Fair Valuation of a 1971 280SL automatic

[dg930]

Hi All,

Forgive me for the big first post but I spent some time perusing your great forum today and this looks like a good place to ask my question.

I have a neighbor who's elderly mother has a 1971 280SL in her garage that hasn't run in over 20 years. They are going to sell the house and will want to sell the car soon as she cannot drive anymore.

Being lifelong car guys, the family invited my brother and I over today to take a look at it.  To gauge our interest in buying it as well as get some good faith guidance on valuation/selling it. While the two objectives might seem at odds, we were pretty transparent regarding the condition of the car and the balance between selling it to two trusted neighbors who will carefully restore their family heirloom or trying to maximize their profit on the rabid BAT open market.

With that said, I could use some help preparing a fair, quick, no hassle private sale offer. 

Details on the car:

The good:

- There is very little rust.  I found some in the trunk on the left side but it was moderate and didn't perforate the panel.  No rust at all in the floor pans, rockers, frame rails, pillars or chassis mounts from what I could tell.
- car appears mostly complete and unmolested.  Original factory A/C and Becker radio
- 80,000 indicated miles
- Chrome was probably an 8.  Some trim was cloudy but otherwise ok.
- Glass is perfect.
- Not an original owner car but it was cared for in its prime.

The bad:

- 20 years alone in a garage and the mice have destroyed the interior.  Piss and crap in every duct and on every soft and hard surface.  The car reeks inside. The interior needs to be completely replaced and every crevice cleaned.  Didn't take the hard top off and inspect the soft top but assume it is destroyed as well.
- car reportedly ran when parked but no way to verify condition of the engine/transmission.  Lots of oil leaks underneath.
- Paint is probably a 4.  Wrinkling and crows feet throughout.  Not sure if it had a bad respray sometime in its life.
- Not sure if this is a common issue but tried to move one of the HVAC wheels on the dash and it literally crumbled in my hand.

So I’m thinking the car needs a complete restoration.  Engine/transmission reseal at a minimum, fuel system clean and possible new tank, fuel injection pump rebuild, all new interior, brake system overhaul, coolant system overhaul, new top, all new weather/glass seals, bare metal respray.

Happy to answer any question you ask.  Any help formulating an offer would be appreciated.

Thanks!

[johnk]

 I am not surety you would make money having everything done that needs to be done unless you could do it all yourself but that is a huge amount of work. When you mention bare metal respray I assume your not planning on just doing the minimum to make it look good at an auction and dump it. I’ve seen many of those “lipstick on a pig” auction pagodas.

[dg930]

Hi John thanks.

The intent is to restore the car and enjoy it.  Not flip or profit on it.  All or most of the work will be done by us, including the paint.

[johnk]

Sorry I misread the part where you mentioned flipping on it on BAT. Sounds like a great project car for that. Others might know more than me but my guess is around $40k?

As a reference my car was also about 80k miles and rust appeared the same when I started.   
I did most everything myself other than having JA reassemble the short block for me and rebuilding the transmission and rear end. New interior, soft top, rebuild hard top. all new seals gaskets, weather stripping, refinish all parts and replace where necessary, complete rotisserie rebuild, refinish bottom of the car, new MB windshield, recrome rear bumper and a few parts  and I have almost $50k into it in addition to the original purchase. Of course I did it to keep and pass on to my son so I attempted to do it right.

[Cees Klumper]

From the sounds of it, I think $25K could be fair price, though on the high side.

[Vander]

$20-25k based off information provided

[MikeSimon]

I am going 30-40k. If you get it for 25k, it would be a good deal.

[rwmastel]

- Have you owned or restored a Mercedes of this era before?
- Of course, a link to 20+ photos of the body, under body, and engine bay would help people with pricing, and maybe help sleuth out if the car has 80,000 or 180,000 on it.
- Are there any service records at all?
- People here should be able to give estimates on costs of materials (DIY) and costs in general (using a restorer) for carpet sets, leather (or MB-Tex) sets, soft tops, engine rebuilds, fuel system rebuilds, etc.
- Have you tried to soak the cylinders/pistons and then a day later turn the engine over manually (socket on front of engine)?
- People here can suggest ideas on evaluating the engine.
- Perhaps you can get the current owner to order a Data Card from the classic center so you know exactly what was original on the car and what you would have to order to restore.

I also thought you were looking to maximize your profit and the rabid BAT market.

[mdsalemi]

Hagerty tracks such pricing. In their #47 price guide, Jan-Jun 2022, the 1971 280SL is listed between #1 at $198,000 and #4 at $44,700. Of course there may have been some minor price changes since last summer.

More importantly, these are #1 to #4 cars, and the "worst" of them, a #4, is a running, working driver.

For a car that hasn't run in 20 years, it takes it to Hagerty's #5 or #6 condition for which they don't list pricing on these models.

One would have to do a pretty extensive evaluation to ensure that nothing overtly serious is wrong--cracked block or head for example.

To me, the destroyed interior is probably a $10K price deduction. You did mention some of the chrome condition which sounds appropriate for its age, but is all the trim complete and present? Missing trim pieces can quickly add up in cost and slow down a restoration while you find them. How is the grill, grill star, grill surround? How do the doors, hood and trunk deck close?

I'd have to agree with Vander and Cees that ~20-25K is probably the right ballpark, but you sure have a lot of work ahead of you.

As a point of reference when I got my not-running 1969 back in 1999, and went about to find a restorer, almost all of them I spoke with at that time asked, "It hasn't been sitting long, has it?" Let that be a cautionary note.

[Vander]

A few costs.... longblock rebuild $11,650. Does not include labor to R & R or components

Seat set in leather  $2,202, in MB-TEX $1,321. Rubberized seat pads $1,756 for 4.
Multiloop carpet $1,274
That's just materials, then you have door panels, dash leather, wood, interior chrome, etc.

[dg930]

Thanks for all the replies so far.  Please keep them coming.

I edited the original post to be more clear about what our intentions are.  In essence, we explained that selling it to us in a private sale would probably net less profit then selling it on an open market like BAT, but that we are not flippers and intend to restore and enjoy the car.

[Vander]

Thanks for all the replies so far.  Please keep them coming.

I edited the original post to be more clear about what our intentions are.  In essence, we explained that selling it to us in a private sale would probably net less profit then selling it on an open market like BAT, but that we are not flippers and intend to restore and enjoy the car.

This Pagoda would get DESTROYED on BaT, BaT is not the market for this car. Not to mention it will take a HUGE effort and a couple of months wait. The family's best option is selling it to you.

Also it would have to be a NO RESERVE auction. Do they want to roll the dice and be put through the gauntlet?

[teahead]

Thinking a conservative restoration would be $100k, I would say $20-25k.  The lack of rust would need to be verified of course.

INterior:  $15-20k
Drivetrain rebuild:  $20-30k
Body repaint:  $25-40k
Misc:  $10k (chrome trim, etc.)

Plus a lot of your time getting things working.

[Lorsar]

Do you have any pictures you can share?  That may give us a better idea.

[lreppond]

Based on the information you’ve provided, an offer of $20-25k seems fair.  Whether or not you have the expertise to do most of the work, parts are still very expensive and the work time consuming.  I think Rob’s estimates are in the ballpark. Of course, once you start going down the rabbit hole more issues will likely surface. 

I hope you get it at a fair price. I’m always excited to see a forgotten w113 brought back to its former glory and enjoyed by a new generation of enthusiasts.

[Jack the Knife]

Here is what I've been paying for things:

- Carpet Kit (GAT) $829
- Seat pads (GAT) $1300
- "Old timer leather" interior (KHM) $4500
- Insulation that isn't made of guano (Resonix) $1600~
- New underdash panels, parcel panels, brake fluid reservoir, kick panels, washer pump, washer fluid reservoir (Authentic Classics) $1200~
- Transmission bushings kit (you will want to replace this, definitely!) (forget where I got it) idk like $120~
- Complete Cocomat Set (gotta be cool) (Cocomats.com) $800~
- Reproduction Euro headlights $1200
- New fancy radiator $600

Then there's all the maintenance items for you. I don't know what all new hoses, wiring, etc might cost. But that's an opportunity to do things well and right, say with braided hoses and all that. Who knows about the condition of your brakes. New tires of course, like good Vredesteins (no need to buy the overpriced and stupid Cokers) will cost you $875.75 for 5 185HR-14 Vredestein Sprint Classics delivered to you.

So there you go, I've paid 13k in largely maintenance and cosmetic items (I hate yellowed plastic). The car was fine and drove fine before. I paid about $49k for my car in November, and it had been repainted very recently.

Then there's the paint. If YOU disassemble it, assuming there's no body work or anything to do, it should be around $15k. If someone else does it, expect considerably more, closer to Teahead's estimate. Also a lot of this is location dependent.

Chrome one can spend a fortune on if you want to. But you said it is fine. I'd leave it alone for now.

Drivetrain rebuild is 10k for the motor from Metric or Noel's. Transmission, call it 5000-6000. Because monkeying around always happens, expect closer to Teahead's estimate of 20k. Also, a lot of this is dependent on you removing and draining and shipping things rather than paying a guy to do it.

In my mind, I picture this car being like this, but with crappy paint: https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1971-mercedes-benz-280sl-60/

I like 30k. I'd expect 60k+ in costs to have something you're proud of. Add on more if you want to do things like convert the transmission (assuming this is a manual, about $1500 for a Getrag kit and $800 for a 265/6 or you could be like me with a 265/5 for 3-4k), change the rear end (a couple grand depending), new springs and shocks (about $1500 or currently $2300 for a Mechatronik kit if you want to be fancier!), $1000-$1500 for non-boat anchor wheels, and... oh, I forgot, how is the wood on the inside? May need to refinish. Tack on more money. Teahead's $15k-$20k is looking better, especially if you are having someone else do all this. If you need to rebuild the rear axle and replace things like rubber boots, add another few k. Really good restored 280SLs go for between 100k-120k depending on the day, some of the options, pictures, color combo, etc.

Then there's your time, regardless if you have someone do everything.

I actually don't think this is an inappropriate car for BaT. Remember, it's "bring a trailer," not RM Sotheby's. If you're totally honest about everything it needs with 300+ pictures and aren't obfuscating anything, you can do just fine. It's people doing hinky stuff that get destroyed.

[MikeSimon]

I actually don't think this is an inappropriate car for BaT. Remember, it's "bring a trailer," not RM Sotheby's. 

Those days have long gone. You will hardly find a vehicle that you need to "Bring a Trailer" for. Ever since some professional sellers, e.g.: "911r", have discovered BaT, it has become the market place for stuff that commands higher than average prices. Vander is right. The "expert" gallery would "destroy" this car. But as prices are substantially higher than anywhere else, selling it on BaT - although this is not the intent of the OP - may bring 40-50k

[Jack the Knife]

Those days have long gone. You will hardly find a vehicle that you need to "Bring a Trailer" for. Ever since some professional sellers, e.g.: "911r", have discovered BaT, it has become the market place for stuff that commands higher than average prices. Vander is right. The "expert" gallery would "destroy" this car. But as prices are substantially higher than anywhere else, selling it on BaT - although this is not the intent of the OP - may bring 40-50k

I disagree. I am a BaT addict, browsing the site every evening. In fact, a comparable 250SL came up today. https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1967-mercedes-benz-250sl-48/ Very positive and realistic comments. Seller has photographed all the problems and is honest about everything. It's labeled as a project. They'll do fine. It's projects that are labeled as completed or at least #3/2 cars that are rightfully eviscerated. At the time of my posting, since the start of the month, 31 cars have been auctioned on BaT named as projects. Every single one of those cars has sold. All of them. Including that Pagoda, there are 5 cars for sale right now listed as projects, including this somewhat uncommon Hydrak-equipped ponton cabriolet: https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1957-mercedes-benz-220s-cabriolet-12/ Pretty strong bidding with a day to go given condition (and a notorious transmission) in my opinion!

But to your point, https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-bmw-3-0cs-40/ this is a great example of a project car that was DESTROYED by the commenters. Why? Because it was presented as something, and I quote, "refinished" and "refurbished," when someone really has to go in there and restart good portions of it. That won't fly on BaT. Actual experts will lavish in the pile-on.

[MikeSimon]

I don't think we are in disagreement. I said the car may sell (even at a premium). I only object to the comment that BaT is a site where you can typically sell junk cars that need a trailer. It is as fancy as "Sotheby's" or Barrett jackson.

[john.mancini]

Hello dg930,

The key to the valuation of this 71 280SL is the extent of the rust damage. I've often found that superficial rust can turn into a major issue once the paint is removed from the body. There's usually much more rust than first expected. W113's are great cars. Nowadays, full restorations can be very time consuming and expensive. Strap yourself in, it could be a very bumpy ride. Hopefully the rust is just superficial. Being a fellow MA resident, (now living in sunny Florida), if the car was driven in the winter, the rust will be an issue.

John

[dg930]

I really appreciate everyone’s input.  What a fantastic community.  I hope we get the opportunity to enjoy it like you do.

The primary goal of this thread was to establish a fair private sale offer. You have provided much, much more.

To answer some questions:

I don’t have a lot of pictures, I took one of the VIN plate and one of the build plate under the hood for my own research but quite frankly it’s not my car and I would be uncomfortable posting pictures right now.  If we are lucky enough to buy it, we will happily share.

Someone asked if we have owned a Mercedes of this vintage or restored a car like this.  Our family owned a 1975 450SL at one point but I never had the chance to work on it.

I’ve worked on all manner of stuff but the closest thing would be a 1978 and 1979 Porsche 930.  I’ve rebuilt both the engines and transmissions, suspension, brakes etc. etc.  My paint and bodywork skills are still developing but I’ve got plenty of expert friends when I feel like I’m over my head.

Thanks again.  I’ll let everyone know how it goes.

[Jack the Knife]

I’ve worked on all manner of stuff but the closest thing would be a 1978 and 1979 Porsche 930.  I’ve rebuilt both the engines and transmissions, suspension, brakes etc. etc.  My paint and bodywork stills are still developing but I’ve got plenty of expert friends when I feel like I’m over my head.

Way more experience than I had!! I hope you buy the car and it turns into a source of real enjoyment.

[lreppond]

With your past experience I hope you get this car at a good but fair price. Certainly you’ll have a lot of work ahead of you, but you’ll also have the opportunity with your skill set to do a first rate restoration at a relatively low price point.  I’d go into this project with eyes open knowing full well that all major systems will need attention. 

[johnk]

If you plan on a full complete restoration as many of us have this car could be as good as any. Might as well get a big discount off the price etc. because of the conditions of the car  if you are going to replace it all anyways.

All depends if the rust is close to what you say and the paint is not an old respray covering bad repair work.

[dg930]

Hi All,

Just wanted to post an update for those that might be interested.  We were able to purchase the car after many months of waiting and hoping it would come back to us.  We made an offer in the spring in the low $20K range but the owner sent it to a broker to try and maximize the profit.  I think he wanted $40K minimum.  Apparently, it wasn't attractive enough to the flippers and restorers at that price.  My understanding is that it went as low as $30K to them and it still wasn't profitable enough for anyone to pull the trigger.

There was lots of interest in the mid $20K range but after months of back and forth with the broker they wanted to be done with it, winter is almost here, and I'm sure there was some sentiment to see it come to us.   We bought it for $25K on Tuesday and brought it home.

I can't even begin to tell you how excited I am to work with my brother restoring this car.  It is one of the coolest cars our family has owned and a once in lifetime find. More to follow as we dig in but here are some pics.