Author Topic: 1964 230SL Hard Starting...When Cold (Read 5846 times)

Charles 230SL · « **Reply #25 on:** December 01, 2024, 17:44:34 »

TJ, last year one of our members had several cone valves in his R11 injection pump that were stuck open. These same cone (check) valves may be binding or stuck shut on your fuel injection pump. Since you already have the fuel lines to injectors 4, 5 and 6 disconnected, remove the other end of one (or all three) of these lines from the injection pump and confirm the cone valves aren't seized up. There's some good photos here: https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=36768.msg269483#msg269483.

mistertj · « **Reply #26 on:** December 01, 2024, 20:45:12 »

Charles - Where are the "cone valves"? Here's what my pump looks like.

mistertj · « **Reply #27 on:** December 01, 2024, 21:10:14 »

Charles - See photo.

BobH · « **Reply #28 on:** December 01, 2024, 21:21:28 »

There's a good write up on these valves in here:

https://www.sl113.org/wiki/Restricted/PagodaNotes?action=download&upname=PNv8i1.pdf

And how to remove them:

https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=15754.0

mistertj · « **Reply #29 on:** December 01, 2024, 21:26:33 »

Awesome! Thank you.

Charles 230SL · « **Reply #30 on:** December 01, 2024, 22:22:04 »

The cone-valves and springs would have been under the 19mm outlet fittings, but looks like you've got the later ball-valves.
There's a few photos of the R11 cone-valves here: https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=24659.msg177150#msg177150.

Just curious, is that an R11 pump? thanks, Charles

mistertj · « **Reply #31 on:** December 01, 2024, 22:54:42 »

Sorry for any confusion. The photo is of a spare injector pump and I had forgotten that Pacific Fuel Injection had modified it for me to the ball valves. It is an R11 otherwise. I will check the pump that's in the car during the week to see what's going on. Thanks though for the memory refresher. It's been a while since I last messed around with the pumps.

Thanks for the info though.

mistertj · « **Reply #32 on:** December 02, 2024, 17:35:31 »

Hi Charles - Think you're right on the stuck cone valves. I did what you suggested and tried to pull the valve out. (5 & 6) Doesn't want to move. (Photo) Took a look at another R11 pump and was easy to pull the valve and stem out. (Photo) Any suggestions on getting the stuck ones out?

Tom

Charles 230SL · « **Reply #33 on:** December 03, 2024, 00:22:13 »

I'd apply some penetrating oil to each valve, let them sit awhile, and then try twisting them loose. If unable to get the valves loose, I'd just pull the valve and the seat both out of the pump. If I remember correctly, the only thing holding each seat in place is the nylon seal ring.

If the cone valves are badly corroded or you damage them getting them loose, you might want to consider replacing all of them with those ball-valves in your other pump. Not sure if you ever had a problem with hot-starts, but when these cone (check) valves wear out, the metal fuel lines will leak-down and make hot-starts difficult.

mistertj · « **Reply #34 on:** December 03, 2024, 02:30:04 »

Charles - Thanks for the info and suggestions. What I was thinking of doing is do the penetrating oil and then after a day or two for any of the cone valves that don't loosen, pull the valve far enough out so I can grab the top piece with pliers and twist/rotate to loosen. If it comes loose pull the cone shaft out and push the base back in. Hopefully most will loose with the Krill oil penetrant. If I do need to replace any of the plastic rings, any idea of a source?

Tom

ja17 · « **Reply #35 on:** December 03, 2024, 06:35:26 »

Check to make sure the rack in the pump is not stuck. A stuck rack is usually caused by one or more stuck pistons under the cone valve.

mistertj · « **Reply #36 on:** December 03, 2024, 13:22:19 »

Hi Joe - Thank you for the input. I'm guessing that I have as many as 5 stuck valves. Was hoping to fix without taking the injector pump out of the car but guessing that it's got to come out to do the job right. Any suggestions on "un-sticking" the valves without actually pulling them out?

TJ

mistertj · « **Reply #37 on:** December 03, 2024, 15:44:03 »

Joe, Charlie and any others. Decided to leave the injector pump in the car. (Photo) With home made tool, cone valve assemblies are coming out smoothly. I have removed cone valves to #1 and #2 cylinder thus far. They are frozen solid. (Photo)I plan on removing all of them aa I think most are frozen, remove sealing washer and let soak in penetrating oil for remainder of the day. I have another pump that I could rob for parts but would rather fix this one. Any idea on the part number for the sealing rings and a possible source. I see sealing kits for the whole pump but would rather purchase just the sealing rings. Also not sure that the part number I have for the whole kit for the right pump (R11).

TJ

mistertj · « **Reply #38 on:** December 03, 2024, 20:40:03 »

Finally got all of the R11 Injection cone valves out. Came out easier than I had anticipated a tool I made, some time ago. All the valves were stuck and took some coaxing (hammer and pointed driver pin) to come apart. Once apart, spray carb cleaner and some Q-Tips cleaned them quite well. The gunk on the valve mating parts was like one might find on the inside of an old carb...that brownish stuff. It all brushed off though with the solvent and q-tips. Now the valves slide just like new. Going to try to find new seals but if I can't soon, I'm going to reinstall the valves and not replace until I find some at a later date. See photos to include the removal tool I fashioned. Made the job very easy.

Charles 230SL · « **Reply #39 on:** December 03, 2024, 23:56:53 »

Quote from: mistertj on December 03, 2024, 20:40:03

..Going to try to find new seals but if I can't soon, I'm going to reinstall the valves and not replace until I find some at a later date..

Tj, glad to hear you got the cone valves loose. Seems I bought some seals (separately) from Robert Fairchild a few years back which saved me from having to buy the entire kit. Robert Fairchild (Jerry Fairchild Industries) may be reached at http://www.fuelinjectioncenter.com (530) 474-4646.

If you use the old seals be sure to keep a lookout for leaks around the outlet fittings when the engine is running. gosh, I had no idea those seal kits had gotten so expensive: https://www.authenticclassics.com/Bosch-Injection-Pump-Seal-Kit-PES-6KL-70-120-Model-p/auth-009203.htm.

mistertj · « **Reply #40 on:** December 04, 2024, 01:10:14 »

Charles - Thank you, I'll give Robert a call. Did business with them about 5 years ago. So...no strangers and I was really impressed. He checked out one of my pumps just for the price of shipping.

TJ

mistertj · « **Reply #41 on:** December 04, 2024, 22:34:42 »

For Joe Alexander and any others interested. Well, very proud of myself that I was able to free up all six of the cone valves. Following that I checked the rack as Joe advised. Much to my disappointment, the rack is stuck. The pump is still in the car but would like any suggestions on how to unstick the rack while it is still there. Thanking you in advance.

TJ

Quick update - Did more research to find additional info. Found a 2015 article here on unsticking pistons by JA. Anyway I'm attaching a photo showing what I'm guessing is the top of my pistons so I plan on getting some hardwood dowel material and tapping to see if I can free up. Still...any additional info would be much appreciated.

Duncan200 · « **Reply #42 on:** December 05, 2024, 10:14:34 »

If anyone wants to get the seal kit cheaper, this is where I got mine from.

https://mercedes-classic-parts.com/en/product/dichtset-injectiepomp-m127981-m189-v-nr-f026t03028/

I also purchased the governor seal kit from them as well.

Very reasonable prices, for me, not having to pay VAT helps subsidise the shipping cost to Australia.

Doug.

mistertj · « **Reply #43 on:** December 06, 2024, 20:59:07 »

Current status. All cone valves were frozen but managed to get all of them freed up. Then found most or all pistons stuck/frozen as well. Have been using penetrating oil for the most part but first started with carb cleaner. Have been tapping on the piston surface with an oak dowel...now on second day doing that in addition to adding more penetrating oil a few times a day. Think I may have motion on one piston. I read somewhere that it may take a week or two. Curious as to where the liquid is going?

mistertj · « **Reply #44 on:** December 07, 2024, 16:43:00 »

Status update: Cone valves removed and eventually got them unstuck and moving nicely. Pistons, with lots of carb cleaner, penetrating oil and coaxing with dowels, are unstuck vertically but rack is still stuck. Still trying not to have to remove injector pump but it may be inevitable. Ideas welcome.

TJ

mistertj · « **Reply #45 on:** December 07, 2024, 21:39:34 »

Latest status update. Hooray! The rack is free. All the soaking and tapping worked but I was at a loss on manually unsticking the rack. I'm sure that it's written somewhere but since the rack rod has a threaded hole, I made a puller of sorts. It was all the coaxing the rack needed. A little rough at first but after moving the rack back and forth numerous times and having the starter rotate the engine, everything is pretty smooth. I'm going to put a little Marvel Mystery oil in the cylinders and exercise the pump more over the next couple days while waiting for new cone valve seals arrive. In the meantime I am also going to check the fuel in the tank and inspect if there's much rust in the tank. We'll see.

TJ

ja17 · « **Reply #46 on:** December 10, 2024, 04:50:29 »

Be sure to use the correct torque on the 19mm injection pump fittings.

mistertj · « **Reply #47 on:** December 10, 2024, 14:04:45 »

Joe - On the site I saw some discussion on 18 ftlbs but in reading through some of my books, I saw 25 ftlbs for the pressure valves.

Tom

ja17 · « **Reply #48 on:** December 10, 2024, 16:10:09 »

Yes I believe the 230 SL is 18 ft. lbs. and the the later SLs is a little more . It depends on the pump version.

Charles 230SL · « **Reply #49 on:** December 12, 2024, 00:57:09 »

TJ, I responded to your earlier email. Perhaps OBE at this point but I found the bag the Bosch seal-kit came in and unfortunately part numbers for the valve seals were not provided in the literature. looks like you're well on your way getting that FIP squared away..

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Author Topic: 1964 230SL Hard Starting...When Cold (Read 5846 times)