HELP...To Buy or Not??? 1964 230SL

[n/a]

Hello everyone! 1st- Thanks for all the info you all are sharing here. Very Helpful.

I am in the process of negotiating purchase of a 1964 230 SL. euro lights, working radio, all electrical works, speedometer and gas needle are "bouncy", chrome is awesome,  everything else is very pretty. LOTS of work completed...Lots of Receipts over last 10 years...

-Off Frame Paint, not orig. but very nice.
-New Interior, not orig. very nice
-Mechanically solid, i have no issues here...
-Hard top is ok, 6 or a 7 out of 10
-Soft Top needs to be replaced - Frame is fine.

here's the biggie...

I know what you say about rust...Check out the pics and tell me what you think, Rust was found 5 years ago when acquired from father...Car is garaged, and never driven in rain. Owner has seen no progression in amount since 1st noticed. The pic w/ the thumb is under front left fender, the other is underneath. Any thoughts?
I am planning on personally inspecting along with a pro to determine if there are any other areas looking scary. Unless you all talk me out of it 1st.
Any idea what kind of cost to fix a prob like this...assuming i find no other issues?

list price is $16k-

ANY HELP IS GREATLY APPRECIATED!

Steven.

Some pics here... http://briefcase.yahoo.com/jsrjr01

[JOS]

Steve,
If the car is in Atlanta, before I buy it, I would try to have the car inspected by Bud's Benz in Douglasville,35 minutes from downtown Atlanta.

John O. Salazar

[n/a]

Thanks, I am familiar with the shop...I live in the city so I am not too far...
Unfortunately, the car is not local, so i will be headed out of town to check it out. I figure a personal inspection along with a pro is worth the cost of a plane ride.
Do you know about any resources for finding a well-qualified mechanic/inspector who is familiar with these gems?

[n/a]

Maybe you can let us know where the car is located. A member might be nearby to help with the inspection.

Good Luck,

Louis 70 280sl Red Auto

[J. Huber]

Hi Steven.

I find your post interesting... especially since it could be a description of my car, were it for sale. Like this one, mine is cosmetically and mechanically good, well-taken care of, lots of work completed -- but -- I have rust underneath... Probably worse than this one. Selling it will be frustrating, as this factor will negate so much of the positive stuff about my car.

Here's what I'd do -- look at the extent of the rust carefully. For a long time, I thought I had just a little -- because that's all I could see. It is hidden very well. Once I started really digging, I realized it was worse than imagined. I have only treated it -- not repaired it... In my case, its probably a five figure repair. Maybe someday, maybe not.

NOW here is the controversial segment... Despite what they say, one can enjoy a Pagoda for a long time even if it has rust. I certainly  have.




James
63 230SL

[n/a]

What did you do to treat the problem?
Any idea on what a good measuring stick would be as to determining how much this takes away from overall value when determining price? Or are we just talking dollar for dollar...car's worth 22,000 if no rust, it will cost 6,000 to repair rust, so 16,000 for value???

[J. Huber]

Without boring the world with details, my treatment was fairly basic . Most areas I sanded, applied rust-converter, and top-coated with Rustoleum-type paint. Others, I was more creative. All bandaids, I assure you. Many on this site have done actual rust repair -- it is generally doable. Body parts are readily available its just the labor that gets very expensive.

As to how to figure rust into price -- thats a tough one. I'd say, it's between the individual buyer and seller. If the seller claims he's already "marked down" the price for rust, I'd be sure I knew the extent. I'll go out on a limb and say a car that is mechanically and cosmetically good (and complete) could be worth 12-15 even with some rust.

James
63 230SL

[n/a]

Thanks So far everyone...

Here's my trivia ? for the day...

What is the highest known price to ever be paid for a 230Sl? 250SL? 280SL?

And i'm not saying that i know the answer either!

STeve

[DaveB]

Hi Steve,
I remember reading that $200 000 + was reached at auction for an ex John Lennon 230sl. But of course that money was for the car's history, not the car itself.
As for a reasonable price for your prospective car I think J Huber is right on with an estimate of 12-15k max, depending on the severity of the rust. I think it would be better to look at that car as a driver than a potential restoration. You could find rougher-looking cars without rust that would probably be better restoration candidates for less money.
However there's something to be said for having a fun car that you can drive right now, instead of a rust-free but inoperable restoration project (like mine).

DaveB

[n/a]

You said it...
I am definitely looking for a driver...maybe it will get a full on restore one day, but for now we are here to drive.
My budget for purchase is around 18k. I could go higher, i just haven't seen one that overall warranted the extra dough.
This seller has been very honest and has stacks of history on the car.
Who knows i guess i'll find out if it's the right one very soon!

[Benz Dr.]

You know, I have a pretty decent 1970 280SL here that needs a new home. I went through all the mechanicals last year and the car has been stored here since then. Auto trans, AC, both tops. Somewhere around 15K would buy it.
Car is from southern Ohio.

Needs some fixing and paint but it a solid driving car otherwise

Dan Caron's
 SL Barn
benzbarn@ebtech.net
 slbarn.mbz.org

[ted280sl]

Steven,
  I believe body rust can be expected. If you are looking for a driver I would be more concerned about structural rust. Is there rust around the floor pans or trunk floor. Inspect these areas carefully. I also agree that taking a member on an inspection visit is a good idea. Buying a member lunch could even be a better idea.
Good luck,
Ted 69 280SL 4 speed No more visible rust

[n/a]

So who lives in Boston and wants to share a meal with a kid from Atlanta? I will be headed up sometime between Friday and Tuesday.
Heck, for that matter, I would much rather support the local SL lovers than the taxi men or car rental companies...
Any takers?
i 'll post a new topic on that one i guess!

[n/a]

Oh yeah...No rust in the trunk or floor pans...Only these two spots underneath...

[n/a]

I made it to Boston on Sunday to see for myself what this 230 SL might be hiding...

Thought I would see what kind of thoughts everyone has based on my new knowledge.
Details to follow in next reply (my connection is acting up)

But first let me say thanks to everyone who either posted here or contacted me to share a story or some advice and also to those that offered other help...
I am very grateful to know that if i listen, my chance of making a poor decision are slim!

So i spent nearly 3 hours with the car and its owner. One member from Boston even offered to come help me evaluate this car. Unfortunately, due 2 tech. difficulties, I didn't get to meet him. Maybe Monday?

Details next...

Steve From Atlanta
Out Hunting For My SL

[n/a]

So nearly 3 hours with this car on Sunday. The owner was most gracious to let me have all the time i needed to determine (to the best of my ability) the current state of this classic SL.

Here is what I found- And please let me know if you have any thoughts like other ?'s i need to ask, or things i may have overloked, and certainly how good or bad my findings are.

Engine- Very strong, no evidence of fluid leaks, not rebuilt, but certainly maintained very well based on performance. 8.5 out of 10

4-Spd Trans./Clutch- No problems at all. Very smooth, 9 out of 10-all redone in '02

Suspension- great thru the turns and around the traffic circles, felt very stable and strong. 9 out of 10 - al redone in '02

Guages/electronics/lights/accessories/etc.
All perfect and original or OEM.
Except for:
-Bounce in speedo and fuel level indicator.
-One light behind instruments

To Be Continued

Steve From Atlanta
Out Hunting For My SL

[n/a]

Part 4

Interior Cosmetics

Carpet and upholstery are near-perfect. Not original color scheme.
Wood Trim is good.
Kinder Seat and Parcel shelf is very good,     but missing seat belt.
Seat Belts were updated with 3-point           harnesses.
Mirrors are showing there age.
Overall very good looking interior.

EXTERIOR COSMETICS

Paint- Repainted different than orig. by 2nd owner to a yellow code? b4 1988, repainted again in 96 with Ivory. Yellow was not stripped. At least not 100%. In hidden spots you can see it at an edge This paint job is at the end of its life-span. Definitely needs complete stripping.

Chrome- lower trim strip on drivers door will not stay attached...May be due to rust at attachment points. Remaining pieces in ok to good shape. 6 out of 10. Several dings on bumpers front & rear.

Gaps between hood and deck lids not uniform.
-Led me 2 discovery of possible fender replacement up front.
Evidence of small accident front end, evdent by  poor repair and welding. At spot where fender mounts attach to front end.

TRUNK-
Original Tools and manuals/Brochures
No rust, w/ spare & jack, lid not closing very easily.

Hard Top
Headliner and wood good.
Seals/stripping, showing some wear. Do not know if top is original color.
Also shows two spots of either a poor paint job.

And Now The Fun Part...-See Page 3

RUST

Steve From Atlanta
Out Hunting For My SL

[n/a]

PART 5

RUST
Originally told that only two spots were known, took me 5 minutes and i had found a bit more. Mind you this is only me on the ground, no lift, so i haven't seen it all

Definately more than i was hoping for.

Drivers side floor at gas pedal. visible under carpet,
UnderCarriage- under driver and passenger seats- at same place on both sides. not a tiny spot.
frame rail on passenger side where it meets the floor panel.
under front end where the tow hook is (In the pics) the extent is a bit larger than owner imagined.
Where front bumper attaches to front end on pass. side.
also a few other small surface rust spots around the car- like under the lip below doors-

These findings were upsetting as i hoped with all my fingers and toes crossed that i wouldn't find any thing more than i was told about.
All this not even having been under with the car on a lift.

Definitely glad I saw it with my own 2 eyes.
So, should i just cut and run? Go ahead and get it to the shop for further evaluation so that i can get a pro's opinion re: scope of problem.

Steve From Atlanta
Out Hunting For My SL

[J. Huber]

Steve,

Here's my take: the amount of rust is not minimal. The rest of the car sounds attractive. And looking at the topside of the car, I can understand your excitement in owning it.

However, and this is critical -- our motto here is Buy the Best Pagoda You Can Afford. Think hard about that. Another should be What's your Goal? Are you looking at this, like "I'll repair all the problems on this car, and then I'll have a real nice Pagoda" ?? If so, you will spend twice (or more) what you pay for it to get even close. Or are you looking for a nice car to drive, flaws and all, that you can enjoy? If yes to this one, you need to offer a much lower price and see what happens... My two cents.

James
63 230SL

[enochbell]

I am with Jim on this one, maybe even a little more cynical about the prospects.  Looks like a nice driver but if you really get serious about making it nice the frustration will get you in more ways than you can imagine, beyond the wallet.  

Even in Atlanta, rust does not sleep.  The humidity here will provide more than enough encouragement for the car to continue to oxidize, albeit more slowly than elsewhere.  And even with the amount of major mechanical work that has been completed, just wait until you need to do something simple like replace a window regulator; unfreeze a heater cable; replace a suspension bushing.  All those parts an undoubtably been brought closer to that ugly fused state that only a northern car can enjoy.  

Get yourself a full set of easy outs, taps and dies, helicoils and liquid weld or forget the whole thing.

Just my 2 cents,

Greg

'64 230sl, fully sorted out...ooops, spoke too soon

[n/a]

Maybe I'm spoiled with the car selection out here in So. Calif. but I would think a relatively rust free one could be found for maybe $8K or so more than the one you're looking at Steve.

The difference in price is much less than what it would cost to get rid of the rust.

You might say I'm OK living with the rust but then consider that you would more than recoup the difference in price when you sell it, because the price of good ones are on the rise.

This reasoning lead me to wait several months before finding a 100% rust free car four years ago for $19K.  OK so the selection of good ones in So. Cal. isn?ft so good either.

Another point to consider is how long you want to keep it.  If it's an in and out get-it-out-of-my-system-and-move-on kind of thing then maybe a rusty car is OK (as long as it's safe to drive).

If you plan on keeping it longer invariably you will become attached to the car and want to spend more money on it, usually making it as original as possible (look at all the posts on this BBS LOL).

If the car is solid, rust and accident free you won't feel bad spending money on it because you will have an appreciating asset.  If the car has a lot of rust resale value will be limited making a rust free car a better choice for the long haul.

My recent experience on pricing:

* A rust free car with the good points of the one you're looking at would be $35-40K.  Becoming hard to find and increasing in value.
* Rust free needing some work would be around $25K.  Not as hard to find and also increasing in value.
* Perfect condition but less than concours $50K.  Increasing in value, somewhat hard to find.
* With rust that sounds extensive I'd offer maybe $12K for the subject car, if you really like it and want to use for a year or so as a driver.  Otherwise I'd pass.  

Plenty of these cars are always available and prices are not increasing as quickly as for the good ones.  Again OK if you want to keep for a year or so then change.  

[n/a]

Steve,
I tried again but for some reason could not open the photos so I'm not sure the car is worth even $12K.  

The uneven gaps between body panels is a bad sign for me, as you say the front fenders may have been replaced suggesting accident damage or maybe really heavy rust.  I definitely wouldn't pay $16K.

Pete

[TA250SL]

Try searching for Pagoda's at http://ww2.collectorcartraderonline.com/search.php

There should be others cars available in that price range without the rust issues.

Good luck!

Tom
1967 250SL
Los Angeles

[n/a]

I looked at the pics Steve and agree with the others that there is significant rust on the 230SL.  The undercoating looks thick in spots suggesting more rust you can't see under there.  And since you found just by looking underneath I wouldn't bid on it without a good mechanic in the area checking it out first, ideally someone recommended by this group.

If mechanic says that's it for rust and you can get for $12K might be a fun car to have for a year or so, you could re-sell it for close to your purchase price.  But if you will want to restore it or own a nicer Pagoda down the road I'd find one with less rust because then you won't feel like:
a) you're feeding a money pit or
b) you?fll have to sell this one and start looking all over again

These cars are just going to more expensive and scarce.

Tried Collector Trader.com and remembered why I hadn't looked there in a while... mostly dealer ads.

The dealer cars are premium priced and have had partial restorations.  I like having that work done myself, so I know that original parts and high quality materials were used and that an expert did the mechanical work.  Finding capable people willing to do restoration work for a reasonable price is a challenge these days, I should warn you!

You want to find a car like those for sale by the dealers in the $35 range for about $20 -  25K.  Then you will have something that will appreciate and can look forward to restoring some day.

I paid Alex Dearborn in Michigan to find me such a car because I couldn't find one on my own, and that was four years ago in So. Calif.  

For a modest fee compared to the typical mark ups he put me in touch with the owner of a car that had never been on the market.  He found out about it by contacting the mechanic that was maintaining it for the elderly owner.

Car was ?f69 280SL, one owner, 62K original miles, 4-speed, A/C, zero rust for $19K.  Was going to use as a driver but each area cleaned up so nicely that I went ahead and did other things like paint, engine compartment, new soft top.  Never felt badly about spending the money, it?fs worth what I have in it.

So think about how long you want to keep the SL.  If a long time I?fd go the Alex Dearborn route or be prepared to look several months to fit within your budget.  If you want to keep for just a year or two the 230SL might be a candidate, if it checks out from a mechanic and you can get for $12K.  Again the welded front fender is a bad sign for me.

[n/a]

Steve

My advice is Cut And Run.  Wait for a car that has no or at least minimal rust.  It is much easier to make mechanical repairs than to do paint and body work, especially rust repair.  Not to mention the amount of time the car is tied up doing the cosmetics.  Many people who start out wanting just a driver will start out to make just one or two little repairs and end up spending more than enough money to buy a good car.   These things tend to snowball.  For example, I started out to replace the valve seals in my car and ended up doing a nut and bolt restoration.  This may be atypical and I may be just a bit fanatical, but I suspect there are others who have similar experiences-maybe just not as drastic.    

Anyway good luck on whatever you decide to do.

Iverson