Engine swap suggestions for a w113, keeping it into MB motor range

[lpeterssen]

Dear friends

I have a customer who has two w113 bodies and wanted to install on them engines coming from

1. Mercedes C36 AMG 1997 chassis w202
2. Mercedes C32 AMG 2002 chassis w203

After doing the obvious, which is to buy the wiring diagrams for those newer cars, have found that project is not feasible without spending thousand and thousands of dollar’s.

The main limitation is that Mercedes’ implemented from year 1991 the CANBUS technology on their passenger cars to reduce the complexity of the wiring harness on one side and also improve overall performance.

Car’s of this era which run on CANBUS have many small ECU’s that control so diverse things as for example one relay module (ECU) to control the radiator fan.

The instruments are all electronic and part of the CANBUS highway.

You have a relay module (ECU) to control the fuel pump, one for the ABS, another for the ESP (guess it’s the stability control) etc.

Not all the systems can be transplanted to the classic w113 without spending lots of money.

You can run the engine with a minimum set of independent ECU’s but then comes the fact that main engine ECU has to be reprogrammed or tricked to run on less ECU’s than on factory design.  When the main ECU does not receive the data form all the individual components, switches the engine to the LIMP mode, therefore making the engine swap useless.

People with expertise on ECU reprogramming are few in the world.

For all the mentioned above I suggested the customer to abort the initial approach.

Here I come to the MB W113 community to ask for suggestions on which engine swaps are desirable for the pagoda, to pass the word of wisdom to my customer.

I am open to any suggestion, but an LS SWAP.

Many thanks in advance for all your suggestions on the matter.

Best regards
Eng. Leonardo Peterssen

[Jack the Knife]

Not even one minute ago I posted this:
https://germancarsforsaleblog.com/1971-mercedes-benz-280sl-with-m104-swap/

I think the M104 is pretty much the best one can do. If you want to get very bold, then swap the entire chassis and drivetrain from a C32 AMG. John Olson did that on one of his coupes (or rather, his mechanic did) and he loves it.

Beyond that...
- M116
- M117
- M110 DOHC
- Turbocharged (or supercharged) M130 (this is being done by a guy in the unimog community, spoke w/ him a few weeks ago and he's nearly done)

My understanding with the V8 blocks is he would want one of the full aluminum blocks post-1978, ideally a high compression European-market motor. If one is doing this, I'd strongly consider modern fuel injection/fuel management. If he wants a manual transmission, there are adapters available now for the V8 engines as well as a 5-speed ZF available for the M110.

[MikeSimon]

The main issue with most V8s is the height. Very tight under the hood in the front.

[mdsalemi]

Leonardo,

ANY engine swap, regardless of which engine, which manufacturer etc. is going to be difficult and costly. If your client is afraid of "thousands of dollars" tell them to forget it. NOTHING like this is going to be cheap or easy, and even if its been done before there are all kinds of things that will run up the time and cost.

My friend Satish Tummala who runs Motorwerks Group in Commerce Michigan has done many engine swaps. A BMW M5 motor into a 3.0 CSi for example; a V12 ex SL600 into his own W126 coupe; the same engine into a second generation SLK.

All of these were exceedingly time consuming projects. In some cases, the ECU's are tied to the VIN at the factory, making use in another car or with other ECU systems problematic. These are problems with solutions, just not easy, quick or cheap. In some cases he was able to reprogram the ECUs in question. In other cases he had to order the ECU from Mercedes-Benz and they had to program in a new VIN prior to sending the part out. Nothing is easy! In the W126 a custom radiator needed to be made. Goodness knows what kind of modifications he needed to do on the SLK. I've seen all three of these project cars. They were done beautifully but they are for those with deep pockets and lots of time on their hands. A ready source of parts helps too; being in Venezuela makes things that much more complex.

Good luck to your clients!

[lpeterssen]

Dear Michael

Thanks for your comments.  The client is actually in UK.  He wanted me to do the custom harness.  After investigation, I told him that for those particular engines mentioned on the first post, forget about it, not possible with a limited budget.

Told him about the ECU, and that ECU was married to a particular VIN, and about all the difficulties related to not having all the CAN BUS independent modules installed on the classic car.

So I think he is now re evaluating the project that looked beautiful at the beginning, but now not so much.

It is better to come up with the truth from the beginning I think.

Thank you all for your nice comments and suggestions.

Best regards
L.Peterssen

[Jack the Knife]

Dear Michael

Thanks for your comments.  The client is actually in UK.  He wanted me to do the custom harness.  After investigation, I told him that for those particular engines mentioned on the first post, forget about it, not possible with a limited budget.

Told him about the ECU, and that ECU was married to a particular VIN, and about all the difficulties related to not having all the CAN BUS independent modules installed on the classic car.

So I think I he is now re evaluating the project that looked beautiful at the beginning, but now not so much.

It is better to come up with the truth from the beginning I think.

Thank you all for your nice comments and suggestions.

Best regards
L.Peterssen

He should strongly consider an electric conversion or one of the V8 conversions I mentioned. GGR here put such a V8 in his car and it is a very nice build.

[stickandrudderman]

I have a running 300TE 24V in my storage unit that was rotten before it got damaged in a storm....
Personally I think this would be a superb choice and I'd be happy to sell the whole car to your UK client so he'll have most of what he'll need to hand.

[lpeterssen]

Dear Collin

That was exactly the engine I suggested him to install, will send you per email his contact info so that you offer that engine coming from a 300TE 24V

Also remember to check on your storage for used w113 wiring harnesses.

Best regards
L.peterssen

[mdsalemi]

It is better to come up with the truth from the beginning I think.

Absolutely. It’s the right thing to do.

[doitwright]

All you need is $$$$. And lots of it. These guys have been doing MB restomods for years. Had one at PUB 2007 that Gernold brought.

https://www.mechatronik.de/en/verkauf/vehicles-on-offer/mb-w113-m-sl-500-red-en/

My understanding is they do not share their secrets.

[lpeterssen]

Yes definitely a lot of money…..

[Jack the Knife]

Leonardo,

A friend recently offered me a M102 Mercedes/Cosworth motor for a racecar that was never built. Something of this sort could be an intriguing option for your friend or for anyone. Good horsepower, small, lighter.. wonder how it could sit there in the SL, perhaps it would be closer to the midpoint of the car and lower, might make the car truly mid-engined. I have lately been involved in the W463 world and an acquaintance put one such engine in a SWB W460, which was dreadful owing to the power band of such a motor and the approx 4000lb weight of the 460. But the motor I have in hand makes around 200bhp, which would be great in our cars.

[lpeterssen]

Dear Jack

Thank you but the customer who wanted to do this conversion is in UK so I see that it will be somehow difficult.  Nevertheless I have another customer here iN USA looking to make an engine swap on his w113-230SL.

Please send me your contact data per DM or email to have more details on that engine.

Best regards
LP

[rwmastel]

A friend recently offered me a M102 Mercedes/Cosworth motor for a racecar that was never built.

Is that a motor that started as a M102.983 (190E-16v) and got modified beyond stock?  Or, maybe the less common (in USA) 2.5 16v?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_M102_engine

I've never tried anything like an engine transplant, but these 16v M102's sound like a sensible option!

[roberhofer]

https://www.kwiekclassics.com

He focuses on the M113 NA Engine with the 722 5G Tronic transmission. Works well on the W108 (he has done a few).
Talked with Matt (Owner) on the phone and he thinks that it should fit into the Pagode as well.
All-in probably between $60-70k USD. This includes a overhauled M113 engine and transmission. He thinks that with the 5G Tronic it's possible to retain the Pagode gear lever. There are tools to retain the original gauge cluster as well. So unless you open the engine bay (or start the engine) you will not know the difference.

Good example video with him: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfYRKsEuNGY

[Cees Klumper]

As far as I know, there are companies that offer new ECUs that can be programmed to just about any engine, based on the original ECU. After all, every combustion engine works the same: it needs air/fuel mixture, timing, spark. The characteristics for these variable parameters can be obtained from the original ECU then programmed into the new one, using as many sensors as needed/decided. See here for example:

https://linkecu.com/

A Youtuber in Australia that I follow and support, Home Built by Jeff, uses this company to supply him with ECUs to for example put a modern Ferrari V8 engine into a sixties Alfa Romeo GTV:

https://youtube.com/@HomeBuiltByJeff?si=DQJe-n2cGQMwPuKL

[russelljones48]

This post seems to have petered off a bit but I read through it and can't seem to help myself, so i'm gonna add to the stream.  What first struck me was that I don't know what the goals are for the swap?  Does the owner simply want to mate his 2 113's with the 2 engines he has stored in his garage?  Or does he have specific goals like better performance or having a fully modern car in a Pagoda skin?  The car/story that's posted of the blue 113 is certainly a beautiful car with much more modern running gear and amenities but the "have it professionally built" cost of a conversion like that would certainly be considerably more than what's mentioned if it included body/paint/interior as well as running gear and drivetrain - well into 6 figures. 
But having done a couple of conversions and swaps which includes some odd balls, the comment that "an engine is an engine" and that aftermarket ECUs are available for almost any combo dovetail with my experience and seem to me would suffice for installing one or the other of the engines mentioned if they fit well.  The required sensors and outputs like EFI injectors and timing typically require a harness of about 100 wires coming in and out of an aftermarket ECU.   It would be a simpler swap with a manual transmission and "drive by wire" might complicate matters but IMHO there's no need install a full modern Mercedes specific CANBUS architecture and the commensurate wiring in order to make those swaps. 

[mdsalemi]

My former mechanical/body shop--Motorwerks Group in Commerce Michigan, has done a number of engine swaps. All of them are very complex even for the highly skilled.

One of them was installing a V12 from an SL600 into a first generation SLK. He also did the same, earlier, into his own W126 coupe. These require a lot of engine and car electronic work to get it all to function properly. Some ECUs are permanently coded to a specific VIN and must be replaced, and ordered with a new VIN. Others can be field-reprogrammed.  Not a job for a casual mechanic, and even a challenge for those with the access to the needed things to get it all fit properly AND working.

They also put a later M5 engine into and older BMW 3.0 CSi.

Takes a LOT of time and money.

[russelljones48]

I'm sure what you say is true but for most or many engines up to and including the early OO's an aftermarket ECU (which does not have manufacturer specific coding can be used .  As said above an ICE is an ICE...  For some retaining the stock ECU may be a priority but most engines can be set up with a few basic sensors/controls and will run well..  Variable valve timing can make things more complex but can even be accomodated or (gasp) eliminated..   EFI itself could even be eliminated and swapped for a good carb system..  It's hard to make appropriate suggestions without knowing what the goals/motivations are for that particular owner/customer are.  However, if I can do it with some help these kind of "swaps" aren't OO reach for an "average" enthusiast/mechanic. 

[mdsalemi]

Goals and motivation for any of these "R&D" changes are simple.

They want the car to "go faster" since the HP of any of our engines doesn't appear to be enough.
They want the car to "handle better" since the handling isn't that great.

The problem is the car is not, and never was a sports car. It doesn't have sports car handling, it has an archaic swing axle suspension borrowed from a 1950s sedan.

If one wants sports car acceleration and handling, the easier solution is to get a sports car. The Pagoda isn't that. Just a very nice boulevard cruiser and roadster for those without a top, or top down.

Doing an engine swap into a Pagoda isn't as easy as some might imagine, particularly if you put the "must be Mercedes" restriction.

There was an article in The Star a few years back about a small block Ford V8 being put in a Pagoda. May have been a 289 or 302, don't remember. The guy who did this had the audacity to get custom valve covers engraved with "Mercedes" on them. Oy vey. I don't know much about the car or how much faster it ever was...

...but it was an engine swap!

I mentioned it before, but dealing with American engines in American cars is not the same as this situation. There is a tremendous amount of information on American engines, their rebuilding, and their installation in other cars. You’ll find dozens upon dozens of books on the matter at Amazon. Also there are many parts suppliers in the USA that sourcing for such a task is not a problem. This is absolutely not the case with our Mercedes-Benz. No books on the matter and parts are not easy to come by. But nobody has to believe me…just try that engine swap into a Pagoda and let us know how it works out.

[roberhofer]

I think the bigger argument for an engine swap (or even going electric) is to have something that is:
- reliable
- repairable

It is getting increasingly difficult to maintain our cars. If you need expertise then it's either already retired or about to.
I am now on my 3'rd mechanic as the prior 2 are in retirement. My current guy should have been retired several years ago, but he enjoys coming to the shop.
Specialist work is increasingly hard:
- Gus Pfister (Pacific Fuel Injection) is about to retire (or might have already, I got a pump done by him and chatted with him ~9 months ago).
- Metric Motors will have changes coming as some staff will retire in the next months

Even if you can wrench on your own, parts availability is a pain:
- I needed a oil pickup for the engine. None available from Mercedes. I got the last one from Metric Motors for a very premium price (it was their last one, and without it nothing would work).
- I needed a refreshed torque converter. Took me several months to source one. One supplier in the Bay Area has a new old stock steel one and they will sell it to "to an originalist who is willing to pay crazy prices".

The 60's Mercedes engines were never good in hot weather. In many states 80+F is becoming the norm for daytime temps. Inland CA, Texas etc its much more. You can hit traffic on your way, with you then being stressed with overheating. Driving without AC is not an option, driving with AC puts undue stress on the engines.

You can be all original and have a pretty setup and put it into your garage and admire it. But if you want to drive it (and not take it for a sunday "walk", but actually drive it) then the technology is just too brittle and hard to maintain. It's a 60 year old design and I see nothing wrong with something more modern, more reliable, more easy to maintain and getting parts for it.

And the younger kids are totally into engine swaps. Just look up the "M103 engine swap" or "M103 turbo" on YouTube and you will be amazed. Or the M113 swap that Kwiek Classics is doing. I am considering it, it's just a financial outlay that I want to avoid at the moment.

[Jack the Knife]

Is that a motor that started as a M102.983 (190E-16v) and got modified beyond stock?  Or, maybe the less common (in USA) 2.5 16v?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_M102_engine

I've never tried anything like an engine transplant, but these 16v M102's sound like a sensible option!

That's right -- and they're relatively inexpensive, offer just enough hp free up room, etc. while keeping the spirit of the vehicle. I've had my eye on a 2.3L Cosworth for some time. 185bhp or whatever it is I believe is an excellent figure for our cars. Not too much, not too little, not too big and muscly. It's like if MBZ had a solid competitor to the BMW M10 motor back then. Or, for that matter, if Paul Bracq's BMW version of an SL he designed had actually been built -- it certainly would've been powered by an M10 and there'd be a host of options to customize it to one's liking.

I have my car because it looks cool and makes me feel cool. We all have our line in the sand when it comes to anachronistic technology. Some of it adds spirit, nostalgia, a "vibe," whatever. Some of it is just really a bear or even hazardous, and prevents one from meaningfully enjoying one's vehicle. MBZ themselves had considered bigger and better motors for the 113 before just moving onto the 107 -- like a 3L of some sort for the "300SLX".

You can be all original and have a pretty setup and put it into your garage and admire it. But if you want to drive it (and not take it for a sunday "walk", but actually drive it) then the technology is just too brittle and hard to maintain. It's a 60 year old design and I see nothing wrong with something more modern, more reliable, more easy to maintain and getting parts for it.

And the younger kids are totally into engine swaps. Just look up the "M103 engine swap" or "M103 turbo" on YouTube and you will be amazed. Or the M113 swap that Kwiek Classics is doing. I am considering it, it's just a financial outlay that I want to avoid at the moment.

Fully in agreement. For that matter, it would be super if someone could figure out an easy EFI retrofit on these motors just to take away another obstruction to one's enjoyment. I really don't care to pay out the nose every so often just to keep a backlogged MFI rebuilder in business.

[roberhofer]

Fully in agreement. For that matter, it would be super if someone could figure out an easy EFI retrofit on these motors just to take away another obstruction to one's enjoyment. I really don't care to pay out the nose every so often just to keep a backlogged MFI rebuilder in business.

It's possible and has been done:
https://www.temotorsport.de/post/m103-efi-kit
https://www.temotorsport.de/post/m104-efi-kit
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL-W1I4qhNK5MZ37oqWeePm1ntbMa8fVne

[Jack the Knife]

It's possible and has been done:
https://www.temotorsport.de/post/m103-efi-kit
https://www.temotorsport.de/post/m104-efi-kit
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL-W1I4qhNK5MZ37oqWeePm1ntbMa8fVne

Oh totally, no problem with that range of motor -- those engines came with EFI anyway -- I was referring to the M127/129/130 range in our cars. I've seen someone do it with a carbed M180, but not with any of our engines.

[JamesL]

Achim (114115) was telling me of someone who had transplanted a CLK500 engine (and loom etc) into a Pagoda, and of someone using the 2.3-16 ( or as we know it in the Uk the Mercedes Cosworth engine)