Author Topic: Water Pump & Fan Cluch Replacement  (Read 13770 times)

n/a

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Water Pump & Fan Cluch Replacement
« on: July 12, 2003, 06:26:00 »
In my quest to thoroughly bullet proof my cooling system I am looking at replacement of the water pump and fan clutch. I would like to avoid removing the radiator (did it once and did not enjoy it).
Is it possible to do either or both of these replacements without having to remove the radiator and hood?
Thanks.

Regards,
Stan

Ricardo

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Re: Water Pump & Fan Cluch Replacement
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2003, 07:45:50 »
Stan
Yes it is possible to do both jobs without removing the rad, at least on my '67 250 with P/S. You have to unbolt the fan where it is connected to the pump. The bolts won't come completely out as they hit the fan housing/bracket, but enough to get the fan out. The pump is easy when the fan is out, Installing the fan is a bit of a pain getting the bolts started, but still better than hauling out the rad.
Richard V

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Re: Water Pump & Fan Cluch Replacement
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2003, 16:33:09 »
Stan,
Ricardo is correct. It can be done. Don't forget that the radiator mounting bolt holes are slotted. By loosening the 10mm bolts, the radiator can often be moved forward a bit. On models with the large aluminum spacer between the pulley and the pump, use some tape to keep the spacer lined-up so the fan bolts can be re-started easily.

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

Dick M

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Re: Water Pump & Fan Cluch Replacement
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2003, 17:44:19 »
Joe,
Can the fan clutch be replaced or can an SE fan swap?
Dick

Bob G ✝︎

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Re: Water Pump & Fan Cluch Replacement
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2003, 11:18:10 »
I noticed that my fan rotates freely when the engine is cold or hot. Is this normal or signs the fan clutch is in need of replacement?

Bob Geco

n/a

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Re: Water Pump & Fan Cluch Replacement
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2003, 14:44:02 »
Bob,
I believe that this is an indication that the clutch is worn and needs replacing.

Regards,
Stan

dwilli3038

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Re: Water Pump & Fan Cluch Replacement
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2003, 18:45:38 »
Did all 113's have fan clutches? My early 230 SL (serial # 508)does not have a fan clutch. Is this something a PO did or did it come from Mercedes like this?

Daryl
'64 230 SL

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Re: Water Pump & Fan Cluch Replacement
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2003, 22:55:34 »
Hello,
I recall that the early version 230-SL did not use a fan clutch? I think it had just a solid magnesium or plastic fan. The sedan fan clutches are the same. Most fan clutches on the late finbacks W111, W110 , also the W108 cars and the W114 cars are the same. Sometimes the magnesium fan blades are the same also. Just count the number of fan blades to be sure
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
« Last Edit: July 18, 2003, 23:01:40 by ja17 »
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

dwilli3038

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Re: Water Pump & Fan Cluch Replacement
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2003, 18:21:32 »
Hello Joe,

I have 4 blades on my fan which apears to be magnesium. No fan cluch. I have done little on the car since I was at your place snce I managed to break a leg during that trip to Ohio. Hopefully this Saturday I will be back figuring out my fuel problems

Daryl
'64 230 SL

ja17

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Re: Water Pump & Fan Cluch Replacement
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2003, 23:21:01 »
Hello Daryl,
Sorry to hear about the leg. Hope you are healing up well.
The solid fan is bullet proof as far as cooling. However it does rob a little power from the engine.



Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

Dick M

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Re: Water Pump & Fan Cluch Replacement
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2003, 11:26:25 »
I think this is a Joe question....

My temp. on the open road usually hangs just above 180 deg. except in hills or long idle situations however it never quite hits the top white mark on the gage (assume it is 200 deg. indicator).

The service manual indicates that air temp. at fan must be about 165 deg. F. to engage fan.  165 deg. at fan happens when water temp. is around 200 deg. F.(depending on ambient air).  Would this explain swing in gage temp. between 180. deg F. (thermostat closed) up to 200 deg. F. (last white mark on guage) when fan kicks in?

Are there cars out there with visco fan cooling that hold constant 180 deg. regarless of driving conditions?

Dick
1970 280SL

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Re: Water Pump & Fan Cluch Replacement
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2003, 09:47:10 »
I am convinced I need to improve the airflow past the radiator.
On a 1970 280sl (or similar), has anyone replaced the fan and clutch with a direct drive (no clutch) fan? I was looking at some of the light weight fans for racing applications (Summitt Racing). I am wondering if replacement with this type of fan arrangement would improve the cooling without damaging the water pump.
Has anyone removed the fan and clutch and installed an electric fan?
Hey, I just want to be able to drive my car in 95 degrees Houston traffic (heavy) with the A/C running.

Regards,
Stan

Longtooth

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Re: Water Pump & Fan Cluch Replacement
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2003, 11:45:29 »
I've been driving in 95 & 100 degr F heat for the past month at 85 - 90 mph with only slight heating above the 80C mark... the pointer get's as high as horizontal, but that's been the limit so far.

I've been driving daily 20 miles to work and back, plus other short drives 40-80 miles in this weather with top down at 80 - 90 continuous speed, so no added weight of the hard-top but added wind resistance to compensate.  

My engine is rebuilt (my original block at Metric Motors in LA) ~4K miles ago, and I had the radiator re-cored at that time.... all new cooling hoses, thermostat, etc.

I have A/C (Kuhlmeister) I've been using while at highway speeds on the freeway, but not in any traffic or city driving that forces me to slow down much....  you might ask why use the A/C with top down?????... 'cause at 95 & 100 F outside, a breath of cooler air wafting over you now and then is worth it.

I have 2 problems with the Kuhlmeister A/C unit ---

1) At idle or near idle the compressor's load (new compressor --- smallish unit, ~ 6x6x6 inches or so) kills the engine (it' can't recover). Hence, I don't use A/C in traffic or anytime I might have to slow to a near crawl -- low rpm condition.  

2) The internal fan air distribution unit (inside the passanger compartment under the dash) can't be pushed far enough toward the front of the car to keep it from interfering with the under dash light (at driver's right side near the steering column).  If I could locate the distribution housing about another inch back (toward the front of the car) it wouldn't interfere.  I've had it out when instruments, clock, glovebox, etc were out and located the unit as far back as it will go --- the fan at the rear of the unit keeps it from going thru the passanger side bulk-head.

I like the use of the light, so I just let the unit sit on top of it, but so I can still barely actuate the switch.  This forces a slight bend in the plastic housing (for which I support to the dash with 1x2" steel plates (as in huge 'washers') under the plastic housing to keep the plastic from ripping apart/cracking under the supporting load).

Does anybody else with a Kuhlmeister have this problem too?  It was dealer installed in CA on orig. purchase (by orig. owner), so I'm surprised the unit would be designed to interfere with the under-dash light near the steering column on the right... or that it can't be installed without that interference.  I can cant it (rotate) the unit so the front isn't parallel with the dash front, and so the left end of the unit is pushed back behind the light, but that looked goofy when I installed it that way.  But the slight bend in the plastic housing to sit on top of the light looks a little goofy too.... just not as goofy as the rotated version.

I have 1 problem ??? with the fan clutch I think---- at least it's an annoyance if not a problem.

1)  When the engine (cooling water) temperature reaches just a tad over 80C and at higher rpm's (over 3K or so) I can hear the high whine associated with what I assume is the fan trying to suck more air thru the radiator & A/C heat exchanger.  I've experienced this sound effect before on my '65 Chevy pick-up when the fan shroud was slightly mis-placed.  Anyway, the higher the engine speed, the louder the whine.  

I assume that when the engine temperature reaches a tad over 80C the fan clutch engages and increases the speed of the fan.... creating the increasing suction thru the restricted air space, and hence the high whine of high velocity air going thru restricted orofices, increasing with increasing engine speed.

There's no extra whine when the engine's running cooler though... i.e. reaching running temperatures.  I've opened the hood when the engines running at operating temps and verified the whine is from the air sucking sound by kicking the rpm's up to 3000 - 3500.... and when the engine's cooler at 3K to 4K there's no sucking sound.  no pun intended, but this Sucks.

Does anybody know if this is common on 113's ('67 250SL, US) with AC heat exchanger restricting cooling air, or is this a problem with my fan clutch engaging pre-maturely?

Longtooth
67 250SL US #113-043-10-002163
95 SL500

hands_aus

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Re: Water Pump & Fan Cluch Replacement
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2003, 03:50:13 »
Hey Longtooth,
You say your engine speed is dying when in traffic. Your engine speed should increase by about 50 RPM when in gear with the air con or automatic transmission are engaged.
Is it possible that your constant speed solenoid/circuit is not working properly Or your linkages have some play in them which will prevent the solenoid from doing its job?
My 250 doesn't have air con so I can't help on the other issue.

Bob(Brisbane,Australia)
Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL #114, auto, ps , 717,717
best of the best

bayleif

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Re: Water Pump & Fan Cluch Replacement
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2003, 11:14:49 »
Hi Longtooth,
My Fridgking (sp?) unit sits completely to the right of the under dash light so it doesn't interfere. The unit is not centered in the dash but sits to the right. Just as well since my wife doesn't need the leg room I do.
Maybe it would help if you could post a picture of your dash and A/C unit.

Chuck Bartlett
1969 280SL

Chuck Bartlett
1969 Signal Red 4 Speed

Longtooth

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Re: Water Pump & Fan Cluch Replacement
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2003, 21:18:28 »
bayleif - my Kuhlmeister is as far right as it can get... snug against right side.  It overhands the compartment light (next to driver at right knee) by the length of the light... i.e. left end of light and left end of A/C distribution plenum are about even... A/C maybe even 1/2" longer... or so.

Bob - I'm checking on the solenoid suggestion you made.  Thanks.... the car doesn't die in traffic... but when AC is operating and engine is allowed to go to idle speed (below 1K rpm let's say), it kicks down to near 0 tries to recover back to idle speed, then down again, and finally dies (doesn't recover).  Since my 250's has a 4 speed manual tranny I can't say what happens when it's shifted into one of the automatic trans gears.

Longtooth
67 250SL US #113-043-10-002163
95 SL500

hands_aus

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Re: Water Pump & Fan Cluch Replacement
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2003, 06:02:51 »
Hey Longtooth,
The constant speed solenoid circuit works through the idle switch on the Venturi unit. If the idle switch is out of adjustment or NOT working at all then the constant speed solenoid won't work properly either. You could check your solenoid adjustment by running the car but leaving it in Neutral and just moving the solenoid plunger by hand. There should be enough travel to increase the revs to keep the idle speed constant. If there is play in your link arm ends you will loose effectiveness of the solenoid plunger. It will be obvious to see as you do the manual check.

You can see the solenoid working by turning the A/C on and off.

If it is working with the correct voltage the plunger will move the linkages and you will be able to see it move. You will also know if the idle switch is effective.

I think the Haynes manual discusses how to adjust the Venturi idle switch for the correct revs.

Bob(Brisbane,Australia)
Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL #114, auto, ps , 717,717
best of the best

bayleif

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Re: Water Pump & Fan Cluch Replacement
« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2003, 07:01:59 »
Hello Longtooth,
I drove the SL to work today for the first time in over a week. First time it's not supposed to rain. I looked at my A/C unit, and sure enough it comes to the left drivers side behind the compartment light. I guess I'm going to have to put a computer in the garage so that I make sure I know what I'm talking about when I respond. Sorry for the confusion.

Chuck (Face almost as red as his Signal Red 280) Bartlett


Chuck Bartlett
1969 Signal Red 4 Speed

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Re: Water Pump & Fan Cluch Replacement
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2003, 03:54:40 »
Hey Group (including Joe Alexander),
We had a 35C day here last week and I noticed my temp gauge above the normal position of 180F.
There was traffic congestion and I watched the temp gauge needle climb. As the traffic moved along and then picked up speed, the temperature of the engine cooled down but sill not to 180 F.
I did a check of my fan clutch and with a hot engine (switched off) it freely turned by hand.
I suspect that I need to replace the fan clutch on my car.
Should I be able to turn the fan when the engine is at normal operating or slightly higher temperature or does the fan clutch work on hotter engine temps?

Background, in February I had the radiator and cooling system flushed out and a new water pump, and inhibitor installed.

Bob (Brisbane,Australia)
early 250 SL, RHD
Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL #114, auto, ps , 717,717
best of the best

n/a

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Re: Water Pump & Fan Cluch Replacement
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2003, 05:36:31 »
I changed my fan clutch, water pump and while I was there, the front seal.
The car now runs at the proper temperature. The water pump that I replaced was an aftermarket (non-OEM)and did not exhibit any problems. I bought a pump from MB and compared the the two pumps. The impeller on the MB pump extends into the housing about 2+ mm more than the one I replaced.
Bob, I have not checked the tension on the new fan clutch when hot. However, if you can easily turn the fan when the engine is hot, then the clutch is in need of replacement.
After just reading the note below from Longtooth, I now know what is making that strange new noise. At highway speeds I can hear a high pitched sound; a whistling noise not previusly there. One of the maintenance books (BBB or Haynes) indicates that you can detect that the clutch is working by listening for the change in sound as the engine temperature increases and the clutch engages.
I also combed the fins on the A/C condensors. What a tedious job! Instead of grounding, I now know how to punish the kids.
As a result of all these things the system is now virtually new and cooling as it should.
Longtooth, Thanks. Not knowing what was making the new noise was driving me crazy.


Regards,
Stan

hands_aus

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Re: Water Pump & Fan Cluch Replacement
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2003, 04:42:04 »
Hey Stan,
Thanks for your reply.
I have been driving the car today and listening for the noise/whistle/whine.
There is a faint noise. The outside temperature is more moderate today at about 26C.
I think I will drive it more and watch and wait and see how the temperature gauge responds before replacing the fan clutch.
At least now I know what to look out for.
again thanks

Bob (Brisbane,Australia)
early 250 SL, RHD
Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL #114, auto, ps , 717,717
best of the best

hands_aus

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Re: Water Pump & Fan Cluch Replacement
« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2003, 04:00:43 »
Hey Group,

I replaced the fan clutch today.

Note:-
The genuine MB fan clutch was quoted at AUD $565.00 from one MB dealer.
My local MB dealer said he could supply an aftermarket unit at AUD $240.00.

The box was marked BEHR, made in Germany. There was no star on the clutch.

My question is to those of you who have replaced the fan clutch.

How did you centralize the spacer and fan blade on the Clutch unit so that it spins in balance and is not OFF CENTRE and out of balance?

I don’t want to cause any bearings or seals to be replaced prematurely.

I have been thinking of loosening the bolts until there is some play in them and run the motor for a little while.

That should force the fan and spacer to be centered.

Any suggestions greatly appreciated.

Bob (Brisbane,Australia)
early 250 SL, RHD
Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL #114, auto, ps , 717,717
best of the best

n/a

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Re: Water Pump & Fan Cluch Replacement
« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2003, 12:13:12 »
I don't think running the fan with bolts loosened will center the clutch. I think it would do the opposite due to centrifical force, just make it worse.

Any physicist out there who can confirm?

Shawn Rock
Philly, PA USA
1968 280 SL 4 speed

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Re: Water Pump & Fan Cluch Replacement
« Reply #23 on: October 04, 2003, 04:18:33 »
Hey Shawn and Group,

I solved the problem by loosening the fan belt and then giving the whole pulley and fan clutch arrangement a wiggle. I then tightened 2 bolts and started the car.
It was running with the pulley and fan clutch centered.
After turning the engine OFF I tightened the other 2 bolts and went through the procedure of running and visually checking. It was still OK.
From there I tightend the fan belt and I am back in business.
I should have loosened the fan belt before attempting to replace the fan clutch.
You can tell I am just a shade tree mechanic.

Bob (Brisbane,Australia)
early 250 SL, RHD
Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL #114, auto, ps , 717,717
best of the best