Starting problem when hot

[toneypenna]

If yours is actually version 3, then the two starting aids are wired together. Reducing fuel supply to the IP solenoid would result in a reduction of fuel at the CSV. Do you know how to do the "split linkage test"?

Joe

Is the split linkage test the same as the linkage and idle adjustments listed in the tech manual? If yes I previously did that along with replacing the ball sockets to alleviate the play in the linkage.

Jim

[ja17]

Don't confuse the split linkage "test" with The Linkage "Tour". The split linkage test is a way to perform a basic fuel injection mixture test.

[toneypenna]

Jim -

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.  Testing the electricals will not tell you that the cold start valve is spraying or that the rack is actually moving.

Earlier, I had cold start problems as well.  After verifying the electricals and testing the as described, I found I had a peeing cold start valve.  I installed an expensive new valve that sprayed perfectly.  Still no start.  A new battery got it going after long cranks.  In desperation, I disconnected the cold start valve and was astounded when the car started on the turn of the key.  I have left it that way since.

Ct,

Thank you for your input, My problem is it starts when cold but wont start hot. If I disonect the CSV and the IPS at their respective relays it starts right up when hot, but wont start with them disconnected when cold. I have to do some research on this, but I'm thinking of wireing a switch that will disengage both the CSV and the IPS when hot to assist in starting. Your thoughts?

Jim

I also have a manual switch for the cold start valve, but it makes no difference on hot starts.

I call it COPS - Cranky Old Pump Syndrome.

My theory is that the Warm Running Device alone gets the engine going when cold.  Hot, the injection pump is not developing enough pressure to open the injectors.

I have a new starter that I am going to install to see if higher cranking speed will help the hot start.

Cheers,

CT

[toneypenna]

Don't confuse the split linkage "test" with The Linkage "Tour". The split linkage test is a way to perform a basic fuel injection mixture test.

Joe
Thanks, I’ll look further in the tech manual for the split linkage test.
Jim

[ja17]

Remember fuel returning to the fuel tank is critical for hot starts. The fuel return line of the injection pump is where the check valve or special fitting is located.  It most allow fuel to return to the tank. You can remove the gas cap and blow some air in the return line up front and listen for air bubbling in the gas tank.

[toneypenna]

Remember fuel returning to the fuel tank is critical for hot starts. The fuel return line of the injection pump is where the check valve or special fitting is located.  It most allow fuel to return to the tank. You can remove the gas cap and blow some air in the return line up front and listen for air bubbling in the gas tank.

Joe

Haven't had any luck finding  the split linkage test in the tech manual, can you point me in the right direction?
It seems not only can't I correct this starting ptoblem, I can't even locate  testing procedures in the manual.
I suppose this frustration shall pass.

Jim

.

[rwmastel]

I believe a link to the video in the below thread is in that same part of the Tech Manual.  It's good to see video & hear sound as it is being explained.  A good separate text write up is also helpful, but I'm also having difficulty finding it.  I know it exists.

https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=29836

[toneypenna]

I believe a link to the video in the below thread is in that same part of the Tech Manual.  It's good to see video & hear sound as it is being explained.  A good separate text write up is also helpful, but I'm also having difficulty finding it.  I know it exists.

https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=29836

Rodd,

Thank you so much for that U Tube link, After some of these tests are explained to me it"s basic automotive stuff that I can't come up with. That's what makes this forum an invaluable source of knowledge. I'll be doing that test today.

Again thank you,

Jim

[ctaylor738]

Jim,

I believe you can go to full manual control of the starting aids as follows:

- disconnect the pink wire from the thermo-time switch
- extend the wire to reach where you want to mount the switch
- connect the wire to one side of a "momentary" switch of your choice
- connect the other side of the switch to ground
- mount the switch

I recommend you mount the switch to the left of the steering column so you can operate the ignition switch with your right hand and the new switch with your left.

Cheers,

CT

[toneypenna]

Jim,

I believe you can go to full manual control of the starting aids as follows:

- disconnect the pink wire from the thermo-time switch
- extend the wire to reach where you want to mount the switch
- connect the wire to one side of a "momentary" switch of your choice
- connect the other side of the switch to ground
- mount the switch

CT

Thank you for this, it's what I may have to do. Something I don't understand maybe you can enlighten me. If I disonnect the pink wire from the TTS, doesnt that in itself disable the TTS and by running the wire to a monentary switch, wouldn't that enable the TTS? Does this also effect the IPS. My object is to disable both these devices when hot so engins starts.

JIm

I recommend you mount the switch to the left of the steering column so you can operate the ignition switch with your right hand and the new switch with your left.

Cheers,

CT

[toneypenna]

Joe

As you suggested I blew air into the return line, heard air bubbles in the fuel tank, allthough initially there seemed to be some hesitation for the air to get through. The second time it was immediate.
Also did the split linkage test as you suggested. Engine sped up when I introduced additional air at the throttle body. Tells me it's running rich. Shut the engine down,  Went to the click adjustment knob on the back of the pump and tried to lean it out by turning counter clockwise. It seems I have another problem here. Push the knob in and turn, doesn't engage, cant get it to give any definite clicks. Something is not right. Question, If I were to remove the large hex nut is it possible to inspect whats going on in there? Is this a simple thing or are there a lot of parts that I'm going to have to deal with? Would like to know what I'm getting into before I cause myself another problem.

Don't confuse the split linkage "test" with The Linkage "Tour". The split linkage test is a way to perform a basic fuel injection mixture test.

  I checked in the tech manual and couldn't info on this.

Thank You

Jim

[Pinder]

Jim

 when I first tried to adjust the Injection pump using the knob by pushing it in and turning, it was very difficult to do as it is very stiff to turn.  push it all the way in and move it left and right until you feel it slotting in. at that point it will feel like it went in a bit furth and when you try to move it left or right it wont easily move, then apply more pressure and it will move like a 1/4 turn.

Here is a great video that my help you to get a good understanding how the fuel / air mixture  changes or should change as the car warms up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6sxlOFmoYw&t=1569s

Regards

 Pinder

[ctaylor738]

Jim,

As I read the late 230sl wiring diagram, the thermo-time switch provides ground to the relays that control the pump solenoid and the cold start valve.  You would replacing that function with your new momentary switch.

CT

[toneypenna]

Jim

 when I first tried to adjust the Injection pump using the knob by pushing it in and turning, it was very difficult to do as it is very stiff to turn.  push it all the way in and move it left and right until you feel it slotting in. at that point it will feel like it went in a bit furth and when you try to move it left or right it wont easily move, then apply more pressure and it will move like a 1/4 turn.

Here is a great video that my help you to get a good understanding how the fuel / air mixture  changes or should change as the car warms up.p

Pinder,

Thanks for your input, great video.

My problem is the knob turns freely, no resistance, but when you push it in and turn it to engage in the slot  it doesn't, feels like isn't doing anything. If it were to engage it would go in a little farther, it doesn't. That's whats making me think something is wrong inside. I'm picturing a pin on the inside end of the knob that when you push it in it engages with a slot on a shaft. Without looking in there, it feels like the pin isn't there or os broken.

Jim
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6sxlOFmoYw&t=1569s

Regards

 Pinder

[toneypenna]

Jim,

As I read the late 230sl wiring diagram, the thermo-time switch provides ground to the relays that control the pump solenoid and the cold start valve.  You would replacing that function with your new momentary switch.

CT

CT

I should have thought about this like a rational adult before I answered your post. With what you are suggesting, I would be disabling both devices, the CSV and the IPS. Then the momentary switch would engage both when needed. This would help my problem, the two devices would be dormant during a hot start and could be engaged with the momentary switch when needed for a cold start.
I was not questioning you, just didn't full understand it until I gave some further thought.

Thank You for your input.

Jim

[rwmastel]

Tony,

Please don't reply within the quote.  Put your text below it.

"I'm picturing a pin on the inside end of the knob that when you push it in it engages with a slot on a shaft. Without looking in there, it feels like the pin isn't there or os broken."

Yes, you can think of it like you're operating a spring loaded flat head screw driver.
- push in against spring resistance
- turn to find the slot, seat the driver into the slot
- turn with some effort

[Pawel66]

https://www.sl113.org/wiki/Fuel/Injection#Pump

On the picture in our Technical Manual, the hex head screw in the middle, which is the idle (up to ca 1500rev/min) adjustment screw, is rotating between the two "leaf" springs on top and at the bottom of the screw head. This is where the clicks come from and it is also the source of resistance when you turn this screw.

I do not have a picture of it (I am sure it is there somewhere on the Forum), but the screw with the knurled knob sticking out of the FIP, has a wide screwdriver-like tip. You need to push it in, turn slowly so that tip gets into slot in the hex head of the screw. Then you will feel much more resistance while attempting to turn it - because of the two leaf springs. But if attempt to turn the adjustment screw requires a lot of force - perhaps something got stuck there...

[toneypenna]

Tony,

Please don't reply within the quote.  Put your text below it.

"I'm picturing a pin on the inside end of the knob that when you push it in it engages with a slot on a shaft. Without looking in there, it feels like the pin isn't there or os broken."

Yes, you can think of it like you're operating a spring loaded flat head screw driver.
- push in against spring resistance
- turn to find the slot, seat the driver into the slot
- turn with some effort

Rodd,

Sorry about that, didn't intentionally reply within the quote,  didn't notice until it was posted and then didn't know how to fix it. I'll watch more carefully in the future.

Haven't had time to address my problems with  the car, Holiday obligations took precedent, will get back to it and post my findings.

Thanks,

Jim

[ja17]

Make sure the engine is warmed up before adjusting the IP. Cold running adjustments are different. Remember the thumb screw on the back of the IP just regulates mixture up to around 1500 rpms. for a warm engine. Turning the thumb screw clockwise (sitting in the drivers seat looking forward), RICHENS the mixture in the up to 1500 rpm range.

[toneypenna]

Make sure the engine is warmed up before adjusting the IP. Cold running adjustments are different. Remember the thumb screw on the back of the IP just regulates mixture up to around 1500 rpms. for a warm engine. Turning the thumb screw clockwise (sitting in the drivers seat looking forward), RICHENS the mixture in the up to 1500 rpm range.

Joe

Thanks for the tip. With the Holidays and playing catch up with the lost time, I haven't had much time to delve into my problems with the car. I should be getting back to it this week. Will post my findings

Jim

[toneypenna]

Been away for a while , and thought I would close out this thread by letting everyone know thanks to all of you, my problems have been resolved. Regarding the click adjustment that I couldn't turn, I took off the cover, put a screwdriver on it and turned it one click back and forth, evidently it was stuck. Put the cover back on and using the split linkage test, I was able to adjust and get an acceptable idle.
Regarding the hot start problem, I disconnected the ground side of TTS switch and wired a momentary switch to control it manually as suggested and that solved the hot start problem. Another problem I had that i never posted was an intermittent brake hang up. Booster and Master had been replaced for vacuum and fluid leaking problems. Found the RF Caliper hanging up, replaced that, but still had the same problem.Finally found the brake kinkage pivot below the booster was sticking. Took it all apart cleaned and lubricated that and problem was solved.
Without going into a long story as to why, I'm going to be sending this car to my Nephew in California, If anyone can recommend a reputable shop to service / repair this car when needed, It would be greatly appreciated. This 64 230 SL will be living in the Malibu,Thousand Oaks, Agoura Hills,Calabasas area.
Again, thank you all for sharing your knowledge and expertise.
 I will also be posting my request for a shop recommendation on the discussion board

[rwmastel]

Regarding the hot start problem, I disconnected the ground side of TTS switch and wired a momentary switch to control it manually as suggested and that solved the hot start problem.

Well, not solved I would say.  It's a work around.  Maybe getting the TTS system replaced or repaired would be a good first task for your nephew.

[ctaylor738]

Jim,

Way to hang in there!

CT

[toneypenna]

Well, not solved I would say.  It's a work around.  Maybe getting the TTS system replaced or repaired would be a good first task for your nephew.

Yes, I agree, I would have liked to have had it working properly. I changed the TTS twice, first one was defective. My problem as outlined in my posts was car started fine on initial start when cold, would not start when at operating temperature unless I disconnected the CSV and IPS relays, then it started fine. I searched the tech manual and the forum, plus the many  reply's to my posts by members and this was the only fix or work around I could come up with. Thank you for your input.

Jim

[stickandrudderman]

Something often overlooked is whether the cold start device is functioning properly; that is does it add air for fast idle when cold and does that air reduce as the engine warms up.
If it's stuck you can be chasing starting problems until the cows come home.