Author Topic: Opinions - Pagoda VS 911  (Read 1453 times)

john.mancini

  • Full Member
  • Gold
  • *****
  • USA, FL, Nokomis
  • Posts: 652
Re: Opinions - Pagoda VS 911
« Reply #25 on: October 31, 2024, 12:23:32 »
Porsche 997’s, especially the 997.2’s, are “The” Porsches to buy right now. They are on the verge of a healthy price increase. Rightly so, as they are great cars. I believe Singer is buying up 997 coupes for their conversions as the 964’s are becoming harder to find. For those not familiar with Singer, they modify 964 Porsches and convert them into million dollar, highly sought after, beautiful cars.
John
65 230SL 519 Red 4-sp
98 911 cab
56 Ford F100
08 Porsche RS60 Spyder
23 Z4M40i

mdsalemi

  • Pagoda SL Board
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, NC, Davidson
  • Posts: 7059
Re: Opinions - Pagoda VS 911
« Reply #26 on: October 31, 2024, 12:40:41 »
The age-old 'is my cars a sports car' debate has been had on many an automotive forum...
I think it's just a marketing term, and that means whatever the marketer wants it to mean.

Right, marketing term. But the "sports cars" of the 60s, the MGBs, the Austin-Healeys, etc. all had some kind of race history at least with owners, (maybe not factory) and were seen at the races. Not that the Pagoda was never raced (Peter Lesler, former member here had a race prepared Pagoda, complete with fuel cell, etc.) but it wasn't common.

BMC had their special tuning department, and owners could, on the cheap, prepare their MGs for racing. Larger carbs, suspension changes, etc. You could get factory upgrades to the A and B series engines. In the 1970s, we had a '66 Cooper S. Sports sedan. Came with a Weber carb, changed it to big-a** SUs. Changed the valve train to forged rockers when we bent the pressed steel ones. Added a straight cut, close ratio gear box. So many other little changes, and many "sports cars" had these options available for them. Don't know much about Jags but I believe they were raced quite a bit, too, and had the bits to help the process...and Porsche? Yes, of course. Pick up a copy of Panorama magazine (from PCA) and you'll see DOZENS of suppliers of all kinds of upgrades and "go fast" things for all Porsches. Pagoda? Um, no. Never had, and never will.

Most Pagoda owners, I would offer, didn't buy a Pagoda to get involved in this world. My uncle, an electrical engineer, the PO of my car, was exactly the kind of buyer they sought out. One with means (Pagoda quite costly compared to other cars at the time); appreciation of the engineering (look at that fuel injection!) and the class of a Mercedes which at the time, was very distinctive. All MB cars were kind of very exclusive in the 60s. My uncle had his as a daily driver during the week, and on weekends it took him to the yacht club. You couldn't write a better story.

What my uncle didn't do, is drive the twists and turns of country roads at speed, or race the engine at a stoplight while glancing over at the guy in the Jag or MG or Corvette.
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid
2024 Ford Mustang Mach Ex PEV

thelews

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, WI, Mequon
  • Posts: 1955
Re: Opinions - Pagoda VS 911
« Reply #27 on: October 31, 2024, 14:09:29 »
60 year old cars are 60 year old cars.   Wives, crotchety old guys, trying to judge them by modern standards is a fool's errand.  The technology and comfort of a 60 year old car (even the very best of them in the day) will never match up to even entry level modern cars.
Enjoy some pictures at this link:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8292359@N06/sets/72157603240571101/show/

John - Wisconsin
1967 Early 250 SL Red/Caviar, Manual #1543
1961 190 SL 23K miles
1964 Porsche 356
1970 Porsche 911E
1991 BMW 318is
1966 Jaguar XKE
1971 Alfa Romeo GTV 1750

MikeSimon

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, OH, North Royalton
  • Posts: 2477
Re: Opinions - Pagoda VS 911
« Reply #28 on: October 31, 2024, 18:48:59 »
, and you are buying American.

Sorry, but what does that have to do with anything?

BTW I bought a new C8 in 2022, drove it for 60 miles and sold it again for a profit. Prices are currently dropping for these things. In 30 years your Corvette will be worth 20% of what it was in 2024, and the Porsche will have likely held its price.
1970/71 280SL Automatic
Sandy Beige
Parchment Leather
Power Steering
Automatic
Hardtop
Heated Tinted Rear Window
German specs
3rd owner

MikeSimon

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, OH, North Royalton
  • Posts: 2477
Re: Opinions - Pagoda VS 911
« Reply #29 on: October 31, 2024, 22:26:36 »
Of course, if you look at the contemporary reviews and tests by the "experts", you can find some of the comparisons for the Pagoda.
Autocar in March of 1963 compared the 230SL with the Lancia Fulvia. Two totally different cars and the only reason they did the comparo was, they were both new models shown at the Geneva Motor Show.
Motor Did a 230SL Automatic road test in 1965 and the performance was compared to the Fiat 2300S, Aston Martin DB5, Jaguar XKE 4.2 Jensen CV-8 and Alfa Romeo Giulia SS
Car Did a one-on-one comparison in December 1965 between the Fiat 2300S and 230SL
Sports Car World In December 1967 calls the SL an "expensive cruiser" and makes it part of the "America's Cup Crowd".
Motor In September 1968 tests the 280SL as part of "Extravagant Two-Seaters: among the Triumph TR5, Lotus Elan S4, Marcos 1600, Jaguar XKE and the AC428.
The finally Road&Track in June 1969 tests "Four Luxury GTs" 280SL, Corvette, Jaguar XKE and Porsche 911T. Prices as tested were $6392, $6495 and $6418 for the three "competitors and a whopping $7833.- for the SL.

So, it is obvious that it has always been difficult to put the Pagoda in a group of "peers" as the car did not really compare with anything else as apples to apples.

When I bought mine in 1982, I did not look for a "sports car". I wanted a nice open-top cruiser to take on a leisurely outing on a Sunday in the Rhine valley and something that had a decent original quality as a used car and would also hold its value to an extend. The choices I considered back then were Triumph TR6, Jaguar XKE and Fiat Dino. The prices of available cars helped me to narrow it down.
1970/71 280SL Automatic
Sandy Beige
Parchment Leather
Power Steering
Automatic
Hardtop
Heated Tinted Rear Window
German specs
3rd owner

Jack the Knife

  • Full Member
  • Silver
  • ****
  • USA, FL, Vero Beach
  • Posts: 335
Re: Opinions - Pagoda VS 911
« Reply #30 on: October 31, 2024, 23:09:38 »
Right, marketing term. But the "sports cars" of the 60s, the MGBs, the Austin-Healeys, etc. all had some kind of race history at least with owners, (maybe not factory) and were seen at the races. Not that the Pagoda was never raced (Peter Lesler, former member here had a race prepared Pagoda, complete with fuel cell, etc.) but it wasn't common.

Just as it wasn't so common for people to race R129s in their era (though very powerful variants were surely made!), or for most G-wagen owners to use them for their true capabilities (at least not until they got 'cheap enough' to do so, for some people) ... I mean, isn't this just the way of things? If a manufacturer made it easy to modify their vehicles and they depreciated well enough to be considered disposable for racing, then such a car was often raced. Or if someone championed that car. It's funny, Mercedes has this tendency to release a cool vehicle and soften it with time.. I guess that's why they'd remained in business so long, not alienating their core demographic (until recently, that is). The G has a plastic bumper now, and though, sure, it still has locking diffs and whatnot, it's really just a GLS with off-roading pretensions that cosplays the old one. But that's what the people wanted. And I believe it, having known many of them when I lived in Miami.. the other core demographic in LA is no different. But you're right, it was never common to really modify these cars, and most modifications look goofy since it was never really professionals making something specifically for our cars...

Around my parts, people around used to call the Pagodas (and the 107s mostly) the "JI Jeep," that is, John's Island Jeep. It's a neighborhood here with a lot of people in that target demographic. And they'd "go anywhere, do anything" in their car. You'd see them everywhere. And I guess they're pretty good at most everything they do, and in such a small and high quality package, I guess there was really almost no competition. I can't think of anything *exactly* cross shopped with the 113. I suppose I could see someone cross shopping a base 911 Targa (not the s), depending on if they wanted a little more lux or a little more sporty, though there was no comparison at the top end of the Porsche stable in any year, no doubt.

Of course, if you look at the contemporary reviews and tests by the "experts", you can find some of the comparisons for the Pagoda.
Autocar in March of 1963 compared the 230SL with the Lancia Fulvia. Two totally different cars and the only reason they did the comparo was, they were both new models shown at the Geneva Motor Show.
Motor Did a 230SL Automatic road test in 1965 and the performance was compared to the Fiat 2300S, Aston Martin DB5, Jaguar XKE 4.2 Jensen CV-8 and Alfa Romeo Giulia SS
Car Did a one-on-one comparison in December 1965 between the Fiat 2300S and 230SL
Sports Car World In December 1967 calls the SL an "expensive cruiser" and makes it part of the "America's Cup Crowd".
Motor In September 1968 tests the 280SL as part of "Extravagant Two-Seaters: among the Triumph TR5, Lotus Elan S4, Marcos 1600, Jaguar XKE and the AC428.
The finally Road&Track in June 1969 tests "Four Luxury GTs" 280SL, Corvette, Jaguar XKE and Porsche 911T. Prices as tested were $6392, $6495 and $6418 for the three "competitors and a whopping $7833.- for the SL.

So, it is obvious that it has always been difficult to put the Pagoda in a group of "peers" as the car did not really compare with anything else as apples to apples.

I think it was always hard to make apples-to-apples comparisons between any of the "really good" cars of the time, since they all were somewhere far from their "peers" on the Venn diagram of performance, comfort, and quality. Excelling in any typically adding up to a big ticket. Imagine if the XKE had a significantly nicer interior... they might've been in Ferrari or Aston Martin territory price wise and they might not have sold so many of them. Same for the SL. If there had been some very high performance trim (which had been spit-balled at least according to Bracq's drawings of the "300 SLX" that are floating about), then again, they'd be competing with Ferrari and Aston Martin of the time... Mercedes to this day has been trying to compete against Porsche in the sports car space, and the AMG GT alienated a lot of the core Mercedes customer, with the number one complaint I ever heard being that it was just too harsh riding. I was interested in buying a GTC and found that to be true, myself. The newest "AMG GT" is debased, much softer, more of a modern "SLC" but much more svelte. I looked at one, nice car... but as an aside, I feel the AMG GT will appreciate, since that seems to be the end of the line for that kind of car as far as MBZ is concerned. And again, it never really did so well against the 911 in the marketplace, and didn't hold its value nearly as well (I thought they were a bargain for a time for that reason). And the first year had some issues, too, but Porsche has had those times as well... rambling here but I think in this day and age manufacturers are trying to make a "sports car" (really just performance GT cars for stoplight-to-stoplight and maybe canyon carving in style and luxury) that is all things to all people, when they all used to have their own niche and mostly distinctive styling.
1964 230SL
2015 G550

Peter h

  • Full Member
  • Silver
  • ****
  • Germany, Rheinland-Pfalz, Enkirch
  • Posts: 450
Re: Opinions - Pagoda VS 911
« Reply #31 on: November 01, 2024, 04:06:01 »
https://youtu.be/Hd9ZUd0XC_U?si=SD2_sEZ3Xs95wDvj

nice film from the 70s. Pagoda against Porsche (356).
My wife loves our pagodas and looks forward to every trip. I agree with her......
Peter
08.68 280sl automatic white 717 G  blue MB Tex
09.68 280sl  4-speed, now 5-speed Getrag 180 G dark green MB Tex

JamesL

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • United Kingdom, London, London
  • Posts: 3610
Re: Opinions - Pagoda VS 911
« Reply #32 on: November 01, 2024, 08:12:52 »
Smokin'!
James L
Oct69 RHD 280 in DB906 with cognac leather