Previous relevant information :
"Posted - 09 Aug 2005 : 17:10:19
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Hey Arthur and Joe,
Thanks for the replies.
I think SteveRen is right, this discussion should be a separate topic.
There is a lot of important info here that shouldn't be lost in an un-related discussion.
Greg,
don't despair!
Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto
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Edited by - hands_aus on 09 Aug 2005 17:11:58
enochbell
Regular Level
USA
69 Posts
Posted - 09 Aug 2005 : 14:21:20
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You know, I am quite sure my car was in much better shape before I started reading this board...
I also have the speedo needle bounce. Assumed it was the speedo, now I wish it was that easy. It is no problem when ambient temp. is cold (below 50 F) but it is sluggish when hot (not the car, the ambient temp.) The speedo works well @<40mph but in higher ranges is will fall off and show 10-30 mph less than actual speed, and it works accurately only under hard acceleration. Sounds like the speedo drive gear is slipping?
I'm goin' in. Should I have on hand shims for the input shaft or should I try first to just tighten the nut? I will replace the trans. mount while in there, are there other maintenance items I should attend to while I am at it?
Thanks for the advice,
Greg
'64 230sl, fully sorted out...ooops, spoke too soon
SteveRen
Junior Level
USA
5 Posts
Posted - 09 Aug 2005 : 13:30:52
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Hey Everyone...
Maybe this should be a new topic, and if so, do advise...but i read the part about the bouncing speedo needle and i have been told that the same problem exists with th evehicle i am currently investigating for purchase( 1964 230SL 4spd euro). Is there something else i should be looking for?
Thanks in advance.
Benz Dr.
Gold Level
Canada
604 Posts
Posted - 09 Aug 2005 : 13:12:18
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Getting the end play set on the input shaft is what makes the trans shift smoothly. Any end play and the shaft moves before the syncro starts to work. This can cause the trans to jump out of gear but most of that is caused by a worn input shaft. The end where it fits into the pilot bearing can have no wear which is caused by a siezed pilot bearing and/or too much end play on the shaft. This movement can cause a deflection to occour on the main shaft which will sometimes make the trans pop out of high gear under load.
There are a number of small shims onder the front cover plate which need to be added to get the end play set to about .001''. I've seen them as much as .030'' or more.
Dan Caron's
SL Barn
benzbarn@ebtech.net
slbarn.mbz.org
A Dalton
Gold Level
USA
638 Posts
Posted - 09 Aug 2005 : 11:17:21
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quote:
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Originally posted by Raymond
Dalton, the pin socket I bought is from SirTools.com. I can't remember the part number and there aren't any markings on it. It was the only one they showed. I originally got the tool part number from Naj. I believe he had purchased and used one so it must have been right for his car.
Ray
'68 280SL 4-spd Coupe
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The problem one runs into with this pin socket is all the manufactures list them by auto trans type. No mention of manual , so this is the cause of the confusion...
So , guys sometime order the late K4C-025 one , when it is the earlier K4A -025 auto one that fits our manual trans nut.
So , whichever manufacturer one uses , make sure their listing is for the K4A/025 trans and it will be the correct stick one .
The pin for rear diff is the same for all swing axles, so one never winds up w/imcorrect one , as it is the only one...
You would think that they would mention this difference , but they do not..
If one has a late .044, the K4C-025 auto is correct. I believe that would be after the '69 break line..
It is not uncommon to see a posting where someone orders this tool and winds up with the one that does not fit ...50/50 chance, anyway. They then wind up making there own . .. which is way better than the punch technique
I think on the sticks , a little LockTite might be in order. too..
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Edited by - A Dalton on 09 Aug 2005 11:33:11
naj
Gold Level
United Kingdom
759 Posts
Posted - 09 Aug 2005 : 08:14:57
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quote:
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standard transmission "tour"
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While on the subject, is a 4 speed with floor shift from a 220Se same as a Pagoda box?
I was given one by a club member. Externally, it looks the same except the change speed lever on the top cover is horizontal instead if 'angled' downwards.
naj
65 230SL
68 280SL
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Edited by - naj on 09 Aug 2005 12:28:14
Ben
Gold Level
Ireland
653 Posts
Posted - 09 Aug 2005 : 06:59:17
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quote:
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On a standard transmission the tightness of the nut keeps the entire main gear cluster tight. If the nut should come loose so does the gear cluster, causing a bouncy speedometer (especially under acceleration and de-acceleration). Often some shifting problems will follow (slight nipping when going into gears or hard shifting). The problem on the standard transmissions is once the cluster becomes loose enough it will shift a key out of place and then just tightening the slotted nut may not completely solve the problem.
Bad synchronizers are usually blamed for the bad shifting, this is rarely the case!
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.............a Tour would be really usefull ! I tried to rebuild my tranny afew years back and it wasn't succesful! I had the speed o bounce problem, I had some noise and "Jumping" out of 4th !
I opened it and didn't see to much wrong, I replaced the bearings and synchro rings ...........I saw that key way you mentioned Joe...
but it still felt the same when I put it back together ! I later replaced the output flange nut and lock plate, having borrowed the tool from Naj.
I now see the speedo doing its trick again and I have a spare standard tranny which I want to rebuild then swop in ! Any info would be great here !
Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
naj
Gold Level
United Kingdom
759 Posts
Posted - 09 Aug 2005 : 04:26:20
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quote:
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Dalton, the pin socket I bought is from SirTools.com. I can't remember the part number and there aren't any markings on it. It was the only one they showed. I originally got the tool part number from Naj. I believe he had purchased and used one so it must have been right for his car.
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The one for the gearbox is M0029.
The nut on the diff is different and uses M0030.
naj
65 230SL
68 280SL
ja17
Gold Level
USA
959 Posts
Posted - 08 Aug 2005 : 23:04:28
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Hello Bob,
The problem is a lot less likely on automatics. But I have seen it. It is ususually a result of improper installation of the slotted nut on the automatics after rear transmission seal replacement and/or flange replacement.
The brass speedometer drive gear for both the auto and std. transmissions has no key or spline and depends on the tightness of the nut to keep them from slipping!
On a standard transmission the tightness of the nut keeps the entire main gear cluster tight. If the nut should come loose so does the gear cluster, causing a bouncy speedometer (especially under acceleration and de-acceleration). Often some shifting problems will follow (slight nipping when going into gears or hard shifting). The problem on the standard transmissions is once the cluster becomes loose enough it will shift a key out of place and then just tightening the slotted nut may not completely solve the problem.
Bad synchronizers are usually blamed for the bad shifting, this is rarely the case!
The slotted nut should be checked for tightness when repairs provide an opportunity or problems occure. There is a sheetmetal lock plate for this slotted nut, which should be replaced at these times.
I will try to do a standard transmission "tour" soon, since there is little information posted on these units. Stay tuned!
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
Raymond
Regular Level
USA
96 Posts
Posted - 08 Aug 2005 : 22:40:55
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Dalton, the pin socket I bought is from SirTools.com. I can't remember the part number and there aren't any markings on it. It was the only one they showed. I originally got the tool part number from Naj. I believe he had purchased and used one so it must have been right for his car.
Ray
'68 280SL 4-spd Coupe
A Dalton
Gold Level
USA
638 Posts
Posted - 08 Aug 2005 : 18:37:28
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BS,
It does not seem to be , but ..
Don't have a solid answer for you as to why , just seems to be the case.
If any auto trans guys here have had the same problems as many of the stick guys have had with this common problem , be nice to know ..
..prob has to do with autos upshifting auto under load
or, maybe even a better tail shaft spline fit ??
*An added note here .
Many order the pin wrench and it usually winds up the wrong fit .
Well , seems there are two different ones , so make sure before you order one..
hands_aus
Gold Level
Australia
614 Posts
Posted - 08 Aug 2005 : 15:47:31
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Arthur,
Is this flange nut not a problem on the autos?
Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto "
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
