Not dealing with PayPal anymore

[badali]

I tried to accept payment from a member here and it was a total pain in the butt and did not happen.  I have not used the account for a while and my bank account is no longer linked.  I had heated discussion with a service rep and decided to close the account.  Is there another way to have safe payment between members here when selling items out of the local area?

[Cees Klumper]

I think many people use Zelle or Venmo, I have used both and they work, generally speaking (although I have had challenges with Zelle).

I have often wondered why in the US there are such archaic payment systems, with even paper checks still in heavy use. In France, Switzerland and The Netherlands, countries I am familiar with, electronic payments are free, instantaneous and safe. In the US, if I want to buy or sell let's say a car or motorcycle, it's a major hassle to try and organize payment. It usually comes down to cash (which you have to go to the bank for, call ahead about to make sure they actually have it etc), or physically go with the buyer to their bank to watch them get a cashier's check that you then have to get into your account, with days waiting time to clear etc.

[Pinder]

I agree zelle or venmo work pretty well.

[mdsalemi]

I tried to accept payment from a member here and it was a total pain in the butt and did not happen.  I have not used the account for a while and my bank account is no longer linked.  I had heated discussion with a service rep and decided to close the account.  Is there another way to have safe payment between members here when selling items out of the local area?

I accept payments from my clients all the time, sometimes daily. The easiest one to use, in my eyes, is Zelle. Zelle is just a very simple "augmentation" to your bank account that lets you send money to others that can receive it. Clients go to their bank account on their phone, go to the tab "Send Money with Zelle", type in my phone number, and send me what they owe me. Couldn't get any easier. Zelle does NOT work outside the USA.

Venmo works easily too, but I dislike it. First, Venmo customer service will be the first to tell you it is FIRST a social media app, that has a cash movement feature. When you set that up it goes through all your contacts in your phone and then tells you all the things they are doing with their Venmo. I discovered this quite by accident when I was getting notices that a real estate agent I dealt with in Philadelphia about 6 years ago was buying drinks and movie tickets! Wait, what? Why do I need to know this? It took me a while to figure out how to turn on all the privacy stuff. So when someone pays you with Venmo, it goes into your Venmo "account" and you need to move it to your bank which takes 1-3 days--unless you pay a fee for "instant transfer". While I'm in the app moving money to the bank, I can see what some friends have done financially if they haven't "privatized" their Venmo settings. As they say, it's first a social media app and these twenty-somethings don't seem to care that the world knows they paid back their boyfriend for their Starbucks order this morning. Seriously. It's that stupid.

Although Zelle lets you send money to others for free (no fees), it does not work internationally, so you cannot transfer money abroad. To register to use Zelle, you need to have a U.S. mobile number. The app also only supports money transfers between U.S.-based bank accounts. Doesn't work with every bank. Zelle doesn’t work for international payments, which is also the case for Venmo and Cash App. If in the Venmo app, a client sends me money and that money is for a good or service (as opposed to a reimbursement) Venmo will take a commission. Another reason not to like it.

As most of you know, we use PayPal for most of the group's financial work in concert with our bank accounts. Since we have many members all over the world, it is still the only real viable option to take payments internationally with little fuss. However--there are occasions when havoc is wreaked. Our members in Singapore for example, cannot use PayPal to send money to non-profits. Doesn't make a lick of sense but that's the rule, so we have to figure out alternatives for them. We also have some members in the USA that are simply stymied for one reason or another with PayPal. Of all the memberships we process each year, generally one comes in by check because PayPal was wonky.

Last September when "settling all the accounts" for our team that produced the PagodaFest Chicago event, one of our team members was owed some money as he put deposits down on things. As your Treasurer, I promptly reimbursed him by PayPal, and then PayPal would not let him take that money out of his account. It was quite a job to sort it all out. Others on the team had no issues.

Cees, some of the issues have to do with 50 states and 50 sets of banking rules and coming up with policies and procedures that work everywhere and keep everyone happy. Not an easy task. The other set of issues is banks and governments think every banking transaction is somehow tied to illicit money laundering (and they think this is the root of all evil in the world) and they put in all kinds of rules and restrictions. At Chase bank, they'll scan my driver's license when making a cash deposit...and of course my picture is taken whether the deposit is made at an ATM or in person.

One very weird thing I ran into when buying the door for my Pagoda a few years ago, with the great assistance of our member and friend #StevenF from Long Island, is I was going to pay for the door (which was in New Jersey, but the owner in New York) by simply depositing cash into the seller's bank account; he used BofA and there was one right close to me. Well, who knew that Bank of America didn't allow a cash deposit to a bank account EXCEPT from the owner of the account? Had to get the seller's branch on the phone with my local branch, the manager's talked, and finally allowed it. The guy didn't take Zelle or Venmo...

If anyone ever comes up with a low fee alternative to PayPal that works internationally, please by all means let us know!

[badali]

I'm working out the old fashion solution.  Just a check in the mail.  This is easy as I'm not in a hurry...

[Peter van Es]

...
Cees, some of the issues have to do with 50 states and 50 sets of banking rules and coming up with policies and procedures that work everywhere and keep everyone happy. Not an easy task.
...

For the European Event, many Europeans just transferred money from countries all over Europe directly into my Dutch bank account using IBAN and BIC. Free of charge and fast.

Half the members paid me via PayPal. However, have to take into account the banking charges. No problems taking the money out of PayPal. I pre-paid various events bills using IBAN as well.

Badali... you'll have to deal with PayPal for your subscription fee payment to Pagoda SL Group as well!

Peter

[mdsalemi]

Oh, we Americans have no problem with these international transfers! NOT! From Forbes magazine:

“United States and Canada do not use IBAN, although both countries recognize the system and process IBAN payments when handling an international transaction using IBAN.”

So the USA banks will sometimes use SWIFT: (also from Forbes)

…SWIFT is more like a messaging system that banks use to communicate transfers. If both the sending and receiving banks have a relationship with each other, the money will transfer immediately upon receipt of the SWIFT communication by the receiving bank. However, both banks will charge some kind of processing fee. Additionally, the receiving bank may also charge a foreign exchange fee…If the two banks do not have a direct commercial relationship with each other, SWIFT will still facilitate the transfer, but it will have to go through an intermediary bank (also known as a correspondent bank…more fees!)

It isn’t uncommon for a USA bank to charge anywhere from $10-$50 per transaction to initiate or receive any kind of wire transfer no matter what service is used… When I’ve done this in the past, it’s also never instant, though it’s supposed to be…the money sits in limbo for a few days. The American receiving bank will get a notification of the transfer, but not the actual money.

Zelle has definitely leveled the playing field for transactions within the United States. I just wish there was something like it that included the rest of the world that we Americans could use!

For Cees’ observation Zelle is a perfectly safe and logical way to pay for a car you may be buying. The problem is sellers won’t trust it and they want the cash.

[Jordan]

Brad, do you not have e-transfers in the US?  When I sold some parts and the person lived in Canada, they just sent an e-transfer.  Shows up in your account the same day.  No cost but it has a $3K limit per day when sending.  No limit on receiving.

[mdsalemi]

Brad, do you not have e-transfers in the US?  When I sold some parts and the person lived in Canada, they just sent an e-transfer.  Shows up in your account the same day.  No cost but it has a $3K limit per day when sending.  No limit on receiving.

Marcus, I think that's a Canada only thing. The equivalent in the USA is Zelle.

Many Americans pay bills through the use of ACH (automated clearing house) transfers. These are basically checks without paper. However it can be fraught with troubles. Over at the Mercedes-Benz Club of America, the former Executive Director and office staff, a few years back, weren't "minding the store" so to speak, and hundreds of thousands of dollars was spuriously transferred OUT of their accounts to [this is almost comical] African banks. I think working with the FBI and others, they recovered most of the stolen money...

...but it was after I learned about this that I instituted (as your treasurer) "Treasury Management" on our group's accounts. This means every transfer out needs to get an approval after initiated. So, if some African bank were to attempt to steal our funds, I'd get a message and deny the transaction.

[MikeSimon]

I have to maintain bank accounts both in the US and overseas. I can confirm, that the US banking system is antiquated and needs to catch up with - at least - Europe. I transfer money back and forth all the time and while it is a breeze to transfer money (via online systems) from Europe to my accounts here, the other way around is a hassle. One of my banks in the US, a local S&L can receive wire transfers, but I cannot send any. The other bank can do both. They both charge for the transactions. The Europeans do too but it is mainly because of the currency exchange. If I wire money inside Europe to one of my family members it is free. And the system they have set up (called TAN process) is very secure and uses individual code numbers for each transaction that are assigned through a separate channel.

[mdsalemi]

From ChatGPT AI:

European banking is often considered more advanced than that of the USA due to several factors:

1. **Regulatory Framework**: Europe has a more unified regulatory approach, particularly with the European Central Bank and the Banking Union, which fosters stability and consistency across member states.

2. **Digital Banking Adoption**: European banks have been quicker to adopt fintech innovations and digital banking solutions, leading to a more integrated and user-friendly experience for consumers.

3. **Consumer Protection**: European regulations tend to prioritize consumer protection, resulting in more transparent banking practices and stronger rights for consumers.

4. **Payment Systems**: The SEPA (Single Euro Payments Area) initiative has streamlined cross-border payments within Europe, making transactions faster and cheaper compared to the fragmented systems in the U.S.

5. **Market Structure**: European banks often have a broader focus on retail banking, with services tailored to consumers, whereas U.S. banks may prioritize investment banking.

These elements contribute to a banking landscape in Europe that can seem more advanced or integrated compared to that of the United States.

[neelyrc]

….and at a much greater cost to the average consumer.  My account in USA is basically free including bill pay feature, even pays some very minor interest and reimburses ATM fees from other banks including overseas banks.  International wire transfers and some less used features do carry strong fees.

Everything I do in my Italian current account has a fee attached. Interest? - unheard of! These fees easily exceed €100 per year.

[MikeSimon]

….and at a much greater cost to the average consumer.  My account in USA is basically free including bill pay feature, even pays some very minor interest and reimburses ATM fees from other banks including overseas banks.  International wire transfers and some less used features do carry strong fees.

Everything I do in my Italian current account has a fee attached. Interest? - unheard of! These fees easily exceed €100 per year.

Maintaining a bank account is not cheap in Europe. My Euro account in Germany costs about $35.- per quarter. As far as wire transfer fees to the US are concerned, with each transaction I can opt to have the fees charged to my sending account. After that I incur a $15.-  by my bank in the U.S.