Author Topic: Radiator/Upgrade Question  (Read 6437 times)

hitch02

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Radiator/Upgrade Question
« on: July 06, 2005, 09:11:48 »
I didn't find exactly what I was looking for in the archives on this.  Maybe you all can advise:

Regarding the cooling system in the 1969 280SL, and specifically, in advance of my driving the car from Atlanta to DC, I am considering doing one of three things:

1 - Leave it as is - the water pump is recent, and there are no obvious signs for concern, although the car runs a little warm with the A/C on in the heat of summer at low speeds/traffic.

2 - Upgrade (?) to electric fans - highly recommended by one source, not recommended by another.  Any experience here?  I know that originality becomes an issue, but supposedly does wonders for the cooling capabilities of the car.

3 - Go for an increased capacity radiator + cooling system flush.  Any thoughts on whether this is likely to make any substantive difference in the cooling performance fo the car?  I know on my old BMW 2800 going from a 2- to a three-core radiator was a huge difference, but I do not know how these cars behave well enough to act with confidence.

Any thoughts are appreciated!!!

-Reed

1969 280 SL Silver/Blue Tex (enroute)
1982 240D Midnight Blue/Parchment - 108K
ex- 1971 300SEL 6.3
ex- 1984 300DT
ex- 1994 E420
ex- 1990 300CE-24

jeffc280sl

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Re: Radiator/Upgrade Question
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2005, 09:44:59 »
Hi Reed,

I have a 1970 280SL.  I removed the A/C condenser and installed an electric fan.  There is an improvement in cooling but can't say for sure if its because of the missing condenser of electric fan.  There is very, very little room in front of the condenser.  This makes for a small very thin fan.  Had my car out recently during a DC/Balt hot humid spell on the beltway and 95 and the temp gauge was positioned just below horizontal at 180 degrees or so.  Can't go wrong with a cooling flush.  It gives you a known starting point.  Same goes for hoses.  I would check and replace any suspect hoses just for a baseline.  Would hate to blow a hose on the way up here.  If you get stuck in traffic you can turn the heater lever and push water through the heater core.  Just another way to disspate the heat. You may consider a new thermostat while your in the general area.

Another option concerning fans is to remove the mechanical fan assembly and install a puller type electric fan. It could be larger and possibly more effective than the small one. Maybe this is what you had in mind anyway.  I saw a friends new E500 the other day and it only has the electric fan for cooling.  No mechanical fan.

I've not done this but I suspect it would help.  In traffic under extreme conditions you can pop the hood.  It opens from the windshield side so it won't fly up as you move along. I think the increased air flow through the grill, and given hot air rises, a way for engine heat to escape the engine compartment via air flow can't hurt.

Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed

hitch02

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Re: Radiator/Upgrade Question
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2005, 06:39:47 »
Thanks for your response.  What is being recommended is removal of the mechanical fan and replacement, not unlike the new cars.

-Reed

1969 280 SL Silver/Blue Tex (enroute)
1982 240D Midnight Blue/Parchment - 108K
ex- 1971 300SEL 6.3
ex- 1984 300DT
ex- 1994 E420
ex- 1990 300CE-24

jeffc280sl

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Re: Radiator/Upgrade Question
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2005, 07:23:26 »
Hi Reed,

I think that's a "cool" idea.  I would be interested to see how it works if you decide to proceed.  One thing I have on my fan setup is an adjustable thermostat.  It ramps up rpms as the heat increases and is programmed to stay on for up to 30 seconds after the car has been shut off.  It works well.  Another thing you might look at is the current draw of an electric fan.  You may want to consider an alternator upgrade at some point.  It has been discussed on this site.

Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed

mdsalemi

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Re: Radiator/Upgrade Question
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2005, 19:53:15 »
Hello Reed,

If the car runs warm in traffic with the AC on, that's somewhat normal...

As a suggestion so you don't end up doing something you have not thought through completely, suggest just ensuring your cooling system has been flushed and cleaned and refilled prior to your trip, and ensure the viscous clutch is working properly.  Anything else such as fan replacement, different radiator cores, etc. sound a bit drastic to do before you even get the car home.  You'd feel pretty bad if you invested a lot of money into it, and then decided it was not the right thing to do.  Remember you can always ship the car for a lot less money then major cooling system work...

Tom Rose in Boise, one of our members, has done some extensive work on his cooling system--suggest talking to him about his results prior to major investments.

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid
2024 Ford Mustang Mach Ex PEV

Dick M

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Re: Radiator/Upgrade Question
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2005, 21:26:00 »
I know there has been discussion on the how the thermostat opens in two stages.  Can someone explain the concept, how it works and how it might relate to overheating...please?

When I pulling a hill temp goes up.. if I open the heater flow (not too comfortable in our foothill summers) temp will drop... seems additional capacity of heater does the trick but can this relate to the thermostat's staged opening?

Dick M
1970 280SL

ja17

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Re: Radiator/Upgrade Question
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2005, 22:23:20 »
Hello Dick,
When cold the thermostat closes and prevents the  passage of coolant to the radiator and at the same time it opens up a by-pass, circulating the coolant while by-passing the radiator. There are  actually two functioning gates (round discs) built into the themostat. Notice the short by-pass hose between the themostat housing bottom and the waterpump. As the engine warms up the second gate in the thermostat closes off the bypass and opens the other disc so the coolant can be routed to the radiator.
If the themostat is left out the bypass will be wide open and some coolant will bypass the radiator.


By turning on the heater, you are increasing the capacity of your cooling sysytem, or enlarging your radiator in a sense. This could indicate that your radiator is a bit weak. If your car continues to get warmer as your car travels down the highway at speed, this is a sure sign that the radiator is not up to snuff.

If the engine cools down at highway speeds then there can be many other issues, radiator, themostat, waterpump, viscous coupling, fanblade, clogged cooling system, engine problem.
 I took care of some late W113 cars in the early 70s when they were only a couple of years old. The late W113 USA cars stuck in traffic jambs on very hot days would run hot and eventually overheat. One of these belonged to the late Allen Funkhouser, National MBCA President at the time. His 280SL was show condition and the maintenance was always on time and by the book. He bought his  1971 280SL new. If caught in traffic on a very hot day, eventually, he would have to switch off the AC in order to keep the car from overheating.

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

Ben

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Re: Radiator/Upgrade Question
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2005, 03:29:29 »
So Reed............can we expect to read details of this trip in an upcoming edition of Mercedes Enthusiast ??  [:p]

Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.

hitch02

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Re: Radiator/Upgrade Question
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2005, 06:08:05 »
Re: the cooling system - I think the prudent thing to do, as was pointed out earlier and by other, more technical folks I know, is to get to know the car first, then worry about upgrades, etc.  The tech in Atlanta, I think, is very proud of his cooling fan modification, but it requires alteration of wiring, and I'd hate to get home, only to find that nobody local can figure out how to maintain or repair his modification.

As far as Mercedes Enthusiast goes, yes, this will be my new running report car, and will likely start with a piece on buying it and driving it home.  We'll just have to see where the car takes me from there!!  Thise articles will probably start in the October/November time frame - I have to wrap-up the 6.3 first!

-Reed

1969 280 SL Silver/Blue Tex (enroute)
1982 240D Midnight Blue/Parchment - 108K
ex- 1971 300SEL 6.3
ex- 1984 300DT
ex- 1994 E420
ex- 1990 300CE-24

Dick M

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Re: Radiator/Upgrade Question
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2005, 16:16:51 »
Hi Joe... Thanks for response (make a good video.)



Dick M
1970 280SL

blairwag

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Re: Radiator/Upgrade Question
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2005, 10:48:15 »
Humm, Replacing the mechanical fan assembly with an electric?   Wouldn't that, like, kill the car's authenticity, like say in the concours?


--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
William Blair Wagner: blairwag@earthlink.net
Education is not always knowing the answer,
...but rather knowing where to look for it!
1971 280SL US Automatic
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

mdsalemi

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Re: Radiator/Upgrade Question
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2005, 10:53:49 »
quote:
Originally posted by blairwag

Humm, Replacing the mechanical fan assembly with an electric?   Wouldn't that, like, kill the car's authenticity, like say in the concours?


--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
William Blair Wagner: blairwag@earthlink.net
Education is not always knowing the answer,
...but rather knowing where to look for it!
1971 280SL US Automatic
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Absolutely, positively--but not everyone is into the concours thing, and some will do anything to get the car running right--even if it means an electric fan!  Depending on how easy it is to "restore" back to "original" it may not be too bad a thing to do...most modern cars have gone electric as you know.

While I have no A/C, when Dr. Benz replaced my viscous fan coupling the cooling improved by remaining more stable in hotter weather and slower traffic--though I do my best to avoid both when possible!

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid
2024 Ford Mustang Mach Ex PEV

hitch02

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Re: Radiator/Upgrade Question
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2005, 11:09:59 »
One of the problems I had with the conversion is how much splicing there is into the electrical system.  Also, the tech promoting this *upgrade* was dubious about how easy it is to undo.

Frankly, I am not planning oin driving this car so regularly as to warrant such an upgrade.  If it was something common and relatively unobtrusive, it may have been worth doing, since I am not planning on a 100-point concours car.  However, the water pump is new, the radiator has been re-cored, and accoring to the owner, the car has never come close to overheating.

-Reed

1969 280 SL Silver/Blue Tex (enroute)
1982 240D Midnight Blue/Parchment - 108K
ex- 1971 300SEL 6.3
ex- 1984 300DT
ex- 1994 E420
ex- 1990 300CE-24

ted280sl

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Re: Radiator/Upgrade Question
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2005, 15:24:06 »
Reed,
  I tried a product a few years ago called Water Wetter. It is an additive to your cooling system that makes it more effective. It really works and I suspect that even the best Concourse judges would not deduct points for using it.
Regards,
Ted
PS: It is 94 degrees outside today so I used another car.

rwmastel

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Re: Radiator/Upgrade Question
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2005, 21:01:37 »
quote:
Originally posted by Ben

So Reed............can we expect to read details of this trip in an upcoming edition of Mercedes Enthusiast ??  [:p]
How about in Pagoda World????

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both  tops
1994 E420
Rodd

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