Looking for a Pre-Purchase inspection in Traverse City Michigan??

[RichardPercival]

Hi all,

Lovely being here

I'm finally looking to buy my first W113! I have financing lined up and have done my basic research over many years of wanting one since I watched Two for the Road in the late 90s and reading loads of marque/model books.

I've found a car that I'm interested in - very much a 3 everyday runner not concourse or even 'good' and looking for someone who can do an inspection.

I keep hearing awful things about Lemon Squad, and the selling dealer (car is on consignment) has been very helpful but the local Euro specialist let me know that candidly they no longer have someone on the team who is knowledgeable about older Mercedes.

Does anyone have advice on what to do, or know of a service in this state/location? I know the car is anything but perfect, but really trying to gauge whether the rust in trunk is surface or from the cross member below being swiss cheese and similar queries. Loads of paperwork from old services, however loads of dubious areas also.

Hope someone might have some thoughts..

Thanks!
Rich

[thelews]

Try Don Drabik at http://www.cherryclassiccars.com/

[rwmastel]

Richard,

Glad you found us pre-purchase!!  And, thanks for joining as a full member.  Have you read this?
https://www.sl113.org/wiki/Buying/PrepurchaseEvaluation

What's your experience/skills with maintaining any car?  A classic German car?  The more experience you have, the more details you can confidently discuss with the person doing the inspection.

Best of luck finding the right one!  An age old saying - buy the best example you can afford.

[rwmastel]

I keep hearing awful things about Lemon Squad, and the selling dealer (car is on consignment) has been very helpful but the local Euro specialist let me know that candidly they no longer have someone on the team who is knowledgeable about older Mercedes.

Why doesn't the local Euro specialist inspect the car?

[RichardPercival]

Thanks! I’ll reach out to him.

[rwmastel]

Richard,

I know several people in MBCA Western Michigan section, so I have reached out to them for suggestions.

[RichardPercival]

Thanks Rodd!

I am someone with very little experience in dealing with the actual mechanics, since watching endless Tyrell’ classic workshop videos doesn’t really count 😊
I am well read on the Pagoda in that I have multiple books and know about matching body numbers, spot welds, headlight notches and the like - but again it’s all theoretical not actual understanding..


The car I’m looking at is here, and of course looks nice enough in the selected pictures with tired carpets but that look to be original with the gear shift gator actually molded in - I’d like to keep stuff original though I have no expectation of having a concours car with only 60k to spend on buying. I hope to then slowly upgrade and repair things as I go, but would like a reliable and presentable weekend driver not a project/ basket case lol!

https://www.grautogallery.com/vehicles/btc0772-c/1966-mercedes-benz-230sl-convertible/gallery?image_source=https%3A%2F%2Fcdn.dealeraccelerate.com%2Fag%2F2%2F13298%2F1326416%2F790x1024%2F1966-mercedes-benz-230sl-convertible

[rwmastel]

That's a nice looking car.  Would be nice to know if the service records they show can validate the very low mileage (kilometers) shown on the dash.  They took lots of good pics.

You're right, nobody wants to be stuck with a money pit!  Rust is the #1 concern, as well as #2, # 3, and #4 concern!  It's the most expensive thing do deal with and can be hard to find at first.  This is the most important thing your inspector should know how to look for.  Then, all the mechanicals. 

There's a lot of nice pics of that car, looks great at first glance.  The engine bay should be body color and firewall pad is missing, so who ever did the painting was not trying to go "concourse" by any means.  I wonder if they took off all the trim and lights to do the paint job.  I wonder what the original color was.  There are quite a lot of original, correct things shown in the pictures.  I like the chrome strip that would be below a narrow Euro rear license plate.  I wish I had that radio!  It doesn't have a locking gas cap, but reproductions don't cost much.  Panel gaps look good.  You can't get the brown door sill rubber mats anymore.  I wonder if this has the original brown rubber floor mats under those carpeted floor mats.  The engine has a fan shroud, I think that is unusual for a 230SL.  It has a tool kit, but would be nice to see all the tools out.  A correct original set is worth crazy money, so they probably replaced any valuable tools with basic ones.  This is a European model similar to my 230SL, and actually was made very close to the same time!  That car's VIN ends in 18201 and mine ends in 18381. 

Do you already have a good mechanic lined up to use?  I'm sure there will be things you want fixed within the first few months of ownership.  If you're handy at all, you can learn to do basic maintenance yourself, which gets you to know your car more intimately.

Along with the link to our site I posted above, take a look here for what a good car (original, and restored to original specs) looks like.
https://www.motoringinvestments.com/mercedes-280sl-w113-buyers-guide/
https://www.motoringinvestments.com/restored-cars/

If you don't snap this one up, then I strongly recommend you go drive a few Pagodas that you find for sale near you.  It may influence what your priorities are with regards to what things are good or bad with any car you are considering for purchase.

[RichardPercival]

I then have been talking with the consignment dealer who have been transparent and helpful. The radio only turns on with no sound and the antenna is stuck half way. Clock doesn’t work but wipers, Speedo and rev counter do.

They’ve sent me photos at my request - basically the paint was redone last year but considering it cost 17k on the receipt, not very well! The notches don’t look to be there and there is some low quality work.

[RichardPercival]

Interestingly it looks like the right wing may be original but the left one has been replaced and there is no data card - the paint color is not original (looks like it could be dark maroon or tobacco brown original in the paint flaw)

[badali]

With the lack of spot welds in your last pictures I would have the mounting of those front fenders inspected closely.  There could be an improper repair in that area.  I see bubbling in one of the pictures near the fuse box.

[RichardPercival]

With regard to rust - it looks like the floorpans have been repaired with filler a some point but it doesn't look like it is necessarily getting worse. Hard to tell if the trunk floor rust is from the beam beneath being rusted through.. When it was repainted last year paperwork receip said was sanded in trunk so looks like perhaps has worsened.
Is car a 59k value or overpriced for work needed?

[badali]

My opinion is it is over priced.  The body will cause you some financial pain if you want to make it better.  Especially the front around the engine bay...

[badali]

I saw this on craig's list in Pittsburgh.  It may be a better deal.

https://pittsburgh.craigslist.org/cto/d/baden-1967-mercedes-benz-230sl/7675539829.html

[rwmastel]

I updated my post above.

Factory colors (and some other useful info) will be listed on the ID plate.  It's in the engine bay, drivers side, where the relays and washer fluid pump are mounted (by the washer fluid bag).  Do you have a pick of that?
https://www.sl113.org/wiki/DataCard/BodyandPaintNumberPlate

Can you tell we enjoy analyzing cars and helping people shop?   

[RichardPercival]

Thanks badali!

That does look like it might potentially be less of a can of worms though it is a lot less original in some aspects than the other car (notice the little black guards in the engine bay to damp the hood closing are missing - would prefer a manual on the 230 (what I was looking for) but that of all things is not the deal breaker. Assuming this is light ivory.

What do you think of the Pittsburgh car Rodd, better value? I suppose I can haggle on the brown car given the work needed, but people usually sell for what they can afford to, and the owner seems to have only bought it last year after the person who did the bad paint job on behalf of he owner for 30 years in Vermont or their kid who was trying to sell it.

The id plate is missing from the MI car (likely when the dodgy looking inner wing work was done) and I can't see the info in the paperwork so would be a question of paying $150 from MB for the info once owned and then I guess getting a new plate made. From the pics of the footwells I fear the odd colored floor mats are it - would be cool to have them and the rubber door strips in original brown obviously! The mileage quoted is consistent with the odometer going to 99999km and then rolling over up to the current 4000 or so km. I think since there is info from when it was imported after 1981 and then owned by the same person for 30 ears it might well be genuine and documented but good call, I'll ask the dealer if it really is documented!

[rwmastel]

I don't look around at cars for sale, so I'm not the person who will tell you a good value or not.  I bought mine 23 years ago and have not shopped for another, so I can't correlate condition to value.  I've seen a lot of them in person, though, at our national events.  Was in Chicago a month ago for Pagoda Fest 2023 and there were about 25 cars there.  https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=37211.0  The key will be getting it to a restorer or inspector who knows Pagodas and will write up a detailed report for you.  It will be worth it to do this for each car you seriously consider to avoid buying that dreaded money pit.  People here can extrapolate on the report, explaining costs of repairs and so forth.  Buy the best example you can afford.  And, get it the way you want it (auto/manual, 230/250(early/late)/280, 3rd seat or not, California coupe, USA or Euro style, color combo, etc).  It can all be changed, but the less you have to change the less you have to spend.

We should add a section to our buyers guide with some comparison details to help novice shoppers decide what they want.  Maybe a good list of details/comparisons already exist elsewhere, in other websites and books.  For example, a novice may not know that the 230SL generally came with a 3.75:1 differential ratio, which produces less RPM on the freeway than the 4.08:1 that generally came on the later cars.  There were other ratios offered.  People with the 4.08:1 often want to swap the diff or entire rear axle for a better ratio because of the high RPMs on the freeway.  Others choose to change transmission to a 5 or 6 speed manual.  That's significate money to some owners, and downtime with out the car.  That engine noise really irritates some people, but the car was engineered to handle it.

[RichardPercival]

Thanks Rodd and Brad, I think my next step is to get the MI car inspected properly. While it has worrying details in the engine bay so that I need a proper rust report, it is pretty closely aligned with what I want - the earlier 230 with the 4 speed manual and Euro headlights and original tail lights and no additional over riders on the bumpers. While the Cream car has better paint that looks right in the engine bay and was likely redone, it has new rear lights and bumpers with overriders that I believe are not original to a 230 even US spec. Those of course are probably cheaper to replace than rusty panels! But overall it isn't as much the look of car I want, so most important for the MI car is that it's safe and not actively deteriorating due to the less than great work, while I wait to be able to afford to redo that stuff. 
So time to get an inspection!

[RichardPercival]

Dealer just sent the data sheet I requested since missing from the engine bay. Now to decode it

[RichardPercival]

So it should be Bronze Brown metalic - seems like a reasonable approximation!

[RichardPercival]

A tidier Pagoda in the same 461 paint code..

[DaveB]

My opinion is it is over priced.  The body will cause you some financial pain if you want to make it better.  Especially the front around the engine bay...

I agree, you can probably find a better, more original, 230 for less money.
On the other hand if you drive this car and it pulls really strong and feels tight and starts easily hot or cold then you will probably really like it despite its failings.

[mdsalemi]

If you are looking for a car without any issues, particularly a perfect body with flawless sheet metal (regardless of paint condition) in a price point that this car is commanding, you are looking for a unicorn. While you certainly don't want to buy something whose condition is unknown, understand that all metal can be repaired just as the mechanicals. You simply want to know the condition of what you are buying.

One of our members, AlexD, had his car wrecked last year here in NC, and it's now in the final stages of body work at Motorwerks Group in Commerce Township, MI, which is in the Detroit area. Probably no better a place in Michigan that knows the Pagodas, particularly from the body/metal standpoint. The owner, Dr. Satish Tummala has been known to travel to inspect cars; in fact he flew down to Raleigh NC last year to provide a bodywork estimate on Alex's car. So worth a call. Motorwerks Group, +1-248-668-6793. https://www.motorwerksgroup.com  I would better trust someone who knows these cars from the R&R standpoint than some unknown entity.

[RichardPercival]

Thank you all very much for your responses! I'm trying to use my head not heart on a purchase, but this car fits a lot of my desires for spec being a late 230 manual - I like the color which seems to be correct, I like the interior which looks to be the original bronze leather etc. I'm trying to get it inspected even while knowing that the front fenders inner and outer will eventually need to be put right, the question is how urgent is it.

At this point I will try to get an Inspector to ascertain the rust issues and whether they are extensive or can be/are curtailed to make the car safe and useable without getting significantly worse. Then of course the mechanics need to be sound and hopefully the un-benchmarked 230 engine is correct and is one that did and still does pull strong

At the end of the day the cars are likely worth what we're willing to pay for it, so at the price point and level 3 this is the most wide open of categories - since we all know it needs work, but how much? Hopefully upon check, the aluminium panels / gearbox and engine still match the build sheet!

[RichardPercival]

Does anyone know if sun visors on the 230 were all the same color? Were they matched to the Hard top headlining in either off white or 'bamboo?'