Author Topic: Patina  (Read 12987 times)

John C

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Patina
« on: November 05, 2005, 15:36:00 »
In talking to different people about having my 1970 SL repainted, it's been suggested a few times that I should consider just leaving the car the way it is, with its original "patina" intact since the car is all original with no rust or body repairs.  In fact, one of the persons who suggested this is a (very honest) body shop owner who was consulted about doing the paint job.  I know there is a "rat rod" mentality among  collectors of certain cars, but I never considered an SL to be the type of car that would have that type of appeal if left with a paint job that is, like mine, oxidized pretty badly.  Is there any segment of SL owners that think it would be a mistake to put a new paint job on a car that is in all respects solid (and has been in the family since 1971, so I know its history)?  I realize this is all subjective; frankly it doesn't sound that appealing to me, but I'm just curious if there's anyone out there who has wrestled with this question.

hauser

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Re: Patina
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2005, 16:20:54 »
If the paint is beyond repair I would have it painted.  There are many cars out there that fit your description and most have had a new coat of paint.  I believe your car may fit into the category of preservation which sometimes could be more costly than a restoration.

Take a look at this. http://www.sportsleicht.com/Preservation.htm

1969 280sl 5 spd
Gainesville, Fl.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2005, 16:43:32 by hauser »

Mike Hughes

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Re: Patina
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2005, 16:40:33 »
I have a 1987 Jaguar.  These cars are notorious for poor paint quality, so much so that many from those years were repainted under warranty!  My car has been garage kept since new and only a few years ago started showing signs of deterioration of the original paint on one of the front fenders.  The head painter at my body shop recommended wet sanding and clearcoating that fender.  This way there would not be any paint matching issues, like there would be if he tried to repaint the fender.  I took his advice and it came out great.  This summer I noticed that the roof is now starting to go the same way so I may have him just go ahead and clearcoat the rest of the car.

So this begs the question:  If one clearcoats the original paint, is the paint still original?  ;^)

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Cees Klumper

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Re: Patina
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2005, 17:22:08 »
The paint is still original, it's just been coated!

Cees ("Case") Klumper in Amsterdam
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Douglas

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Re: Patina
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2005, 17:38:37 »
John C,

I generally prefer the look of patina on these old cars since there are so few left that can say they're untouched/original/one-family examples. Mostly, there are just bogus low-mileage cars that have had full restorations despite showing ridiculously low mileage. Go to ebay. There are at least half a dozen fakes on there at any time with less than 50K on them that's claimed to be genuine. Frankly, it's pretty sad.

In any event, it's been said before, but it bears repeating: A car can be restored repeatedly, but it can only be original once.

Can you share some pix? I think everyone would love to see your SL.

Chad

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Re: Patina
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2005, 18:48:46 »
John: Sharing pics with the guys on this forum would be very helpful for them to give you the advice you need, I think.  

In any case, I agree and would prefer to see a car preserved far more than a complete restore.  There is something joyful about using a machine that really is the machine it was 40 years ago.  However, some cars do need restored, and do need paint and many other things.  Not all budy shops want to tackle this kind of project, a forty year old car with a lot of chrome, a lot of trim, rubber, etc.  They look at the car and see something they consider unusual, something that has hidden surprises, something that can suck up a lot of their shop time and take them away from the money cow of insurance billing for wreckage repair, which is the bread and butter.  But not everyone wants to eat bread and butter everyday, so some people who don't specialize in antique restoration still will do it.  In any case, the guy may be giving you good advice, but he also may be kindly and politely refusing the project... The answer really depends on how bad the car really looks.

Post some pics up here and run around and get a number of other opinions.  The car may be fine, the car may be better enjoyed after a repainting. In my opinion, a car getting repainted also presents a great window for having the braking and steering components *restored* also.  Originality in braking and a loose steering is *not* preferable, as this will keep you and others alive.  But you know the car very well and know it's condition there.


-CD-
1967 230SL, 113.042 10

John C

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Re: Patina
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2005, 10:50:14 »
Per the suggestions, I'm attempting to attach photos of my "SL with patina" (I kept getting an error message when I tried using the "Attach an Image" option---?): I hope what I'm doing will work. I should mention that in all respects my car is and will remain a "driver".  If I do go ahead and paint it, it won't be with the aim to restore ir to the point that I'd be afraid to take it out. Thanks for all the comments.



TheEngineer

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Re: Patina
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2005, 11:51:22 »
My neighbor has a moosgreen 280SL which also has never been repainted. The paint shows the age far more than yours and yet, I believe I have convinced him to leave it alone. On a collector's car, like our Pagoda, originality is treasured. Your paint appears to be in very acceptable condition. Unless you have rust or damage: Leave it alone. Any Pagoda enthusiast would pay you more for a car that is original. Besides, one can always tell that a car has been repainted: There is invariably paint on rubber seals and overspray. Only if you do a body-off job, it would equal the original IMHO.
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Douglas

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Re: Patina
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2005, 13:32:15 »
Gorgeous car, John. Good to see a fellow New Yorker with such a nice Pagoda. (See? They're not all in California!)

I wouldn't touch the paint, but I might consider re-chroming the bumpers or replacing different pieces of trim.

It's rare to see a late-model US-spec Pagoda without bumper guards. Did you remove them?

John C

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Re: Patina
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2005, 15:16:20 »
Douglas:  Thanks for the comments on the car.  I bought it in 1971 from a dealer in Rockville Center NY (traded my 230SL) when it had 4000 miles on it.  It had been sold to a lady who never owned a small car before;  she had it a few months, and brought it back for a sedan.  She was so afraid of its size that she had replaced the original bumper guards with these HUGH hollow rubber guards that were filled with water (and anti-freeze in the winter) that had a plug in the top.  They were designed so that if they were bumped into, the water would absorb the shock and pop the plug out of the top.  I never tested the theory, but they sure were ugly.  Anyway, I sold the car to my father about a year after I got it, and when he passed away, my mom gave the car back to me.  One of the first things I did was remove the water-filled bumper guards---I think they're in my basement.  I kind of like the clean look without guards;  as a matter of fact a guy in Hershey this year had a pair of NOS rear guards for sale but I opted not to get them.  Sorry to make a long response to a short question.  By the way, has anyone ever come across the type of bumper guard contraption that I described?

Chad

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Re: Patina
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2005, 16:07:23 »
no reason in the world to paint that car. it is very ice. the trunk lid shows the age, i would enjoy it.

-CD-
1967 230SL, 113.042 10

Douglas

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Re: Patina
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2005, 16:33:53 »
Is that DB-173 non-metallic anthracite gray? If so, that's a rare color. I've only seen one in the flesh.

John C

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Re: Patina
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2005, 16:58:11 »
Douglas:  Yes, it's DB 173.  The hardtop is the same color.

Raymond

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Re: Patina
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2005, 18:22:48 »
Holy Moley! A driver for 34 years and it looks like that?!  I'd keep doing what you've been doing.  Wax the heck out of it and enjoy it.  

I just had mine taken down to bare metal and re-painted.  It is very nice, but the process was not the most fun I ever had with the car.  You have a georgeous color combo, if you can preserve it, it should be worth the effort.

Ray
'68 280SL 4-spd Coupe
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113gray

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Re: Patina
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2005, 19:20:14 »
The subject of "patina" is an interesting one that I've really not seen explored in depth for these cars. Clearly, many pre war classics in original sound & unmolested condition are considered more valuable & desirable than fresh restorations. And, with good antique furniture, it is considered a sin & ruins a piece to remove the beautiful patina that only comes with age by sanding & refinishing. OTOH, cars are not wooden furniture, & when the original finish, interior, engine compartment, whatever, crosses over the line into "shabby/deteriorated/ugly/non-functional", restoration of some degree makes sense. For this reason, my 113 has had body rust repair, a paint job & much of the interior replaced as a necessity. The engine, however, is original w/ > 150K miles & has simply been cleaned & detailed & I hope to keep the "patina" there intact. If I had a 113 driver w/ sound but old paint & little rust, I would preserve it as long as possible & proudly enjoy every minute of ownership. Just my $0.02 worth,  -JP-

Ben

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Re: Patina
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2005, 02:54:06 »
The general concensus here is to leave it original and I agree !

However what you could do is buy another trunk lid, as it appears to be the worst affected, and have it painted to match !

This wiull tell you how close a decent shop will get to the correct original finish. If it works out then great, your car looks better. If it doesn't you've leanred a vaulable lesson !

My €0.02 !   8)

Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.

Mike Hughes

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Re: Patina
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2005, 16:32:30 »

quote:
Originally posted by Ben

The general concensus here is to leave it original and I agree !

However what you could do is buy another trunk lid, as it appears to be the worst affected, and have it painted to match !

This wiull tell you how close a decent shop will get to the correct original finish. If it works out then great, your car looks better. If it doesn't you've leanred a vaulable lesson !

My €0.02 !   8)

Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.




... or have the trunk lid clearcoated!

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« Last Edit: November 07, 2005, 16:34:32 by Mike Hughes »
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Chad

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Re: Patina
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2005, 19:56:44 »
Ben,  Why would he need to *buy* another trunk lid??  Just wondering.

-CD-
1967 230SL, 113.042 10

Ben

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Re: Patina
« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2005, 02:48:03 »
Only because there may be a risk of a poor or "non original" looking finish. So he could experiment with a new or used trunk lid !

 
quote:
... or have the trunk lid clearcoated


........actually Mike, thats what I meant to say ! :)

Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.

Ed Fisher

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Re: Patina
« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2005, 07:41:08 »
John:

You can get some 5000 grit wet sandpaper at an automotive body supply shop.  While there, get a clay bar.  The 5000 grit feels almost like notebook paper, not much more grit than that.  Ask the guy at the counter to show you how to fold the paper, it is important since it will be getting wet and incorrectly folded will be hard to manage.

With copious amounts of water, and a very light pressure, you can wet sand the oxidation down very slightly to get a smoother finish to move to the next step.  Ultimately you want to get it acceptable to apply wax/sealant.  After the gentle wet sanding, apply the clay bar, equally gently, to knock down the oxidation just a little further.  This too must be used with a lot of water.  After these two steps, apply some Meguiars #7 show car glaze, by hand, paying close attention to the directions on the bottle.  Use many clean rags.  If the #7 is not giving you a good sheen, you may have to go down to #2, then back to the #7.  After the #7 go down to a finer polish like 3M Perfect It.  After all of these steps, apply a good wax.  My favorite, at least for now is Meguiars Tech Wax.  This wax goes on and off like a dream and holds up beautifully.

I know this all sounds daunting, especially when we are talking about a 40-year-old patina.  You can try it on a small inconspicuous area first.  What you are removing is the oxidation (irregularities) not the paint.  Shine/gloss comes from the absence of irregularities.

Surf some sites like Autogeek.net and superiorcarcare.net to learn a little bit about the latest and greatest products out there.  Talk to the person at the auto body shop supply counter (look in your phone book).  These guys see it all, and get feedback from the professionals on what works and what does not.  

You can always work backwards from my instructions above to see what may work and be less aggressive.  From an internet picture it is hard for me to discern the level of your oxidation.  I can tell you though, that paint that is cracked/checked/crazed can be made to look better.  Not perfect, but better.  You can try to start with the #2 Meguiars instead of the wet-sand and work down from there.  More elbow grease, but a potential path.  I have been doing this for so many years that I have learned to let the products work for me (many grades of polish, air driven polishers, special pads, etc).  Old-fashioned love and muscle can do just as good a job though; it just takes a little longer.

Good luck,

Ed Fisher
Dallas, Tx

rwmastel

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Re: Patina
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2005, 22:47:21 »
quote:
Originally posted by John C

Douglas:  Yes, it's DB 173.  The hardtop is the same color.


Group,
Would a non-metallic paint be clear coated in 1971?  If so, then John can't follow Ed Fisher's advice on removing oxidation, right?

Rodd
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Mike Hughes

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Re: Patina
« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2005, 11:47:42 »
Clear coat paints were a very late 1970s development, along with polyurethane paints - definately post-Pagoda!

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John C

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Re: Patina
« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2005, 14:54:19 »
Since first posting on this topic about 3 weeks ago,  I've been spending a lot of time going over the suggestions concerning my dilemma:  should I repaint an original 280 whose paint can be charitably be described as having earned a "patina" over the years.  Let me first thank all who offerred suggestions, most of which recommended some type of attempt to salvage the current paint (I've attempted this professionally in the past, with no real lasting success). Just when I think I've decided to follow these suggestions and keep what I have, I see a photo posted of an SL with a great paint job and I realize that I would probably enjoy the car more if it had a new paint job. (I should point out that I have an old 356 with a "patina" paint job on it and I'm fine with that----that model car is kind of funky to begin with, and the "dressed-down" look sort of fits. I view that the same as it being okay to wear a beat up pair of sneakers or topsiders with a pair of jeans, but with an SL, a classier car, it's like wearing a tuxedo with a pair of scuffed brown shoes: it just doesn't seem right.) So (as of this afternoon anyway), I'm going to pursue a repaint.  To that end, is there a "checklist" of items I should be negotiating for?  The shop I deal with uses Sikkens paint and I will have all the chrome, glass and rubber removed, and the car will be taken down to bare metal, but I'm wondering if I should specifically be asking for a certain procedure or number of coats to insure a proper job. I would appreciate any input that people can offer, and once again thanks those who participated earlier. I also have to thank Rodd M. for help with downsizing  photos for posting---I'm taking a stab at it with a photo of both cars.

Download Attachment: IMG_0885 (Small) (3).JPG
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Douglas

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Re: Patina
« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2005, 15:03:09 »
I'm no expert on bodywork, but I would think that stripping it down to bare metal would create unnecessary work. If the base is good/original/unrusty, wouldn't it make sense to just prep and paint over the old paint? I'm not suggesting some kind of cheap shortcut. It's my understanding that this is the correct procedure in these cases. Can someone else comment?

John C

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Re: Patina
« Reply #24 on: November 25, 2005, 15:05:18 »
I'm still trying to attach my photo.