Author Topic: Consumer Reports 2023 least reliable Brand Mercedes  (Read 5627 times)

dpreston Virginia

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Consumer Reports 2023 least reliable Brand Mercedes
« on: December 09, 2022, 16:01:50 »
Isn't it unbelievable that Mercedes is dead last in making reliable cars. Spending too much time and money on innovation and less on day to day manufacturing is my guess.
I never minded paying extra for my Mercedes daily driver but this makes me think twice.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2022/11/15/reliability-cars-consumer-reports-ranking/10703135002/
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rwmastel

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Re: Consumer Reports 2023 least reliable Brand Mercedes
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2022, 16:44:14 »
Ugh.
Rodd

Did you search the forum before asking?
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Jack the Knife

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Re: Consumer Reports 2023 least reliable Brand Mercedes
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2022, 18:14:42 »
Mercedes has excelled at Rube Goldberg machines that power ridiculous gimmicks for the last few decades. Does one really need:
  • 800 customizable settings in the entirely digital console
  • Eye-tracking nannies
  • Facial and fingerprint recognition
  • Ghastly augmented-reality driver assistance
  • Horrible Tesla-like door handles
  • 23-inch wheels on the GLS
  • Absurd smartphone apps
  • Gesture-based light controls

I haven't been in a brand-new Mercedes in a bit, but do they still have the ridiculous little dainty seatbelt butler thing? The one that extends the top of the belt towards you? Talk about a complicated solution to a problem no one asked about.
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bogeyman

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Re: Consumer Reports 2023 least reliable Brand Mercedes
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2022, 18:23:01 »
Any poll that has BMW #3 in reliability is not believable.
Rick Bogart
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Pinder

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Re: Consumer Reports 2023 least reliable Brand Mercedes
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2022, 18:24:16 »
I can attest to the fact my 2021 GLS 450 with only around 3000 mile on it failed to start due to a software update, requiring a tow to the dealership and being not usable for 2 weeks. I would never recommend getting one and is going to be the last Mercedes I every lease or buy. I  was also denied a loaner car unless i took it to the dealership I bought it from which is a 2.5 hour drive.

It also still continues to have strange behavoir when it comes to automatically and forcefully correct the steering wheel when it tries to keep you in lane.
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MikeSimon

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Re: Consumer Reports 2023 least reliable Brand Mercedes
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2022, 19:03:45 »
Times have changed since the 70s and 80s. When I worked for Vickers, who made the power steering pump for DB, they were our largest customer. Our engineering department actually shared several patents with DB engineers. Daimler Benz always claimed they had a responsibility for the local economy as the largest manufacturer in the Stuttgart area and gave small local suppliers preference - see Beru. Then, slowly in the early 90s, they followed the trend that all Automotive OEMs pursued: Sourcing from "Emerging Markets". More and more parts from Japan, Korea, Taiwan and China found their way into their products. Often was quality sacrificed for price/cost. The name of the game today. "Made in Germany" as a synonym for "Quality" has long lost its luster.
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badali

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Re: Consumer Reports 2023 least reliable Brand Mercedes
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2022, 20:48:49 »
I have a 2019 E450 and 2022 GLC 300.  The E450 has been trouble free.  It has driver assist, air suspension and with $15k in options.  I'm over 57,000 miles and it is the best car I've owned.  The GLC has over $9000 in options including Drive assist also.  We have had it only a little over a month with just 1,000 miles on it.  So far so good.  Both were assembled in (Sindelfingen E450) and (Bremen GLC300) Germany.  79% German parts on one and 78% on the other.  My local dealership is easy to deal with and always gives a loaner when they are in for service.  I guess the survey depends on who they ask...
Brad

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zak

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Re: Consumer Reports 2023 least reliable Brand Mercedes
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2022, 21:40:28 »
 It really sucks to read that.  Sad to think. Many of us have been loyal MB customers forever.
I haven't bought another brand car in decades and have owned a few dozen MBs. It breaks my heart.
Our local dealer here in northern NJ USA is great though. I always get an MB loaner too.
I was actually there the other day talking to the sale people about buying a 2022 GLE and trading in my DD ML250 diesel with 150K miles. Really for no reason other than ego of having a new MB.
For sure I won't do it now. The ML diesel is rock solid.

But what's the informed alternative for a new car these days. ????

jz
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Colingo

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Re: Consumer Reports 2023 least reliable Brand Mercedes
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2022, 21:52:46 »
I had an E430 and an E55 the gearbox blew on both in the 00's. My local garage keeps telling me to stay away from German cars.  We've all been brainwashed by the German reliability propaganda - true in the 60's 70's and 80's, but declining thereafter.

GM

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Re: Consumer Reports 2023 least reliable Brand Mercedes
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2022, 22:23:18 »
Maybe it's just me, but the reliability of cars went out the window with computerization being added.
Computers were never designed for the rigors of environmental extremes, vibration, etc
Now add the glitches we all experience with software problems in our home and work computers, well, you get the idea.
I view design and functionality of software requires a unique skillset (like letting the public de-bug the software for you) that is incompatible with a car manufacturer's DNA. And the car marketing people go crazy adding unnecessary functionality to be cute, only to have those features inevitably fail.
Sigh...
« Last Edit: December 09, 2022, 23:02:05 by GM »
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teahead

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Re: Consumer Reports 2023 least reliable Brand Mercedes
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2022, 22:56:49 »
Talked to a Merc mechanic.

Asked him what years of Benz is the most UNreliable.

He said all the new ones.

 :o
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lreppond

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Re: Consumer Reports 2023 least reliable Brand Mercedes
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2022, 23:26:50 »
The digital world demands change.  Things are not made to last but rather made to be obsolete and replaced as technology changes. From home appliances to TVs to cars…technology is evolving so quickly that permanence is no longer. Ten years is an eternity in the age of computers.   Like it or not, that’s the world in which we live. 

Will the cars of today be collectible in 50 years?  Will they even be repairable when the electronics of today are no longer manufactured?  The phrase “forever cars” ended with the digitalization of automobiles.
~Len

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bogeyman

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Re: Consumer Reports 2023 least reliable Brand Mercedes
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2022, 23:49:38 »
My 2 "drivers" are a 2012 E550 4matic that I love. No problems but I have only had it 3 years.
My wife's 2007 E320 Bluetec Diesel we've had for 15 years. 2 repairs in that time other than regular maintenance. It's still on the original battery...

Luck of the draw??
Rick Bogart
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Cees Klumper

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Re: Consumer Reports 2023 least reliable Brand Mercedes
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2022, 01:25:31 »
I just bought a 2013 GLK250 Bluetec (diesel) with 202,000 miles and full dealer service history - always been around San Diego, records show no repairs, only basic maintenance (one new windshield along the way). I also bought a professional bi-directional scanner to probe deep inside all systems and it only has a single code: not being able to connect to the mother ship (which is correct, since I haven't subscribed to that service). The scanner also informed me that the last time any codes were cleared was some 10K miles ago - so it's truly 'clean'. It looks and drives like new, really like new including the driver's seat, which after 202,000 miles (320,000 kms) is remarkable. 369 lb-ft / 500 nm of torque and 200 hp, 28 mpg mostly around town driving yet 4,300 lbs/2,000 kg in weight. So far so good, it's been the best $8,000 used car I've bought, touch wood. I like the modern electronics as the car most of the time will pinpoint what's wrong. A misfire last summer on my 2002 Volvo S80 T6 was resolved in 30 minutes as the computer told me which of the 6 cylinders had a bad coil. Similar on the airbag light that appeared a few years back on that car - computer said it's the driver's seat upper-left airbag (out of the 12 possible suspects). $70 in a good used airbag and some hours later and it was resolved.
Cees Klumper
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Jack the Knife

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Re: Consumer Reports 2023 least reliable Brand Mercedes
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2022, 02:24:57 »
The digital world demands change.  Things are not made to last but rather made to be obsolete and replaced as technology changes. From home appliances to TVs to cars…technology is evolving so quickly that permanence is no longer. Ten years is an eternity in the age of computers.   Like it or not, that’s the world in which we live. 

Will the cars of today be collectible in 50 years?  Will they even be repairable when the electronics of today are no longer manufactured?  The phrase “forever cars” ended with the digitalization of automobiles.

But is it just the digital world? It was Harvey Earl that coined/implemented "dynamic obsolescence" as a policy at GM back in the late-30s. It has always been a part of the world of modern product design, though some brands did pride themselves on durability and longevity of their products -- which also improve every year, and they'd let you know!

I suppose the key difference now is that the old stalwarts of reliability and relative "timelessness" of design really aren't anymore. Honestly with Mercedes I think it was the moment Bruno Sacco retired and they adopted that offensive melting soap styling across all their cars. Of course, you had issues like biodegradable wiring harnesses and such ahead of then... an idea so braindead it takes the cake from whoever designed the BMW E9's dissolving rockers and fender rust compartment.

I will say Ferrari has gotten slightly more reliable over time. But they had a very low bar to surmount.  ;D
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ja17

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Re: Consumer Reports 2023 least reliable Brand Mercedes
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2022, 02:27:32 »
The amount of problems increases with complexity. Very complex vehicles do not age well. Surprising that Porsche is noticeably missing from the good or bad list here. They are normally highly ranked.
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Mike Hughes

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Re: Consumer Reports 2023 least reliable Brand Mercedes
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2022, 15:05:01 »
This is the second time in recent memory that Mercedes-Benz has plummeted to near the bottom of the pack in quality/reliability surveys. 

The first time was in the decade after the Daimler/Chrysler "merger of equals."  When the two companies announced their merger back in 1998, many of us in the business here in the U.S. thought that if Mercedes management could teach Chrysler, which had always had a good engineering reputation, how to improve vehicle assembly quality then the various Chrysler Corp. brands might become formidable competition.  Instead, Chrysler management taught Mercedes how to shave pennies on component purchases and build a car down to a price.  Within a matter of years Mercedes-Benz appeared at the bottom of the J.D. Power initial quality survey - if I remember, only Kia was lower. 

Commendably, Daimler worked hard to salvage its quality reputation, shed Chrysler, and eventually regained its status near the top of the quality/reliabliity surveys.  It's sad to see Mercedes-Benz appearing at the bottom of a quality/reliability list again, but I think I can understand why:

Mechanically, most every vehicle offering today is pretty darned trouble-free.  The current industry fad to one-up the competition with increasingly complicated computerized whiz-bang techno features is proving to be a problem for all manufacturers.  In the old days recalls were primarily to correct mechanical issues.  Most of today's recalls are to reprogram processors.  When one acquires a top-tier and highly expensive vehicle, it is doubly (even triply!) annoying for the electronics to go on the fritz.
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mdsalemi

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Re: Consumer Reports 2023 least reliable Brand Mercedes
« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2022, 17:05:41 »
...instead, Chrysler management taught Mercedes how to shave pennies on component purchases and build a car down to a price...

Yeah, not so sure about that part. In the era in which our cars were built, outside of their home market MB was pretty much a luxury vehicle, exclusive to those who could afford it. Limited number of dealerships. I think their basic sedans started at about double what a comparable domestic model was priced at, and their offerings were limited. Today, it seems they want to be everything to everybody, offering everything from tiny Smart cars and A-Class up to OTR tractor trailers. But build to a price, yes. As they expanded their markets and wanted growth at all costs (and not limited to MB of course) they did things like price the C-Class at "under $30,000" with an MSRP of $29,999, and an available lease price of about $499/month. Of course it wasn't really possible to actually find a C-Class at that price, as that would have been the equivalent of a "stripper" which was unheard of. It was a price to just garner foot traffic into the dealerships.

[N.B. For those that want the full, real and complete story of the sordid Mercedes-Chrysler debacle, get yourself a copy of the book Taken for a Ride: How Daimler-Benz Drove Off With Chrysler Published in 2001 and authored by Bill Vlasic, a noted journalist for The New York Times, CNBC, The Economic Times, Albany Business Review, Sydney Morning Herald, The Business Journals, The Globe and Mail, Mint, Seattle Times, Star Tribune and more. Available used in many places including eBay and Amazon. Spoiler alert for those who may be offended: the book doesn't paint a flattering picture of either the DB Board and Management or Chrysler at the time. The former as rather ruthless, the latter as somewhat clueless. The funny thing is, I was physically right in the middle of the Detroit auto industry at the time, and no employees, no local media and nobody on the street--including the "court of public opinion" thought this would go well. The stupidity of the whole thing was best illustrated one day, when I was at a stoplight near my home, next to some young kid driving a rusty, nasty old Chrysler K-Car. He had ripped off the plastic crystal Pentastar hood ornament and somehow had fastened a three point star from some old Benz in its place. That said it all.]

...will the cars of today...even be repairable when the electronics of today are no longer manufactured?
What, Len? Do you mean in the future? The auto companies can't even manufacture cars today because they cannot get electronic components. There are ACRES of parking lots scattered around the assembly plants in Michigan where cars and trucks have been partially assembled (well mechanically at least) but they claim to be waiting on chips. Used to be about 6 weeks from car ordering to delivery, now in many cases it's a year. Many orders for some cars simply cancelled. I ordered a hybrid Ford Maverick, and that process was somewhat like trying to get tickets to a Taylor Swift concert in her upcoming tour. The little pickup had long been specified; but not priced. It was on the Ford website, but ordering wasn't possible. When they did open up orders for the 2023MY, they kept the order banks open for less than 48 hours before their production capacity was sold out. That was in September. Production was supposed to have started in late November, but that's anyone's guess. No idea when I'll be scheduled or if they'll simply cancel at some point.

More to your point, many of the electronics in our cars are not just "chips" per se, but specialized chips custom designed and produced. So, when the orders stop, the production stops. Aside from that these are put in assemblies with other chips and components, and once the manufacturer decides to stop that's it. Use the Bosch electronic ignition module for the later Pagodas as an example. When was the last time that was available?

Another good example: pianos. Yes, pianos. Take any good acoustic piano from any number of manufacturers made in the last 150 (one hundred and fifty) years. They are all completely rebuildable and restorable. Parts readily available. Technicians and restoration shops abound. The operative words are "acoustic pianos". Now remember that distinctive keyboard sound from the 1970s, popularized by groups such as The Doors, Steely Dan, and whoever Billy Preston was playing for? That was an electric piano, a/k/a a Rhodes or Fender-Rhodes. My old college roommate bought one new in 1978. In recent years, it stopped working. Turns out there are a just a very few places that can repair them in the USA any more and parts? Extremely challenging to find, specifically the electronic parts. So, it will be near impossible to get many electronic parts for today's cars in ten years. Fifty? Laughable.

As for quality, I have a friend who is a generalist independent mechanic in the Philadelphia area. He never really said much about today's German cars, but with a worried look on his face a couple of years back said, "Michael, please don't buy a Range Rover or Land Rover...don't EVER buy one of those..." Apparently they are very unreliable, hard and costly to repair.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2022, 17:13:25 by mdsalemi »
Michael Salemi
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Mike Hughes

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Re: Consumer Reports 2023 least reliable Brand Mercedes
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2022, 15:26:50 »
Hi Michael -

So many people in the automobile business have observed its workings from their particular vantage point.  Mine was from 40 years on the retail side. One of my clients for many years (1980's to the mid 2000's) was the president of a parts supplier to not just the "Big Three," but also many import brands with North American Assembly plants.  His company produced a wide variety of molded "soft" plastic components, from padded dash, door and seat trim panels to fender liners, and injection molded components, like manifolds, HVAC parts and plastic bits for electronics like switches, etc.  One time I asked him to show me what parts on the new Taurus he was buying for his wife had come from his company - it was a 10+ minute tour of the entire car.

He bought Ford products because FoMoCo, while always concerned about component cost, was also very quality conscious. To a lesser extent, so was GM.  Chrysler was an entirely different kettle of fish.  Like the other companies they would send his company parts specs, along with their price target for each component.  Unlike Ford or GM however, the Chrysler buyers would then come back after a few months of production and tell him that he would need to reduce the per component cost from say, $1.47 to $1.12, they come back again later and demand even further price concessions.  To do so would require changes in raw materials or wall thickness in order to be able to produce components without taking a loss.  Sometime after the Daimler/Chrysler merger, this same pattern became the norm for components supplied to the Mercedes-Benz Alabama plant.
 
So, from his standpoint as a parts supplier, Chrysler management must have been teaching Mercedes management how to shave pennies on component purchases.
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mdsalemi

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Re: Consumer Reports 2023 least reliable Brand Mercedes
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2022, 15:58:26 »
Yeah, not so much.

Don't take my word for it, even though so many people I knew lived through the "merger of equals". Really, anyone interested, get the book, and supplement that knowledge with online sources from Harvard Business Review, and much mainstream media. My own opinion isn't relevant, but the facts are, and there are plenty of them! The book is a great read for any gear head.

If anyone thinks that the Chrysler folks--management or engineers or even plant-level people--were going to teach Daimler about much of anything, they'd be mistaken. This was a well predicted culture clash of the worst kind. The Daimler folks were not about to be taught much of anything. If anyone also thought that Daimler would "tarnish the star" by shifting much of anything from Daimler to Chrysler they'd also be mistaken; about the only exception would be the Chrysler Crossfire, basically an SLK (replete with MB components and 3-point stars under hood) in American clothes. Just 76,000 units sold in 4 years, something that might hardly get approved today. Not only didn't Chrysler teach Mercedes how to cut costs, in fact, it was quite the opposite! The operating divisions of Chrysler tapped on Mercedes (not the other way around) to reduce the average cost per vehicle by $1,000, in an effort dubbed "Project Refocus" in 2006. There's plenty of information on that if you search. I don't think it worked very well, since soon after, 2007, Daimler sold Chrysler, and two years later went bankrupt.

Because the auto industry in general is all about volume, very small cost changes--pennies even--make a huge difference in overall costs. For that reason, they've ALL been conscious of supplier costs for ever. The auto companies will pound the suppliers down to the lowest price, then demand continued cost reductions each year. They make a mockery of the Japanese JIT or Kanban; the parking lots of domestic assembly plants are full of trailers full of supplies, as they've pushed the inventory cost to the supplier and call it "JIT". The supplier maintains the inventory at the plants.

I once sold electronic components to Tier 1 and Tier 2 suppliers, and it was kind of eye opening. As the components I was selling were costly hi-rel and mil-grade, not only were they too costly for the suppliers for automotive use, the level of certification that must be used was unbelievable. I had one successful conquest: one part I sold was used in a Bosch assembly (they would not reveal what the assembly was for or who). Few of my suppliers could or wanted to meet the demands of the automotive industry. Thankfully it's a past life.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2022, 21:24:19 by mdsalemi »
Michael Salemi
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teahead

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Re: Consumer Reports 2023 least reliable Brand Mercedes
« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2022, 16:20:16 »
Daimler PURPOSEDLY made cheap interiors on Chrysler products so as to not collide with MB products.

Just look how in 2006, all vehicles across the board at Chrysler had sh*t interiors.
1970 280SL auto, AC - aka "Edelweiss"

Rolf-Dieter ✝︎

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Re: Consumer Reports 2023 least reliable Brand Mercedes
« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2022, 00:57:31 »
Not much to say other than

"They just don't make them anymore like they used to!"

Dieter

PS. Enjoy your Pagoda while you can. I think Jeremy of Top Gear addresses some of the points in his test drive of a 280 SL in the south side of London and drive into the country side.

here -----> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bmKqjoXB78

« Last Edit: December 29, 2022, 01:38:24 by Rolf-Dieter »
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johnk

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Re: Consumer Reports 2023 least reliable Brand Mercedes
« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2022, 13:21:00 »
This news is a big UGH for me six months after I bought a 2022 GLS 450, and I keep my cars for ten plus years. At the time of ordering everything I read predicted the reliability at average, similar to other large SUV’s. I felt pretty much stuck with the Mercedes as a friend committed to order one for me for $1,000 under sticker where everything else was  way over sticker. My 2007 gl450 was still reliable and comfortable but the surface rust was embarrassing.

I guess I will just see how it goes and swap for a different used SUV if needed in a few years.
John Krystowski
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MikeSimon

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Re: Consumer Reports 2023 least reliable Brand Mercedes
« Reply #23 on: December 29, 2022, 14:21:22 »
  My 2007 gl450 was still reliable and comfortable but the surface rust was embarrassing.

When I was still working, we visited the Mercedes plant in Tuscaloosa and what we saw was the vehicles that rolled off the line had the worst paint finish we had ever seen in a factory new car.
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mdsalemi

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Re: Consumer Reports 2023 least reliable Brand Mercedes
« Reply #24 on: December 29, 2022, 15:32:58 »
When I was still working, we visited the Mercedes plant in Tuscaloosa and what we saw was the vehicles that rolled off the line had the worst paint finish we had ever seen in a factory new car.

NOT just Tuscaloosa. A few years ago, we had a new S-Class from the Detroit Press Fleet on display at the Concours of America at St. John's. This was a car with a $118,000 sticker.

Orange peel all over the paint. I'd expect this on a Kia Soul, not on a six figure plus Mercedes. But, unless you wanted to pay someone to rub it out, and block it properly, that's what you got.

I haven't seen a Bentley or Rolls up close. Hoping that would be better?
Michael Salemi
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