Need transmission advice/help - was loud clatter

[Ed Riefstahl]

Hello everyone,
I was able to narrow the loud noise to the transmission with help from my wife and a stethoscope, once I felt more comfortable letting the car run while I went under the car.

I dropped the transmission oil pan this morning. There was absolutely no foreign material in the pan and very little residue. The fluid looks nice and red too. I think it's been about 20k since last change.

Looking back on last summer and the last couple times we drove the car just before my wife's cancer diagnosis and right before the catastrophic failure of the flex joint in the differential. We were 1/2 mile from our house, turning onto the side road and the car down shifted with a real bang. My wife and I both said, what was that?

The car seemed to shift normal at the next stop and the rest of the way home. However a week or so later we took our drive along the lake and stopped at a red light. We started to go and the car made a loud bang and we coasted off the road with differential failure.

Does anyone have experience with the early 113 transmission / torque converter. I do have a spare transmission from a 1970 280S, but am told it's different and it's untested.

Not sure what to do from here and looking for some advice.

Thanks in advance,
Ed Riefstahl
Erie, PA

[rwmastel]

Ed,

Do you feel that you know with 100% certainty what component is causing the noise when you start your engine?  I know you said you and/or your wife have been using the stethoscope, which is great.  But we all know sound and vibrations can be transmitted around, making it difficult.  Have you had any friends or family try to help spot the noise?

Also, I recommend that you reply to your existing thread instead of starting new ones.  You a good history going, but then started a new thread a day or two ago, and now this new one.  If you can keep it all in one discussion, then people can see the history of what you have done and give more meaningful assistance.

https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=36573
https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=36449

[Ed Riefstahl]

Hi Rodd,
All very good advice. Sorry, new to this Blog and still learning.

The reason for the new thread was because I've determined the noise to be coming from the bell housing of the transmission or the front of the transmission. So, in my thinking it's now a transmission issue. It took some doing to trace it down as mentioned above, but was finally able to do that once I was comfortable running the engine, not just starting it and shutting it off.

It is a very loud clatter, like metal hitting metal, but sometimes quits for a little bit and even changes some with rpm change.

To answer your question, yes I have determined it is not in the engine, injector pump or any component on the engine as originally thought, because the sound it transmitting to the engine compartment from the transmission and/or tunnel area.

Thanks for your comments, greatly appreciated.

Ed Riefstahl

[Ed Riefstahl]

Hello again,

Bud's Benz offers a rebuilt transmission including 4 bolt aluminum torque converter for $5000.00 with my old exchange.

Does anyone have any experience with Bud's or their re-manufactured products?
It's a lot of money, but on the other hand I'm not sure I want to mess with used or attempting to have mine rebuilt.

We've put over 65,000 miles on our SL, coast to coast, main to Florida in 21 years with only basic maintenance since doing a top end job and a cosmetic restoration.

In the last year or so we have now replaced complete cooling system, complete braking system (front to back), charging system & battery, refurbished differential, replaced U-joints, replaced all suspension bushings & spring bushings, replaced motor mounts, shocks, sway bar linkage & packed wheel bearings with new seals, (front and back). Plus adjusted the valves. Also replaced points with electronic a few years ago.

I'm thinking it's time to bite the bullet for a rebuilt transmission, so we can continue touring the country with Ms Magoo.

Any advice from you folks? I am not aware of any other source for a rebuilt transmission, especially an early W113 with 4 bolt aluminum converter.

Ed Riefstahl
Erie, PA

1966 230SL (Ms Magoo)
1970 280S (Miss Daisy)
1989 300SE (Majestic)
1999 BMW Z3 5 speed
1991 BMW 318I 5 Speed
1997 Toyota Paseo Convertible - Red 5 speed (have you ever seen one?)
1997 Ford Ranger step side (Mater)
2023 Mazda CX 5

[Vander]

Do NOT "exchange" your transmission if it is original to your car. It is only original once. Rodd/ RWMastel in another thread said Sun Valley in California recently quoted $2,350 to rebuild his 230SL automatic transmission.  And Sun Valley is the leader in rebuilt MB transmissions.

Also I noticed you don't want to mess with having yours rebuilt. Why not? That is all Buds Benz is going to sell you. A rebuilt transmission, and rebuilt by what company?

[Cees Klumper]

You may find that when you remove the transmission, something obvious is causing this erratic noise, and that it is not inside the transmission, but something simpler. Since you will have to remove it either way, if I were in your position I would remove it and see if it is indeed something simple, first.

[Ed Riefstahl]

Thanks Vander, I appreciate the info. regarding Sun Valley and suggestions regarding original trans. I'll call them tomorrow.

The reason for the negative rebuild comments is because of a very bad experience years ago regarding a MB transmission rebuild. I swore I'd never do it again and instead install a rebuild and when satisfied, then send my old one back.

And yes, whatever way I go from here is likely a rebuild and I don't feel qualified to do it myself. Unless as Cees mentioned, I get the transmission out and discover something very obvious or something other than the transmission itself. At this point I don't see how it could be anything other than the converter or something internal in the transmission and don't see any way to diagnose either of those once they are removed from the car.

What really puzzles me is the extremely harsh down shift that took place, once a couple days before and again right at the time of the differential failure. Both times under acceleration, but not hard. It sure makes me nervous about driving the car again with my existing transmission and the possibility of destroying another differential. I'm not implying that I would still have that concern if the transmission was properly rebuilt.

Does anyone have an idea what could make the transmission shift that harshly?

Thanks again for the comments and suggestions. I plan to make some calls tomorrow.

Ed Riefstahl

[Benz Dr.]

I had a 280SL once with a broken flex plate and it made a horrible noise at idle but it went away once at road speed. Loose or broken flex plates make a LOT of noise.

[rwmastel]

Dan,
What's a flex plate?  That body color painted plate bolted to the underbody behind (rear of) the transmission pan?

Ed,
Yes, I called Sun Valley last week.
https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=36518.msg267422#msg267422

Diversion:  For people into "numbers matching cars", you can see my production number (or is it called build number?) at the rear of the plate.  I'm not sure if this was stamped there on all cars through end of 280SL production or not.

[Benz Dr.]

Dan,
What's a flex plate?  That body color painted plate bolted to the underbody behind (rear of) the transmission pan?

Ed,
Yes, I called Sun Valley last week.
https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=36518.msg267422#msg267422

Diversion:  For people into "numbers matching cars", you can see my production number (or is it called build number?) at the rear of the plate.  I'm not sure if this was stamped there on all cars through end of 280SL production or not.

Flex plate goes between the flywheel and the torque converter.

Matching numbers means less on our cars than those that can be cloned or are worth mega millions.

[BobH]

Hello Ed, if you search "flex plate" it throws up quite a few posts with similar symptoms to your problem, i found this one, and there are several others describing clattering noises, worth a look before you go too much further

Good luck

https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=26031.msg187781#msg187781

[Ed Riefstahl]

Good morning folks,
My first thought after tracking it to the transmission was the flex plate. I did remove both cover plates and also the 4 torque converter bolts and slid the converter back from the flex plate as far as possible (about 1/4 inch).

I rotated the engine with a large ratchet on the crank and as best as I could looked up in at the flex plate with a very good light. I also pried it with a screw driver to see if I could detect any movement or cracks. It sure looks intact and no cracks to me at this point without removing the transmission.

Again, what puzzles both my wife and me is the extremely harsh shift that took place a couple times just prior to the catastrophic failure of the differential. I am reasonably certain now that this very harsh shift is what likely caused the sudden failure of the differential and also the reason the transmission makes this terrible noise now after putting the differential back in the car considering I haven't even driven the car yet.

Not sure if the torque converter could cause this harsh shift, but pretty certain it wasn't the flex plate now that I've examined it. BTW, I am learning that the early aluminum torque converters are actually a type of hydraulic clutch and different from the later 60's / early 70's converters. Are these prone to failure?

I'm not as concerned about the transmission being original to the car as I am putting a good transmission in the car for many trouble free miles of driving. I plan to make some calls today. I don't know a lot about Bud's Benz, but possibly they also do a rebuild as well as exchange. They do this for injection pumps.

Thanks for the comments and suggestions.
Ed Riefstahl
Erie, PA

1966 230SL (Ms Magoo)
1970 280S (Miss Daisy)
1989 300SE (Majestic)
1999 BMW Z3 5 speed
1991 BMW 318I 5 Speed
1997 Toyota Paseo Convertible - Red 5 speed (have you ever seen one?)
1997 Ford Ranger step side (Mater)
2023 Mazda CX 5

[rwmastel]

I'm surprise that Bud's Benz is actually rebuilding fuel injection pumps.  It takes very expensive and probably difficult to find equipment to do that, and an education.  Maybe they're expanding.

I don't understand why you would pay $5,000 for their already rebuilt transmission when you can have one of the best companies in the country rebuild yours for half that price.

[Ed Riefstahl]

Hi Rodd,

Thanks for the comments and precisely why I'm checking with folks on this forum.
Please keep in mind that when I made the comments regarding Bud's, I had never heard of Sun Valley.

As far as Bud's Benz goes, my wife and I can make a weekend drive of it. Getting large items shipped to the eastern states from California is a real challenge now. Ask me how I know this.
 
So, when things open up on the west coast today, I'll make some calls and compare apples to apples.

Kind regards,
Ed Riefstahl

[Ed Riefstahl]

Hello folks,

I had a great conversation with Mark at Sun Valley Transmissions. A very knowledgeable and pleasant guy to talk to. I sent an email this morning with information on my SL. He called me right back and talked for 18 minutes. That my friends is getting pretty hard to come by. Needless to say I'm impressed.

He wanted to know if I thought the transmission was original to the car. I told him I had no way knowing except it says 230SL on the plate on the transmission. He says on the early SL it's very difficult to prove.

After our discussion I will check a couple more things tomorrow per his request and reply via email to him. It sounds like I may have an issue with both the converter and transmission. However the noise may be coming from the converter. I won't replace just the converter if I drop the transmission.

So, I'll probably order the rebuilt unit from him for $2550.00 plus $350.00 shipping  and have it in about 3 weeks. In the mean time I'll drop my old transmission and get things ready for the new one. After my conversation with Mark I feel very confident and also can't see any real reason to send mine to him as apposed to just doing a swap.

BTW, I did call Bud's Benz first this morning as they are on eastern time. Left the same information with them. They never called me back. I also talked with a guy who sells used vintage MB parts. He has one for $1000.00 plus shipping, but knows nothing about it.

Thanks again for comments and suggestions.
Ed Riefstahl

[rwmastel]

He wanted to know if I thought the transmission was original to the car. I told him I had no way knowing ...

Ed,

You need your car's data card from MB Classic, and match info from that to the ID tag on the unit.

But, since it is not so critical for resale value, and doesn't have importance to you personally, then there's no need to worry about it.

[Ed Riefstahl]

Hi Rodd,

Thanks for this information. I really appreciate the input and suggestions you and others have provided. I am fairly new to this forum and learning a lot from this group and still learning how to use the tools available as a member.

Even though I've repaired / restored and driven these older MB's since my early 20's I'm still learning. If you feel I should further pursue a Data Card on my car, I'd consider it at a later time. As for right now, we will be very happy to have the car back on the road and dependable.

I've asked my wife many many times over our 47 years together, what do you want for our anniversary? She'll say - " LETS FIND A ROAD WE'VE NEVER BEEN ON BEFORE".

My wife is getting back to her old self after a long winter of dealing with cancer and chemo. Her wish is for a road trip together and preferably in Ms Magoo. I'm still hoping to give her that wish, if I can possibly get at transmission in the car by summer. Our anniversary is June 26th. Will give it my best shot.

So, as for my present situation, I think you and others are correct, regarding the value in trying to determine if in fact my transmission is original to the car. So, I guess in the scope of things, it's not that important to us. I plan to order a transmission from Mark at Sun Valley.

Thanks again,
Ed Riefstahl

 

[Ed Riefstahl]

Greetings,

I ordered a rebuilt transmission from Sun Valley Mercedes Transmissions today for our 230SL today. Total price is $2900.00, delivered to Erie, PA and includes return shipping of my old unit. Looks like it could be up to 3 weeks before shipment.

Thanks to all and a special thanks to Rodd for giving us some direction with this.

Bud's Benz did finally call me back today. The only option they offer is to send my transmission to them for rebuild @ $5300.00 plus shipping each way.

I'll have a little time, so I'll get my old transmission out of my car over the next couple weeks and make sure I have everything ready for installation of the rebuild. I just installed a new starter. Guess I'll be pretty good at that now.
 
I'm wondering if I should be considering rear main seal while transmission is out? Hmmmmm. I'm going to take a good hard look at it and a couple other things in the drive train while transmission is out of the car.

Thanks again,
Ed Riefstahl

1966 230SL (Ms Magoo)
1970 280S (Miss Daisy)
1989 300SE (Majestic)
1999 BMW Z3 5 speed
1991 BMW 318I 5 Speed
1997 Toyota Paseo Convertible - Red 5 speed (have you ever seen one?)
1997 Ford Ranger step side (Mater)
2023 Mazda CX 5

[Ed Riefstahl]

Greetings Pagoda friends,

Just a quick update for those interested. I received my re-manufactured transmission from Sun Valley Mercedes Transmissions today. Total was $2900.00 including shipping both ways and I think that was very fair. It did take nearly 8 weeks to receive as apposed to 3 initially quoted. However, I did tell Mark a couple times that what I really wanted was a good transmission, not necessarily a quick one. If looks are any indication, the transmission looks fantastic and pretty much ready to install. He says it's adjusted and tested, just add fluid.

Another quick update if you will allow me. My wife and I celebrated our 47th anniversary yesterday. I mentioned a couple times on this forum that my wife's post cancer / anniversary wish was for a trip to Utah & Canyon Lands this summer in Ms Magoo (our 66 SL). Well, it's not going to happen this year. She's doing fine, but it just isn't in the cards. We sure were looking forward to the trip and possibly even meeting some new friends along the way. Even Mark at Sun Valley asked if we were planning to stop to see them in California. Maybe next summer.

Enjoy your summer folks, and maybe even do a little Pagoda cruising for us.

Ed Riefstahl

1966 230SL (Ms Magoo)
1970 280S (Miss Daisy)
1989 300SE (Majestic)
1999 BMW Z3 5 speed
1991 BMW 318I 5 Speed
1997 Toyota Paseo Convertible - Red 5 speed (have you ever seen one?)
1997 Ford Ranger step side (Mater)
2023 Mazda CX 5




 

 

[Cees Klumper]

Thanks for keeping us posted; sorry to hear about having to forego the trip, hopefully you can replace it with a nice alternative. Let us know how the new transmission works out please 😊

[Ed Riefstahl]

Greetings Pagoda friends,

I was finally able to get the transmission installed Wednesday with a little help from my brother. Today I was finally able to get things buttoned up enough to start the engine after several months. The car started instantly with the first turn of the key, and sounds fantastic.

I'm happy to report no more loud clatter noise. I am now convinced more than ever that something in the transmission or more likely the torque converter caused the super harsh shift the last time I drove the car, last summer, causing the yoke in the differential to snap.

The car is still on my lift and I still need to button up a few more things, and put fluid in brake system and bleed the brakes. I may actually get to drive it in a couple days.

Hope you're enjoying your summer,

Ed Riefstahl

1966 230SL (Ms Magoo)
1970 280S (Miss Daisy)
1989 300SE (Majestic) - Sold this week.
1999 BMW Z3 5 speed
1991 BMW 318I 5 Speed
1997 Toyota Paseo Convertible - Red 5 speed (have you ever seen one?)
1997 Ford Ranger step side (Mater)
2023 Mazda CX 5

[Ed Riefstahl]

Greetings,

I was able to bleed the brake system on our 66 230SL today and put the car on its wheels for the first time in 11 months. What great feeling. We took the car for a nice 20 mile drive this evening and it runs, drives and shifts incredible. Nice job on the transmission, Sun Valley.

However the speedometer isn't working now - bah hum bug. So, I'll have to get it back in the air and see what I can figure out. I really took my time hooking that stuff up, so go figure. Hope it's something simple.

Ed Riefstahl
Erie, PA

1966 230SL (Ms Magoo)
1970 280S (Miss Daisy)
1989 300SE (Majestic)
1999 BMW Z3 5 speed
1991 BMW 318I 5 Speed
1997 Toyota Paseo Convertible - Red 5 speed (have you ever seen one?)
1997 Ford Ranger step side (Mater)
2023 Mazda CX 5

[cfm65@me.com]

Hi Ed,
I am so pleased to hear the good news re the cancer.
Congratulations on reaching the 47 year mark. Wishing you both good health and many, more happy years together.

We also reached the 47 year mile stone, earlier this year.

I realise this is not relevant anymore, but a long time ago, I selected D in my 65 230SL and with a ‘click’, something in the diff snapped. The prop shaft kept turning but the car not. I swapped out the rear axle and drove it another 20 Years before trading it for 220SE Cabrio.

Regards
Chris
Cape Town

[Ed Riefstahl]

Thanks for the kind words, Chris,

I was able to fix the speedometer issue today. I put the car back on the lift and as I suspected, the cable wasn't completely inserted into the receiver pocket on the transmission. After removing the allen head bolt, I was able to push the cable further into the pocket. However, the 10mm nut fell off from the top. So, the real challenge was getting the 10mm nut back on the top of the bolt when it's impossible to reach my left hand between the transmission and tunnel to hold the nut.

I finally flattened the end of a wire and super glued it to the nut. I then held the wire up there and turned the bolt until it threaded into the nut. Mission accomplished. I was also able to get the neutral safety cable properly adjusted, to back up lights work now. Just in time for PA inspection tomorrow morning.

Ed Riefstahl
Erie, PA

1966 230SL (Ms Magoo)
1970 280S (Miss Daisy)
1989 300SE (Majestic)
1999 BMW Z3 5 speed
1991 BMW 318I 5 Speed
1997 Toyota Paseo Convertible - Red 5 speed (have you ever seen one?)
1997 Ford Ranger step side (Mater)
2023 Mazda CX 5

[Ed Riefstahl]

Greetings folks,

After spending the past 12 months helping my wife through her very difficult cancer ordeal and 11 months repairing our very broken 230SL (Ms Magoo), we were able to take the car on a test drive.

Last Wednesday we took a 180 mile round trip cruise to Geneva On The Lake, in Ohio on the shore of Lake Erie, half way between Erie, PA and Cleveland, OH. The car ran, drove and shifted like new. It actually starts in 1st gear now. It has never done that in 21 years / 65,000 miles. I thought it was designed to start in 2nd.

We had such a great and long overdue day trip, we decided to take it on a weekend trip to Watkins Glen and the Finger Lakes region in central New York. The car performed fantastic. We had a 525 mile "top down" blast and were actually told we had the most beautiful car in Watkins Glen.

A very brief summery of work we completed included, complete new cooling system, R & R rear differential / axle, install re-manufactured automatic transmission, replace all rear body and suspension mounts, motor mounts, shocks, sway bar linkage, complete braking system front to rear, new alternator, new starter and whatever I'm forgetting.

Thanks everyone for all your help, support, comments, and suggestions through a pretty difficult year.

Ed Riefstahl

1966 230SL (Ms Magoo)
1970 280S (Miss Daisy)
1989 300SE (Majestic) Sold
1999 BMW Z3 5 speed
1991 BMW 318I 5 Speed
1997 Toyota Paseo Convertible - Red 5 speed (have you ever seen one?)
1997 Ford Ranger step side (Mater)
2023 Mazda CX 5