Overdrive?

[Merc_Girl]

I know, a lot of folk will not like the suggestion.

anyhow, is anyone aware of / perhaps have done themselves, an overdrive unit fitted to a pagoda with the 4 speed gearbox?
Quotes for obtaining and then fitting 5 or 6 speed gearboxes seem rather a lot. Thinking this may be a cheaper option if it has/can be done

With thanks in advance, as always 😁

[WRe]

https://www.sl113.org/wiki/TransmissionClutch/Overdrive

[Merc_Girl]

Thank you 😁

[Jack the Knife]

Thank you 😁

I have my Getrag conversion kit sitting on the dining room table. All-in, you should expect 2k for an overdrive unit + kit, if you intend to swap the entire transmission (the early 230 had a very aggressive first gear, so you might consider this desirable anyway just for that). 265/6 Getrag goes for around $600 or so (BMW transmission, NOT Opel!) and the conversion kit from Germany makes up the difference.

[Merc_Girl]

I have my Getrag conversion kit sitting on the dining room table. All-in, you should expect 2k for an overdrive unit + kit, if you intend to swap the entire transmission (the early 230 had a very aggressive first gear, so you might consider this desirable anyway just for that). 265/6 Getrag goes for around $600 or so (BMW transmission, NOT Opel!) and the conversion kit from Germany makes up the difference.

Thank you! You are correct about 1st gear, she’s being a right pain to get some times
Thanks for info on gearbox, I would be worried about purchasing the right items though 😔. Could be an expensive mistake if I get it wrong

[mdsalemi]

I know, a lot of folk will not like the suggestion.

anyhow, is anyone aware of / perhaps have done themselves, an overdrive unit fitted to a pagoda with the 4 speed gearbox?
Quotes for obtaining and then fitting 5 or 6 speed gearboxes seem rather a lot. Thinking this may be a cheaper option if it has/can be done

With thanks in advance, as always 😁

Note this thread should probably be in "research and development" not in Drive Train, as either the overdrive or the gearbox change isn't standard.

There are a few members here who have changed out their transmission/gearbox for a 5 speed or 6 speed. Either the Tremec or the Getrag. It's all been done before, but nothing like this is super-easy.

As was pointed out earlier, the overdrive was also done.

If you choose to pursue the overdrive unit (as opposed to an overdrive transmission) as noted, please be aware you may be trying to source an overdrive unit that is even older than your car. How well does it work? Does it need a rebuild? Are parts even available for it? These are important questions. Personally I'd never source something like this, of this age, and install it without an intelligent rebuild on it. There's too much labor involved, and it doesn't matter if its your labor or that you buy out.

Tom Forsyth who did the overdrive addition, isn't a member here any longer. No idea what happened to him or his car. Maybe one of our Canadian members know.

Those who have done these overdrive and transmission changes have done so because they use the cars frequently, and the high RPM is a bit unnerving at highway speed.

[rwmastel]

Can't remember his name, but didn't the guy from Florida who was a sports video guy put an overdrive unit on his driveshaft?  He and his wife were both videographers and they came to a PUB together in their Pagoda.  At least that's my recollection.  Maybe Ray is his name?

[cfm65@me.com]

GETRAG

[Garry]

Ray Hays, a Pagoda Group Past President, from Florida, has a Tremac 5 speed in his Pagoda that he swears by.

[Berggreen]

GETRAG

I agree, the Getrag 265/6 overdrive transmission is the best choice for our Pagodas. Remember the standard 4-speed gearbox is also a Getrag box, and compared to the optional ZF 5-speed gearbox, then 265/6 is a much better gearbox of a newer design.

Wolfgang in Germany are selling the retrofit kits for the Getrag 265/6, and I just bought one, including a revised and shortened front propeller shaft, which fits the 265/6 and the rest of the propeller shaft. He also supplies a very detailed installation description where all the parts included in the kit are explained. The installation description is supplied in both English and German on a DVD. However, here is his commercial description of the kit (in German): https://w113.eu/geschlossen/Optimierungen/5%20Gang%20Getriebe%20Mercedes%20Pagode%20W113.htm

I also just purchased a nice seemingly nice condition Getrag 265/6 for 1200 EUR incl. shipping from Germany to Denmark, which I will install soon using the kit from Wolfgang.

His kit can be bought from his web-shop: https://w113.eu/Shop/Roadbook%20Shop.html

Hope this helps.

/Christian

[Merc_Girl]

Thanks Christian

That’s very interesting. I bet you are one of those clever folk who can fit the gearbox yourself 😁

So if I google a Getrag 265/6, then that’s all I need to look for? Or do I need to also be specific and include BMW?

Thank you 😁

[Jack the Knife]

Thanks Christian

That’s very interesting. I bet you are one of those clever folk who can fit the gearbox yourself 😁

So if I google a Getrag 265/6, then that’s all I need to look for? Or do I need to also be specific and include BMW?

Thank you 😁

You'll want the BMW one with a mechanical speedometer drive. The easiest way to do this probably is to go over to the E9 Coupe forum and post a wanted ad, also specify you're in the UK.

[Berggreen]

Thanks Christian

That’s very interesting. I bet you are one of those clever folk who can fit the gearbox yourself 😁

So if I google a Getrag 265/6, then that’s all I need to look for? Or do I need to also be specific and include BMW?

Thank you 😁

You are very welcome! 😀

Actually, I prefer not to do the heavy and dirty stuff (like changing a gearbox) on my cars, which I leave to my mechanic. But the fine tuning and thing needing special knowledge and expertise, I much enjoy doing myself. 😉

Yes, you need a 265/6 from a BMW. The 265 was also used in Opels and Jaguars. But there it has another design of the rear end of the gearbox which does not match Wolfgang’s kit. Furthermore, you need a 265/6 from a BMW with mechanical speedometer, so that the 265/6 has a mechanical speedometer drive. The 265/6 was used all the way up through the 80’es, but the mechanical speedometer drive was removed in the 80’es when they went over to electrically driven speedometers. You can retrofit a mechanical speedometer drive into a late 265/6 without one, and Wolfgang also sells a kit for as well as a drive. But it is easier just to find a 265/6 which already has one, so that you don’t have to open the gearbox and install one.

For Googling one, you should just Google Getrag 265, and then watch out for both the mechanical speedometer drive, and also that it indeed is a 265/6 with 1. gear upwards. There is also a 265 with first gear downwards, which is the 265/5 and you don’t want that one. You are welcome to send me candidates you have found in a personal message. Then I will be happy to check them out and let you which of them are 265/6s and if they have mechanical speedometer drives. 😀

The 265/6 is often in German called a “Schongang getriebe”, whereas the 265/5 is called a “dogleg” or “sport” gearbox.

When I researched the 265/6, I also traced down the gear exchange rates for the different retrofit gearbox candidates for the w113 and I just want to share this here: (parts of it is from an earlier thread on the Forum and I expanded this table)

Gear      Orig.4      ZF5     G265/6    S&SG
1           4,05        3,83     3,38        4,002           
2           2,23        2,20     2,20        2,108           
3           1,40        1,40     1,40        1,380
4           1,00        1,00     1,00        1,000
5 +                      0,81     0,81        0,780
6 ++                                              0,645

What is worth noticing is that the 265/6 and the originally optional ZF5 have almost identical exchange ratios, except for the first gear, where the 265/6 is lower geared and thus runs less RPMs, which I see as a great advantage for normal driving conditions, where the first gear especially with the original 4-speed box is almost useless unless you have a very low geared rear axle.

The S&SG is a 6-speed gearbox alternative which is also offered on the market from several suppliers as a retrofit kit. However, I personally prefer to stay as close to original/optional as possible, with the 265/6 being a very close match to the ZF5.

Hope this helps in your quest for a 5th year in your 230SL! Good luck! 👍😀

Cheers,

Christian 😎

[AdelaidePagoda]

If you are going to go for the Fifth gear, then why not just go all the way and add the Sixth? Here is a nice example, with the (scary) costs attached:

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1969-mercedes-benz-280sl-101/

[mdsalemi]

For what my opinion is worth, if I had a standard transmission car (I do not) and if I wanted to drive it a lot, and at long distances on the highways (I do not) I would opt for that Getrag 265/6.

Why? Well, based on what I'm reading and other's experiences:

There were probably more of those transmissions made than the entire run of Pagodas; oh yes, different cases for different cars, that speedo thing, etc. but with many internals identical or nearly so.
There are a vast number of transmission rebuild shops familar with that unit and thus its rebuilding and servicing.

Those two items mean you can probably source a donor unit at a reasonable price; while reasonable is different to many people, compare to a stock 4-speed OEM unit ex-Pagoda; if it is less or equal, it's reasonable. Then, you can find someone to bench test it and rebuild if necessary, assuring you that you start with one that will go in (with the proper kit) and serve you well without issue.

The worst thing in the world is to go through all kinds of hoops and gyrations and cost and labor to install something that doesn't work properly. They you have to do it all over again!

[cfm65@me.com]

Merc girl,
Personally, I would not go for a 6 speed as I believe it might be an overkill and expensive.
The 265/6 Getrag is perfect, the first 4 gears are very similar to the Pagoda and from about 100 kliks you select nr 5. These cars are not very powerful and therefor the Getrag 265/6 suites it well. Beware, the Getrag 265/5 is a close ratio transmission with a dog leg shift. It has the normal H where nr one position is reverse. Straight down, the normal nr 2 position is first ( the next manoeuvre from 1 to 2, is the infamous “dogleg”) Third is in the nr 4 position, etc. I had one in one of my E Type Jaguars and hated it.
OK, back to the 265/6, the talk on the street is that this transmission could handle up to 600 horses and hot rodding abuse. However, spares are rare.
I am not engineering talented, but I made up and fitted my own kit and just lovit. My Pagoda was an automatic. I have a spare and  considering fitting in my current E Type.
Good news, I believe  Mark Turnbull, in the UK, makes, builds and fits these kits and he might also be able to source a 265/6 Getrag for you.  Google is your friend.
Cheers
Chris
Cape Town

[teahead]

The 6-speed has a horrible 1-2 severe ratio drop.  1st gear is WAY too low IMHO, unless you have a 3.27 rear end.

265/6 is the way to go.

Not too difficult to get the parts for a mechanical speedo to convert if the 265/6 you find does not have that.


I wish there was an add-on OD unit to add onto my wife's automatic.  Akin to a "Gear Vendors" unit, but no way will that fit.

A 722.6 transmission would be awesome, but would need some kind of adapter plate and some way for it to fit the tunnel.

[Berggreen]

If someone is interested, then there is currently a Getrag 265/6 with mechanical speedo drive for sale on EBay Kleinanzeigen in Germany:

https://www.ebay-kleinanzeigen.de/s-anzeige/bmw-opel-mercedes-265-getriebe-getrag-5-gang-mit-tachowelle-m30/2378395624-223-1952?utm_source=copyToPasteboard&utm_campaign=socialbuttons&utm_medium=social&utm_content=app_ios

The donor car is a 1. series BMW E24 - thus a 6-series BMW from the 1970’es.

It’s the same seller I bought my 265/6 from, and which I show pictures of above in my earlier post in this thread. I have not installed mine yet, but it looks fine and the seller sent it without any difficulties. He also ships outside Germany, as I live in Denmark.

It is getting more difficult to find the 265/6 with mechanical speedo drive. So this is a good opportunity to get one.

Cheers,

Christian

[lagolag]

I did consider the overdrive route as well from the beginning, bought a over drive unit but realized that it would be a big job so I changed to the Getrag route. Bought a Getrag 265-6 from a BMW M535 (e12) and bought the installation kit from the German guy togheter with a bellhousing to have a complete gearbox set up, have done a new driveshaft that is balanced and ready to have a clean swap so the car can be built back to original with it original parts. The plan was to have the replacement done over the winter but other things took the time so the plan is to do it the coming winter.

[Merc_Girl]

With thanks to everyone, especially Christian

The knowledge and the willingness of members to help out continues to astonish me!

You are all fab

So it seems g hanging the gearbox rather than fitting an overdrive seems the better option. Prices seem to be a lot more reasonable than I had been led to believe, which is comforting to know.

Thank you all ❤️❤️

[degbad]

25mpg US gallons....unbelievable.
Recently installed a Tremec T5 in my 250SL. 4.08 diff and 0.63 fifth gear, I get 80mph at approx 2700rpm, delicious!

I did a 250mile run (60-70mph)used less than 40litres of regular gas. Fill to the top drive 250miles and fillup to the very top. I did this twice with same result, this is about 25mpg US gallons which is extraordinary cf other owners. I did the T5 conversion for comfortable cruising, the car is not usable with a 4 speed IMHO. Better mileage is a bonus, hence this post. The joy of 70mph at ~2400rpm is bliss.

The other mods I made were
1) 123 ignition distributor which has a vacuum advance option and timing curve tuning, excellent product.
2)I scrapped the warm up device and installed a manual mixture control plate so I get the fuel air mixture I want without shims and temperature variability.
3)I put a manual switch on the starting valve operated from the cockpit as a choke.

I wanted to share this after 20 years of sorting I have a car I can enjoy!

I have vibrations at 80mph and above, any help here with wheel balance propshaft and rear axle comments welcome

Derek

MB 250SL
1968 Jaguar XKE OTS
2003 Jaguar XK8
1937 Jaguar SS100
1959 MGA (sold)

[gordon]

I've got a couple of rebuilt Getrag 5 speeds, with mechanical speedometer drives. I can post for sale if needed £1900 plus delivery from Staffordshire,UK