Author Topic: 4 Speed gear box removal reseal and anything else needing replacement  (Read 5244 times)

Pinder

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Hi everyone. I have not posted much recently with life stuff needing taking care of but I am at the point I want to tackle a leak on my manual gearbox. I’ve read through volume 3 1 and 2 in pagoda notes. I’ll be doing this work on my own. On jackstands .  My primary concern is to fix the leak. I plan to order the seal kit from authentic classics but if there is a better source worth considering please advise.

While the gearbox is out I plan to clean up the transmission tunnel and  the gearbox. Any advice on color code to use to paint gearbox and where to purchase would be really appreciated. I asked my daughter to make some videos who is off school for the summer I’ve enlisted her help in documenting the process / journey.

Any advice tips and tricks would also be appreciated. 

Best regards Pinder
« Last Edit: July 23, 2024, 01:12:43 by Pinder »
1970 280 SL Light Ivory DB 670. 4 Speed manual shift no AC Limited Slip Diff.

ja17

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Every seal is a different and a unique challenge. The front seal is in the clutch throw-out tube and difficult to remove. A special tool is required to install the new one. I found a hole saw the right size and made the tool by grinding the teeth flat before using it to press the seal in the throw-out tube. You'll need to remove the front cover to do this. Remember all the bolts holding the front and rear cover on are threaded all the way into the gear box. they will leak fluid unless you carefully clean the threads and bolts and use a sealing compound on the threads. The rear seal is more difficult since you will have to remove the rear out-put flange. To do this the slotted nut must be removed. A special "pins socket" factory tool is used on the slotted nut. If your handy with a little grinder or cut-off tool you might be able to make one from the rights size socket. You will need to uncrimp the lock ring around the slotted nut before you can even get the socket in place. think about getting a new lock ring for re-assembly. The torque spec for the slotted nut is 87 ft/lbs and can be difficult to remove unless it has worked it's way loose over the years. There is a special factory tool for holding the output shaft flange from turning when your loosening or tightening the slotted nut. With a little imagination, you may figure out another way to hold the flange to loosen and tighten the slotted nut. Once the slotted nut and flange are removed the rear cover can be removed. Remember to seal the bolt threads before re-assembly. The rear cover holds the transmission rear seal and the speedometer cable drive seal. There is also a paper gasket to replace for the rear cover. I always use some sealer or gasket shellac on the paper gasket since I am sealing the bolt threads also. Once the rear cover is off, the rear seal can easily be changed by pressing or tapping it in place,
 using the correct sleeve/ socket or what-have-you. The small seal for the speedometer drive is extremely difficult to remove and can be tricky to install. The small drive gear for the speedometer cable is pressed on its shaft and the shaft must be driven or pressed out before you can install the new seal. The old seal is almost impossible to removed. I suspect a special seal puller is used normally. I made mine by modifying an off-the-shelf internal puller with long slender legs. You cannot get behind the seal with anything to drive it out. If you had exactly the correct size reamer, you might be able to machine it out. Be sure to install the new seal in the correct direction (spring end first). You must drive or press the speedometer drive shaft in exactly the correct distance as previously installed when the seal has been replaced. There is a very serious hidden danger when the slotted nut and output flange have been removed. You must avoid rotating or disturbing the transmission. The slotted nut keeps the internal gears, keys and synchronizers in place. When removed the internals can shift causing a miss alignment with a shaft key. Shifting problems will result. Of course, a special factory tool is used to prevent this also. You can make a sleeve out of some PVC pipe to keep the gear cluster tight while your working on the rear cover assembly. Simply use the slotted nut and the correct diameter and length section of tube to hold the gear cluster snug. The seal in the top shift cover is a different challenge. You have to disassemble all the forks, rods, springs, balls and spacer sleeves in the cover to get to the seal. There are some special nuts to unfasten which are deformed when installed and should not be used again. Be careful or you will have tiny springs and balls flying everywhere. Every fork and spacer must be returned to it's exact location during re-assembly. Considering the degree of difficulty, you might opt not to change this seal. It is at the extreme upper part of the transmission, far above the fluid level and not subjected to much splash. It never seems to be a source of leakage. If you decide to go ahead, stay in touch and do your research!
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

Pinder

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Thanks Joe for a very detailed guide. I will read it carefully as I proceed.

  The slotted nut had worked loose, and I had tightened it but I’m pretty sure I should be able to get it off. I do plan to make a socket for it.

Regards

 Pinder
« Last Edit: September 27, 2024, 14:53:47 by Pinder »
1970 280 SL Light Ivory DB 670. 4 Speed manual shift no AC Limited Slip Diff.

Pinder

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I have removed the gearbox but need to disconnect the round plug that looks to be an electrical connection . Should this plug out or do I need to remove the nut behind it. Please see picture.

Thanks Pinder
1970 280 SL Light Ivory DB 670. 4 Speed manual shift no AC Limited Slip Diff.

Pinder

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I have removed it and put it on a stand . First thing I will do is to clean up 50 + years of dirt and grease. It seems like transmission fluid dissolves grease

I had to remove the starter motor too. I was able to do all of the unbolting from under the car with various extensions . I did not have to remove any access plates on the tunnel.
1970 280 SL Light Ivory DB 670. 4 Speed manual shift no AC Limited Slip Diff.

Pinder

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What would be a good gasket sealer to use? i plan to use it for the paper gaskets.
1970 280 SL Light Ivory DB 670. 4 Speed manual shift no AC Limited Slip Diff.

Pinder

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I think the input shaft has a lot of play laterally and in and out. Where is a could place to get the front bearing . Maybe that will help with end play?

Regards

Pinder
1970 280 SL Light Ivory DB 670. 4 Speed manual shift no AC Limited Slip Diff.

Pinder

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Top view with top cover removed
1970 280 SL Light Ivory DB 670. 4 Speed manual shift no AC Limited Slip Diff.

707dieseldean

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 When you remove the Bellhousing , you will find shims to set up preload on the front bearing.
I would use a product like 'Indian head shellac' for the paper gaskets. 
69 280SL / Manual 4 speed
 904 - Lower Midnight Blue
 158 - Upper White/Grey
 145- Vellum Interior

Pinder

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Thank you . I was looking at using shellac because I was thinking if I used anything too thick it may interfere spacing.
1970 280 SL Light Ivory DB 670. 4 Speed manual shift no AC Limited Slip Diff.

Kevkeller

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Joe,
Thank you for the detailed explanation. I always wondered how you’d get the seal from the shifter shaft out.

I’ve got my transmission out and need to do the seals. Great explanation.

Kevin
1970 280 SL

Leester

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Joe's reply above speaks to the slotted nut and also an internal nut (i think) that holds the speedo drive in place. I have no first hand knowledge of what holds the speedo drive in place, but when I had my speed rebuilt recently (Palo Alto) they were very specific that rebulding the speedo would not cure its bouncing if the problem was whatever holds the speedo drive (inside the transmission) in place.

Maybe someone who has been inside the transmission can elaborate, or maybe Joe's reply above covers it. but clearly the time to ensure that matter does not become an issue is before you reinstall.
Lee Backus
1963 220SE Cabriolet
1970 280SL (reassembling - hopefully soon)
1978 450SL (disassembled for paint)
1985 500SEC

Pinder

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I have not gotten to the removal and install of the seal for the Speedo. I’ve found on prior post a way to pull the seal out using an expanding bolt .

So far I have the bell housing off and have removed the input shaft seal. The seal kit I ordered had the input shaft seal missing so now I’m waiting for that to arrive.

I am also looking for where to get new bearings for input shaft and output shaft.

I found what I think is the correct one at pelican parts. I figure if it’s not overall expensive that I’d replace with new even though I do not know if my existing bearing is ok or not.

Looking forward to getting back to working on it when I get back from being out of town.

Pinder
1970 280 SL Light Ivory DB 670. 4 Speed manual shift no AC Limited Slip Diff.

ja17

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Leester, the brass gear which drives the speedometer is not keyed to the output shaft. It depends on a tight gear cluster to turn. If the slotted nut comes loose the gear cluster loosens and the brass speedometer drive gear, on the output shaft (not keyed) becomes loose and slips or stops spinning altogether.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

Pinder

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im at the point where I am trying to press out the speedo drive shaft from the rear cover. it is not moving at all. I want to confirm if it should be pressed out from the small cover cap side or from the side where the speedo cable is inserted? Ive been doing it from where the small cap is removed from.

Regards

 Pinder
1970 280 SL Light Ivory DB 670. 4 Speed manual shift no AC Limited Slip Diff.

ja17

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Probably best to push it from the cap side and out the speedo cable side. Try heating the gear with a small butane or propane torch. Be careful not to use too much heat or you can damage the aluminum casting.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

Benz Dr.

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Pry the small cap out and drive the shaft out using a punch. They don't move easily because it's an interference fit. Follow Joe's advice  and use a bit of sealer around the cap as you install it. Shaft seal is installed before you replace the shaft.

Done right, it won't leak and will work well for years.
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

Pinder

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Thank you for that. I have managed to shift it. About half way there. I used a propane torch and warmed up the gear.

Regards

 Pinder
1970 280 SL Light Ivory DB 670. 4 Speed manual shift no AC Limited Slip Diff.

Pinder

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I’ve managed to get the shaft out and also clean up the housing  glass bead blast. What a messy job that is.

Thanks to Joe and Dan for your valuable advice.

As advised with your expertise. I used an 1:4 inch extension and beat it out with some gentle  heat from a propane touch warming it up a little .

Tomorrow I’ll be that lost soul at Home Depot looking for the right expansion bolt to extract the seal out…

Regards


 Pinder
1970 280 SL Light Ivory DB 670. 4 Speed manual shift no AC Limited Slip Diff.

Pinder

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The back side
1970 280 SL Light Ivory DB 670. 4 Speed manual shift no AC Limited Slip Diff.

Pinder

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The expanding bolt idea did not work for me. it would not hold (more likely I was afraid to over tighten, Instead I used a bolt of approx. 1/2 inch shaft diameter and threaded it onto the seal and then beat from the cap end with some considerable force and it came out that way. I suspect the speedo cable side has been tightened a little too much  in the past and closed the hole tad bit .
« Last Edit: August 14, 2024, 20:13:36 by Pinder »
1970 280 SL Light Ivory DB 670. 4 Speed manual shift no AC Limited Slip Diff.

Pinder

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Picture of bolt and dimensions show here. The seal is still attached to the bolt. New seal is next to it .
1970 280 SL Light Ivory DB 670. 4 Speed manual shift no AC Limited Slip Diff.

Benz Dr.

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I've been told that an internal slide puller will remove the seal.

 I drilled all of the plastic out on the seal which leaves a small metal ring. Using a cape chisel I was able to collapse the ring and then fish it out after.

Interesting how the seal is installed. There's an actual cavity behind the seal which leaves a void once it's installed. I imagine this is so that the seal will expand as the shaft is driven home. Clever bit of engineering there.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2024, 21:40:18 by Benz Dr. »
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

ja17

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Good idea Pinder. I'll try your method next time!
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

Pinder

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Im pretty sure I had purchased that bolt from home depot. its the perfect size to thread into the seal.
1970 280 SL Light Ivory DB 670. 4 Speed manual shift no AC Limited Slip Diff.