Author Topic: List for No Longer Available Parts Lobby  (Read 48504 times)

rwmastel

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Re: List for No Longer Available Parts Lobby
« Reply #25 on: January 31, 2006, 21:01:21 »
quote:
Do you mean "fine" or "find," Bob??
[:0]  I hope he meant "find"!!
 8)  I think Bob is actually one of Tom's biggest fans.

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both  tops
1994 E420
Rodd

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DavidAPease

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Re: List for No Longer Available Parts Lobby
« Reply #26 on: February 01, 2006, 13:08:06 »
Chad,

I don't know if you're looking for a brand new interior mirror, but Mike Passarelli (ranchomerced) has just listed a used one that he says works for the 230SL on eBay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Mercedes-Benz-Rear-View-Mirror-230SL-250SL_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ34197QQitemZ4609382710QQrdZ1

-David Pease
'66 French 230SL
-David Pease
 '66 230SL (Originally sold in Paris)

Bob G ✝︎

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Re: List for No Longer Available Parts Lobby
« Reply #27 on: February 01, 2006, 14:31:36 »
I was contacted reguarding weather stripping for the three windows on the hard top. To my amazment they are availible at a price:
1136700039back glass weather seal $100.00
1133670139 left side glass rubber seal $75.00
11336700239 right side glass rubber seal $75.00
Chrome release handles for hard top 1137900568 & 0665    
Cost each $384.00 Holly MCnuggets Bat Man.
Prices quoted by the classic center in New Jersery.

Bob Geco

Bob G ✝︎

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Re: List for No Longer Available Parts Lobby
« Reply #28 on: February 01, 2006, 16:45:34 »
I have several heros when it comes to slaying the big mercedes-benz parts repar. Yes Tom Hanson and many other people helped me with my 280SL. I am a fan of anyone who can stand to be in the automotive business as many years as Tom Hanson and still be married:
Here is to you Tom !!

Bob Geco

Chad

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Re: List for No Longer Available Parts Lobby
« Reply #29 on: February 01, 2006, 18:38:52 »
The vinyl seat basketweave from GAHH turned out to be pretty close to what was original. Close enough for me. I think only GAHH produces this (of course other suppliers will often sell you GAHH produced products for cheaper).

Download Attachment: basketweave.jpg
56 KB
« Last Edit: February 01, 2006, 18:41:03 by Chad »

pagode.info

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Re: List for No Longer Available Parts Lobby
« Reply #30 on: February 04, 2006, 00:32:41 »
Both sunvisors are still available at Your local Merc dealer !
If You discover new original visors in catalogues or internet,
what do You think they come from ?

Have a nice day,

Tom  :)  

part #`s:  

230 SL: 113 810 0110 8001 lt beige
230 SL: 113 810 0210 8001 rt-beige

280 SL: 113 810 0710 8001 lt-beige
280 SL: 113 810 0810 8001 rt-beige
« Last Edit: February 04, 2006, 00:47:57 by pagode.info »

Chad

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Re: List for No Longer Available Parts Lobby
« Reply #31 on: February 04, 2006, 23:41:23 »
Hi Tom,

I think we all pretty much realize they are available from several sources, they are not NLA.  Thanks for the parts numbers. It is very helpful to make sure that we are getting the correct style for the model we have.  We also are aware of the present cost of the sunvisors available.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2006, 23:41:48 by Chad »

psmith

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Re: List for No Longer Available Parts Lobby
« Reply #32 on: April 03, 2006, 22:34:11 »
Wasn't there an option for headers on the 230's?  I think Dr. Dan has them on his car.  That would be a nice reissue.

Pete S.

rwmastel

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Re: List for No Longer Available Parts Lobby
« Reply #33 on: April 04, 2006, 16:44:37 »
quote:
Originally posted by psmith

Wasn't there an option for headers on the 230's?  I think Dr. Dan has them on his car.  That would be a nice reissue.
Pete,
I think they were simply standard up to a particular serial number, then changed to our "normal" exhaust headers.

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both  tops
1994 E420
Rodd

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psmith

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Re: List for No Longer Available Parts Lobby
« Reply #34 on: April 04, 2006, 21:41:04 »
Maybe it's a terminology thing, I know just enough half truths to be 2/3 dangerous, but I've always thought of headers to be individual pipes to each cylinder that merge after enough distance to reduce back pressure.  What's on my car ('67) is more of an exhaust manifold.  Did the early 230's really have headers?  Are they still available?

Pete S.

rwmastel

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Re: List for No Longer Available Parts Lobby
« Reply #35 on: April 09, 2006, 19:17:29 »
quote:
Originally posted by psmith

Did the early 230's really have headers?  Are they still available?
We are on the same page regarding the term "headers" or "header pipes".  Yes, they were standard on the 230SL, up to a particular serial number, which I don't know.  I think they are very difficult to find now.  There was a recent link posted to an e-Bay auction with 3 or 4 Pagodas, one showing header pipes on an engine.

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both  tops
1994 E420
Rodd

Did you search the forum before asking?
2017 C43 AMG
2006 Wrangler Rubicon
1966 230SL auto "Italian"

66andBlue

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Re: List for No Longer Available Parts Lobby
« Reply #36 on: July 29, 2006, 09:38:18 »
What happened to the NLA Lobby and "the list"?

The German language Pagoda site and the MBCCI [Mercedes Classic Car Club International at http://www.mercedes-benz-clubs.com/] have started a similar Parts with Problems list, divided into sub-categories:
1. ZZNL - which means "currently not available"
2. NML = NLA [D-C code C47]
3. shoddy material or part not fitting
4. overpriced at D-C compared to open market.

The hope is that by compiling such a list and making it semi-public on the MBCCI web site that it may pressure D-C to be less "bottom-line" oriented and more helpful to owners of classic cars.
It appears that the biggest hurdle to get the list going is finding the correct part number.
Perhaps we should join their efforts to have an EPC [electronic parts catalog] that is freely accessible to registered club or group members.

Alfred
1966 blue 230SL automatic
Alfred
1964 230SL manual 4-speed 568H signal red
1966 230SL automatic 334G light blue (sold)
1968 280SL automatic (now 904G midnight blue)

vincesy

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Re: List for No Longer Available Parts Lobby
« Reply #37 on: September 24, 2006, 02:01:02 »
Is it true that the rheostat is no longer available?

Is there a quick and easy fix for this?  My tachometer and everything else is bright enough but the speedometer is dim.

Has anyone tried bypassing the rheostat completely, sacrificing what I think is a hardly used dimmer function, for better visibility and simplicity?

hauser

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Re: List for No Longer Available Parts Lobby
« Reply #38 on: September 24, 2006, 10:29:56 »
Vincesy,  That is exactly what I did with mine. These dimmers are the greatest and sometimes it's best just to bypass it.  If my dimmer did work I'd have it turned to the brightest setting since anything less just isn't bright enough for me.

1969 280sl 5 spd
Gainesville, Fl.

ZwoachtzigSL

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Re: List for No Longer Available Parts Lobby
« Reply #39 on: September 24, 2006, 23:30:46 »
.


W113 Problemteile Liste - Problem Spare-Parts-List




Hello Friends.


I provided the first W113 "PTL-List" (Problem-Part-List) in June and
adjusted the list into the Pagodentreff-Forum and in the MBCCCI-Forum
Mercedes-Classic-Car-Club-International GmbH).

It’s nice to see, that you recognized the Spare-Part-problem too.
Same cars = resembles problems.

It gives even more W113 Spare-Parts, which are no longer available.
Other Spare-Parts are from worse and very bad quality. Repairs at
Engine, Automatic-Transmission, Fuel-Injection-System are retarded
thereby and made impossible in individual cases.

Other Spare-Parts became very expensive in the last years. Their
price partly doubled in less than 5 years.

A Steering-Gear for over 4.300,00 Euro, an Automatic-Transmission
for over 5.300,00 Euro and a Brake-Drum for 1.300,00 Euro, per
piece (1994: 70,00 Euro)? Or Pressure-Control-Valves for the R11
(230SL) Injection-Pump no longer available? There are still many of
such examples.

The worst is, many of individual Pagoda spare-parts-customers get
arrogant or none answer from the MB-Classic-Center. Complaints of
individual customers are answered very often in such a way, as if it
is the problem of a particular. The MBIG Mercedes-Benz-Interest-
Community, one of Germanys oldest official Mercedes Mark-Clubs
gathered amazing experiences in many years here.

The consequence is: Many Pagoden drivers can hold their cars only
heavily or for no more drivingready.

Exactly that is the reason, why the list is so important for all of
us.

And some more: Nearly 10,000 Pagoden owners clicked the two Forum -
Threads in the meantime. Nevertheless the German Mercedes-Classic-
Center until today does, as if there would not be the W113 - PTL
list. Are we customers or fat booty?


Detlef Kupfer, Bad Homburg (Germany)



.


Stern-Garage
« Last Edit: September 25, 2006, 23:03:20 by ZwoachtzigSL »

Longtooth

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Re: List for No Longer Available Parts Lobby
« Reply #40 on: September 26, 2006, 02:04:22 »
Parts, and whether re-manufactured with original molds or materials or not, are a simple function of price supply/demand.  Whomever is in the supply chain has to make a profit at a reasonable level (read this to mean for a given investment of capital, what's the annual return on capital taken over some period of time compared to the return on some other use of that capital over the same period).

Same applies to time/effort devoted to supply/sales/distribution/inventory costs.

With the simple economic's in mind, consider now the demand side of things --- read quantity of parts one could reasonably be able to sell on an annualized basis.

Some stats on the various W113's...

230SL - 19,831 Produced
      - >50% produced in '65 & '66
      - 11,726 (59% of Total)Exported (outside Germany)
      - 4,752 (24% of Total) Exports to US
      - 2,166 7/1/90 still registered in Germany (Kraftfahrbundesamt)
        -- 8,105 (41%) Non-Exports Produced
        -- 27% of Non-Exports still registered in Germany in July '90
      - ~5,300 by inference (~27%) of total production still registered/used somwhere in the world... in 1990... ~25 years since Mean year of production ('65)

250SL - 5,196 Produced
      - 99% produced in '67
      - 3,808 (73% of Total) Exported (outside Germany)
      - 1,761 (34% of Total) Exports to US
      - 427 7/1/90 still registered in Germany (Kraftfahrbundesamt)
        -- 1,388 Non-Exports Produced
        -- 31% of Non-Exports still registered in Germany in July 1990
        -- ~1,550 by inference (30%) of total production still registered / used somewhere in the world... in 1990... ~23 years since Mean Year of Production.

280SL - 23,885 Produced
      - 37% produced in '70 & '71
      - 18,681 (78% of Total) Exported (outside Germany)
      - 12,927 (54% of Total) Exports to US
      - 2,590 7/1/90 still registered in Germany (Kraftfahrbundesamt)
        -- 5,204 Non-Exports Produced
        -- 50% of Non-Exports still registered in Germany in July 1990
        -- ~12,000 by inference (50%) of total production still registered / used somewhere in the world... in 1990... ~21 years since Mean Year of Production.
 
That's a total W113 production of 48,912 units.... mean year of production being ~1967.... 39 years ago.  

There appears to be a significant drop in residual registered/used vehicles between 21 years since Mean Year of Production, and 25 years since Mean Year of production.

% of Total Production Inferred Registered / Years Since Mean Year of Production
     27% / 25
     31% / 23
     50% / 21    

This is an exponential decay with time.  The forward projection to 40 years since Mean Year of production would predict <5% of total production still in use.

This is probably somewhat understated, since the projection is based on cars in use after 20 - 25 years since new, and as we all know, the cost of maintaining a car after 25 years vs costs of a new car becomes excessive, & reliability drops off at an increasing rate.  Add to this the effects of rust in all but the driest of clime's (Italy, Spain, Near East, South-Western US, Mexico, etc), and the rate of car's leaving the use market after 25 years would increase beyond the exponential predicted by the 20 - 25 years of use.

As an example, say 5% would miraculously still be in use or used as show cars, collector cars, restored or maintained daily drivers, or in some state of preparation for future restoration and use.

That would predict approx. 5% of 49k or ~2,500 remaining units in some state of use/repair/restoration/waiting for restoration.  Less than half those would be 230SL's... far fewer yet the 250SL's, and over half being the 280SL's.  

Consider that the estimated total was <19k in mid 1990, or 39% of all W113's of which nearly 2/3's (25%) were 280SL's, 3% 250SL's, and 11% 230SL's.  If the exponential projection is used to project the percentages to the 40 year mark (since mean year of production), then the 230SL's would have 2.2% (of total production) remaining in use/restored/waiting to restore, the 250SL's having 3% of it's total production, and the 280SL's having 4% of their total production. If the relative proportions remained the same, then at the 40 year mark the 5,000 projected units still in use/restoring/waiting for restoring would translate to roughly 1.5k 280SL's, <250 250SL's, and ~750 230SL's.

So... from a business / economic's point of view, the business of providing classic car parts which are unique to the W113's has to be a very low volume business indeed... and with such low volumes, and decreasing volumes with time, the unit prices have to become very high in any event.... and the higher these prices have to become, the fewer of the W113's will remain in the restorable / restored catagory... accelerating the rate at which the vehicles in the non-restored catagory already will become parts cars.

The only parts that will remain at some reasonable level are those that aren't unique to the W113's... but were also used on the 111's, 108's, etc. of the time.

So... while we may try to get the Classic Car Center to contract to produce more of the rare parts, or even produce any of them, the MB Classic Center is anything but a philanthropic organization.... and must 1st and formost make a competitive roi on whatever capital it has to invest.... just to contract to have any parts produced.  This will inevitably diminish with time, so that more marginal uses of capital by non-MB restoration parts business's will spring up over time... quality being more / less also marginal, or less than authentic.  There will also be fewer parts producers, as the reduction in volume/demand will force consolidation of whatever parts producer's still exist.

I've also discovered a phenomena recently... a few years ago, new MB beauty rings (230SL's thru 250SL's) were in the $75-$100/unit range (I still have the quote from 5 years ago).  In the meantime, they had become unavailable from MB or anybody else... and prices climbed to over US$250 per beauty ring if you could find them.  It actually become roughly break-even with having the old ones you could find restored by a premium chrome house.... not just rechroming, but taking out dents, deep scuffs and scratches as well.  I recently resigned myself to looking into both options... finding 3 or 4 that were in better shape than mine at some price, or having mine restored.  So I inquired with my MB parts source as to the now going rate I'd have to pay for nearly pristine ones --- rechroming perhaps the only extra I'd have to put out myself.... but dent/gouge/scratch free.  Lo & behold, MB had them available again though... but at retail $200 ish now... 5 years later over double the price.... albeit competetively with the costs of restoring the existing ones.

Now, in the ensuing 5 years the supply dropped, and the demand accumulated until it was economically worth a competitive roi for MB to invest in another run of these... and I'd guess a reasonably low run number... so that the next time the same parts will be roughly double the price once again... 5 more years hence.... with fewer in the next run than in this one.

Just think like a business does... how to maximize your return on capital... and you'll get the picture on what parts will be produced... how long between run intervals while demand accumulates, and the alternative method of obtaining the parts (machining them to original tolerances?... new castings?  new metal bending molds? while MB Classic Car controls it's parts to maximize profit, while still providing enough, often enough to keep the demand rising (so that more of the car's don't end up more readily available as parts cars which decreases the future volume of demand by an even greater rate.

Consider that if MB Classic Center weren't contracting to produce any spare parts at all how many of the W113's would still be on the road or being restored...  the price for restoring one at all.

Basically, providing a wish list has to be weighed against the profit MB Classic Center needs to use their capital to satisfy the wish(es).  It's a business, after all, isn't it?... and last I heard MB wasn't in the habit of marginalizing their roi on use of capital.          

And, for the record, my statistic's on model production volumes, exports, etc. are from Engelin's book Vom Barok zur Pagode.  The exponential fit of decay of units available has a 90% correlation coeficient (Rsqr for those with stat background) , so there's a definite exponential decay, though the uncertainties are relatively large with only 3 point from which regression is done.  

I won't vouch for the accuracy of the projections to the 40 year since Mean year of production, nor the world-wide inferred numbers (inferred from the German Vehicle Registration office in 1990 (also from Engelin's book))... the 5% number seems somewhat realistic... but even if it's 10% the entire remaining portion of the economic's still applies in spades.

The more the W113's are used, driven, the more will bite the dust and become parts cars at best. We all know this inherently, can bank on it absolutely... the only question being at what rate it occurs.

Longtooth
67 250SL US #113-043-10-002163
'02 SL500 Sport

vincesy

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Re: List for No Longer Available Parts Lobby
« Reply #41 on: September 26, 2006, 14:53:05 »
Longtooth,

Your numbers argument is definitely very convincing and is probably the major driving factor behind the parts. However, a business person might look at your numbers differently.  

1.  As the cars get older, their need for parts becomes greater.  While there are smaller numbers out there, on a per car basis, wouldn't the pagoda be a more profitable candidate for car part manufacturers?  There is money to be made for the few specialized suppliers that emerge from consolidation and the niche market players.  In the end it's still a matter of supply and demand.  If the supply dries up too quickly though, then the same demand though small will have become relatively big and attractive enough for some businesses.  The threshold of risk and profitability also differs greatly for MB and the aftermarket firms.

2.  The projection to 40 years after mean production year seems too aggressive.  I'm more optimistic and think we're close to a level that will not fall much lower from the current numbers.  There will still be some fallout as some pagodas deteriorate to a point beyond financially justifiable restorations or maintenance but I expect a higher percentage of the remaining pagodas to survive in the coming years.  I think Darwinism is at work here and most of the weak cars (or owners) have been screened out already.  

3.  Desirability should be taken into account on top of the numbers.   I expect a lot of the sedans or less popular cars of the same age to suffer a steeper decline in numbers than the 113s.  Hopefully it'll be these cars that would benefit from shared parts with the w113 and not the other way around.  
While there may be more of these cars out there, the motivation to restore or maintain most of them (except the w108/109 coupe/cabriolet) is probably not as high as for a 113 and therefore makes a less compelling story for part manufacturers.  

4.  The goal of MB Classic might not be entirely profit oriented.  When MB announced it would support any production car that's over 20 years old (their definition of a "classic"), I believe it was partly in pursuit of certain intangible benefits.   There is advertising value and prestige attached to seeing MB cars still running after many years on the road.  It is the same philosophy behind their High Mileage awards, the birth certificate program etc.  Supporting  their classic cars is a good way to promote MB's legacy and foster loyalty amongst current customers which can translate into business with newer MB models.  

Vincent

Longtooth

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Re: List for No Longer Available Parts Lobby
« Reply #42 on: September 27, 2006, 23:58:33 »
Vince,

I can't / won't disagree with your arguments, and for the most part, I think we're in good agreement.

Your Point #1:

1. As the cars get older, their need for parts becomes greater. While there are smaller numbers out there, on a per car basis, wouldn't the pagoda be a more profitable candidate for car part manufacturers? There is money to be made for the few specialized suppliers that emerge from consolidation and the niche market players. In the end it's still a matter of supply and demand. If the supply dries up too quickly though, then the same demand though small will have become relatively big and attractive enough for some businesses. The threshold of risk and profitability also differs greatly for MB and the aftermarket firms.

Price has an inverse relation to demand volume.... AND use of Capital for ROI seeks the greatest ROI at lowest possible risk.  My statement is that MB Classic selectively manages supply... therefore price.... therefore ROI.  They can do this because authentic restoration seek's authentic MB parts... and MB Classic either still owns the capital used to mfg'er some of the parts, or have contracts that require their vendors who now own or lease the capital equipment to sell exclusively to MB for resale thru MB "official" channels.  When an independant supplier seeks to enter the market as the price makes it economically practical, the supply can then increase... relative to demand and price drops ... and guess who goes out of business first?.. in other words, for a low volume business, if you don't "own" the supply, you have to take a loss until you drive the competetor's out of business by pricing below the economically valid level.  My point was and continues only to be that requesting MB Classic to produce or make a run of some of the rarer parts for the W113's won't be done because of MB's philanthropy, but only when it makes competitive use in capital in terms of ROI compared to some other use of the same capital at that time.

My observation of the beauty-rings (230SLl/250SL variety) availability and pricing is just one example of a specific case of the point.  Retail MB part 4 years ago was $100 - $125... now, same MB part retail's at near twice that... and for part of that interval in time, there were none available from MB... or anybody else for that matter, unless they were used parts in less than "new" condition.

Inflationary pressures didn't drive the price to nearly double in 4 years, so the price increase had to be due to pent up demand created by withholding new MB parts for some of the intervale over the past 4 years.  As the demand increased without a supply, the alternative was to restore what already existed... which forces high labor rates for removing creases, dents, heavy abraision (curbs), not to mention rechroming... which get's the restoration costs into the $200 range/unit, for the ones that are even restorable.

At which point, MB Classic can decide to make another run... and instead of the restorers or some other metal bender getting into the business and taking the profit, MB can do so with an even greater profit margin... increasing their ROI to continue to supply a few more parts (until the pent-up demand eats up their new supply)... then the cycle starts over again.  When the rate of increase of pent-up demand reaches a specific threshold that makes the potential time return on capital less than it needs to be (competitive use of capial at play), MB has no incentive to supply any more parts.... so in time, the Classic center just stops making them available at all.  

Yes, there's a marketing value to maintaining a few cars on the road and in show-rooms, but only if the prices for them continues to appreciate, since, if they don't, the 'cieling' price is reached and it doesn't become economically advantageous for anybody to continue to restore them, or even maintain them to the same level.  

I'd bet that MB Classic has this down to an economic science since they've been doing classic parts for their 'classic cars' probably longer than any other manufacturer.  Prices for replacement and spare parts will go up at greater than the rate of inflation... commensurate with the alternative price for restoring existing parts, and only if and when the time value of use of the capital required is economically justified... meaning that if the rate of demand isn't high enough (pent-up or otherwise), they can't afford to sit on invested capital tied up in inventory that takes too long to depleat.

This in turn has to be balanced with other parts suppliers willing to take lower return on roi to capture some of the available market.  I'd bet, however, the demand and rate of demand for parts is a very well kept MB secret, so that those willing to take lower roi than MB on use of capital have to somehow estimate the demand rate.. which increases their risk on use of capital.... and when that's considered in their economic equation it reduces the amount of capital that will be used at that level of risk for restoration parts.

By the way... giving out plastic molded awards for longevity of vehicle use (miles driven) is pure MB hype.  They get the publicity and marketing value for the cost of a few press releases and a mold for a piece of plastic.  I'm definitely not impressed... more adversly impressed... MB's "prestigeous" awards now reduced to a piece of plastic???  Cheapen's MB's image, IMO... and in any event certainly cheapened my image of their business.  Of course this is part of the maintenance of "demand" excercise, but it certainly isn't worth that much (to their "demand" maintenance equation) if the awards are plastic molded parts, now is it?

As far as the projected remaining W113's go at 40 years since Mean Year of Production, it's anybody's best guess as to what the real numbers and rates of decay are.... mine's simply based on the most rudimentary of methods... analytically founded.  Like I said, even if you double my projections, nothing changes in the conclusions.

I just think it's naive to assume that getting a list of requested spare parts together from as many W113 groups as exist will result in any increase in spare parts availability from MB Classic.... as if MB CClassic economics and business executives don't already know the ddemand better than could probably ever be put together by an ad-hoc method of owners.

On the other hand, there's nothing to lose by trying is there?  ... who knows?... maybe my assessment of MB Classic and economically competitive use of capital's all wrong.  I'm not so sure the price/profit point won't materialize .... but the prices that emerge would kill off most who harbor a belief that they'ed 'buy' that spare part if it were available.  Don't we keep reading on this site about "it's not worth $nnn" for the interest of those seeking those parts?  The most recent example was a 280SL oil cooler... $900 from MB Classic... and those were used on more than just the 280SL.... so a bypass is the alternative... or finding a used one that won't bust either is the other.  What-do-ya wanna bet that a used on is in the $500+ range... and that's with pot-luck on whether it holds together or not.... lotta money for a risky buy, no?  Is it any wonder, then that MB Classic's charging $900 for a new one?

There should be no doubt at all that the rarer the demand for a part, the dearer the price for it if it's even available at all.

It's not about keeping a car running... just look at some of the '30's and '40's cars still running and being used in Cuba, for example... bailing wire and a welding torch will hold them together and keep-em running, more/less... it's about maintaining a classic in reasonably good appearance & reliable running order (or showing them).

Which reminds me... when do you think we'll see some late mode MB 6's, drive-trains (modern tranny's & rear-ends), & modified suspension system's, fatter, larger diam. wheel's & tires shoehorned into some of the classic's... W113's included?.  It'll happen you know... when it costs as much to do that as it does to restore & maintain to original condition.  When it does, it'll start taking an increasing share of the authentic crop of available drivers and restorable versions off that list.... reducing the demand for spare parts for the authentic's at an ever faster rate.... and no telling what'll do to the demand for the authentics still in use... could force the ones that are't fully restored pristine condition ones into the dust.. since their only practical value would end up being modified to satisfy the suped up modernized versions... body shape being more/less the only left-over part that's still from external appearances (only) a W113.

Longtooth
67 250SL US #113-043-10-002163
'02 SL500 Sport

Longtooth

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Re: List for No Longer Available Parts Lobby
« Reply #43 on: September 28, 2006, 01:03:24 »
Vincent... here's a place where we disagee..

"I think Darwinism is at work here and most of the weak cars (or owners) have been screened out already."

I think the screening out process is a function of demographics of disposable income, relative to cost of maintenance/restoration.  I think the demographics continues in the same direction, and at an increasing rate as it has been... i.e. lower and lower proportion of population with a given level of disposable income as time as moved from the 70's to now.  More and more 2 income earning families to make ends meet or maintain reasonable middle-class status.... as a proportion of the population... this is true in Europe, US, and everywhere else.  A process that's been going on since '70's and continues unabated is a greater and greater separation between the rich and poor... with more and more proportion falling into the lower catagory relative to the higher one.... a reduction in middle class proportion.

If the proportion of population with disposable income at some threshold level is decreasing, while the prices/costs of maintenance and restoration is increasing with decreasing volume, then the relative cost of maintaining and/or restoring a classic is increasing by more than is apparent in prices alone.

In other words, there will be less and less disposable income spent on maintenance and restoration of a classic W113... or any other classic for that matter.  The disposable income that is available for this pursuit will come from a smaller and smaller segment of demographics, spent on fewer and fewer units. ... meaning prices of restoration and maintenance increases as fewer and fewer are able to afford to continue to maintain and / or restore a classic.

I think that's inevitable... the question only being in my mind at what rate this occurs.

At the moment, we're seeing the effects of the baby-boomer generation reaching their peak income producing years and peak disposable income years.... their offspring reaching the years of being out of the house, for example, ability to downsize housing for another.

Technically, I'm just ahead of the baby-boomers... one could consider me on the earliest tail of it I suppose.  So as I go, so come the baby-boomer's behind me...

So, for the next few years we should be seeing an increase in demand for classic car's ... though I'm not sure they won't opt for the cars of the 70's (as 'classics') more than those of the 60's... nostalgia of their early teen and teen years being a large driver of what car's become desireable with disposable income.

In fact, historically, the 'classic's have seen demand increases during the period where the disposable income set (say beginning in their early to mid 50's) have seen their teen years.... which is roughly 30-35 years prior.  So by the time my brother (middle of baby-boomer generation) reaches his early 50's in the 2010-2015 time-frame, the nostaligia cars of 30-35 years prior should come from the  early to mid 1980's.  

This stands to reason, I think, considering my brother's 14 years behind me... so if I saw the W113's as the car to own in the mid-60's, then he (his generation) should see cars produced ~15 years later as those to own ---- '65 + 15 = '80.

Of course, off-hand, I can't think of an '80's car I'd like to own and/or restore... but I'm sure the generation of by brother can.

Of course this is pure conjecture on my part... but if it's even somewhat true, then the disposable income set in 5-10 years will be proportionately spent on cars of the 80's.... less on cars of the 60's... so conceivably demand for the '60's classics will drop by more than it's dropped already.  The demand that does materialize will most likely be for the '60's W113's that are already in good shape... or restored to a reasonably good level already... and those will thereofore carry a more premium price.... the other's should drop in demand... therefore price won't continue to appreciate as much or will remain stable.... i.e. stay even with inflation.

Anyway, that's my premis.  Unless there's some new hype that develops & sweeps the US or some other major high disposable income county for the W113's, there'll be a split in pricing... those that are near authentic and can be restored to authentic at a reasonable cost will appreciate at an increasing rate, and the rest will start to dissappear from the market--- parts cars, seriously modifieds, and rust bucket scrap metal salvage value.    

The "seriously modifieds" --- modern power plants, drive trains, suspensions, probably some body mod's to go with them, could and I'd guess will take the lion's share of those that aren't capable of restoration, so it's not like you won't see the W113's body style around... but under the hood and probably the interior's won't be recognizable as being either from MB or the '60's.  


Longtooth
67 250SL US #113-043-10-002163
'02 SL500 Sport

rob walker

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Re: List for No Longer Available Parts Lobby
« Reply #44 on: October 11, 2006, 09:51:28 »
Centre exhaust heat shield, any ideas on where one of these can be obtained SLS can no longer supply, nor MB dealers in UK. Its a bit of bent aluminium, would have thought some manufacturer would be producing.

Rob Walker

1968 280SL papyrus white/green leather
2004 230 SLK silver

Joe

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Re: List for No Longer Available Parts Lobby
« Reply #45 on: October 11, 2006, 10:16:53 »
While you make some persuasive arguments, Longtooth, I have difficulty in agreeing with all of them. The Pagoda is simply a beautiful car and will always be desired for that reason. Whether it was popular in a particular stage of one's life is, I think, of no consequence.
We see more and more 113s being restored and I can't imagine an equal number being run into the ground, the way they were twenty years ago. Comparing them to 300SLs would be valid, I think, in terms of projecting their future, and you certainly don't see examples of that car sitting out in the field under a tree, rotting their way back to their origins.
Just my opinions.
Joe

Benz Dr.

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  • Benz Dr.
Re: List for No Longer Available Parts Lobby
« Reply #46 on: October 11, 2006, 13:33:22 »
First thing you need to figure out is the whole
 '' classic car '' thing and then get back to us.

 Anyone who knows anything about cars knows 113's are milestone cars, antique cars, maybe historic cars or vintage cars, but sure as hell NOT classic cars.

Dan Caron's
 SL Barn
benzbarn@ebtech.net
 slbarn.mbz.org
  1 877 661 6061
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

rob walker

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Re: List for No Longer Available Parts Lobby
« Reply #47 on: January 22, 2007, 01:10:31 »
Not believing I am the only one seeking a centre exhaust heat shield which I have been trying to locate for almost 1 year, just been told by SLS in Germany that they have managed to get a supply of these rare parts, and now have them in stock.

Rob Walker
1968 280SL papyrus white/green leather
Spain and Turkey

Chad

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Re: List for No Longer Available Parts Lobby
« Reply #48 on: December 09, 2007, 18:47:22 »
Having started the topic of NLA parts/ rare parts slightly over two years ago, I opened it up to quickly peruse it again as I am thinking along the lines of availability for the original rubber/vinyl mats for the 230 cars.  I remember it was interesting but then the thread got unfocused venturing into consideration of economics and market forces and even the official definition of classic automobiles.  These are peripherally related to the NLA issue, I suppose, but refocusing/revisiting the NLA topic I believe is useful and important (and done often in various questions on the forum).  

(1) Any more focused discussion of NLA parts?  Has anyone found availability of a part they thought was v. rare or NLA?  Has anyone discovered a need for a part they believe is either rare or NLA and quite possibly is not and want to add the part to the list of wanted/needed in general for the maintenance of these cars? Anything to pen to the earlier list?

(Rob Walker's comment below from 22/1/07 relating to center exhaust heat shield availability is quite exactly the useful information that may help someone who is scratching their heard over a part.)

(2) I remember writing several letters to the Classic Center regarding a list of parts over a year ago, initially to see if this is the case, but never heard back and therefore could not form the grounds for a further discussion with them. Has anyone else thought of a means to achieve the ends of obtaining rare parts, some other venue or avenue for discourse?

(3) IMO it is in our best interest to keep these vintage automobiles in original condition as much as possible.  This is only reasonably possible if the parts are there.  I fear that escalating prices of parts and unavailability will tempt many owners out there who are non-forum members to deconstruct and hotrod the cars.

This posting is already well beyond 100 words which is the limit of what I normally can sit and type or might sit and read at one time. In any case, may this topic possibly be resurrected occasionally and, more often than not, on point.



1967 230SL
« Last Edit: December 09, 2007, 19:06:36 by Chad »

hauser

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Re: List for No Longer Available Parts Lobby
« Reply #49 on: December 11, 2007, 02:53:15 »
I guess we can add the ashtray along with passenger side mirrors.  At least for now!

1969 280sl 5 spd
Gainesville, Fl.