he did a 7-series during his tenure right around the time of the 1973 oil crisis and I believe that car was shelved. I don't know how the original design related to that produced later.

Thanks, but I think that quote originated with Michael Salemi (Reply #1).  I was aware that Paul Bracq had been associated briefly with BMW, but had no idea he had influenced so many models in his brief tenure.  I sort of wish he was being consulted now - recent BMW styling has bordered on the grotesque.

[MikeSimon]

  - recent BMW styling has bordered on the grotesque.

..so much that the rear end - trunk design - was nicknamed the "Bangle Butt"

https://www.wired.com/2009/02/chris-bangle-le/

[Cees Klumper]

I remember being an 18 year old, impressed that the BMW 1600 of our neighbor was able to pull all the way to 80 KMH in second gear. But that's about all I remember from the BMWs in my youth as I was growing up in the sixties and seventies in The Netherlands, with plenty of German (and French, Italian, Swedish and Dutch) cars around. Most of what I remember being on the streets that time were Beetles, Opel Kadetts, and 2 CVs.

[MikeSimon]

Cees, I don't know how much older or younger than me you are, but I grew up in Germany in the 60s and 70s and I do remember quite a few BMWs then. Sure, the Opels and VWs (and Fords) were abound as they offered the most economic products.

[Cees Klumper]

I'm from 1960 Mike.
Thanks for reminding me of the Fords - they were also omni-present (Taunus, Escort, Granada, Fiesta and so on). There was even an assembly plant in Amsterdam at one point.

[MikeSimon]

How about them DAFs, Cees? I remember my elementary school teacher was a fan of the Netherlands and spent many of his family vacations there. During art classes, his youngest son, who was in my class, painted strange pictures of cars and told us, they were DAFs. We other kids had never seen one and believed him...

[Cees Klumper]

Yes the DAFs were in a class of their own. Firstly because they were manufactured in the Netherlands. DAF stands for Doornse Auto Fabriek and DAF trucks perhaps even to this day soldier on. Secondly because they were all automatics, or more correctly, Variomatics - they had vacuum operated CVT transmissions. I owned one for one winter. Bought it so that I would not need to to the 40 mile each way commute to college in my cherished Spitfire. Bought it for $150 and sold it for the same price. It was a DAF 55, successor to the one in the picture you posted, a DAF 33 and it was quite comfortable. The engines in them were Renault sourced I believe.
Volvo acquired DAF and for a while the DAF 66 was sold as a Volvo, after slapping those huge safety bumpers on them. Later on the factory that produced them started building cars for other makes including BMW. So now we are back to the topic at hand!

[MikeSimon]

DAF Trucks is still producing. They are owned by U.S. based PACCAR Corp. which also owns Kenworth and Peterbilt. During the consolidation period of truck Diesel engines and the push of most manufacturers to use proprietary engines, PACCAR introduced a line of DAF designed and partially manufactured engines in their trucks in the U.S.

[neelyrc]

A couple of very nice BMW roadsters during the final stage of the Mille Miglia today at Varano de’ Melegari Italy.

According to the entry list number 108 is a model 328 from 1938.  Number 407 is listed as a model 507 from 1956.