Author Topic: Have arrived at a restoration crossroads  (Read 5948 times)

lurtch

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Have arrived at a restoration crossroads
« on: June 15, 2006, 20:02:31 »
Hello fellow Pagodaphiles - -

I need some direction in planning the future of my 230SL  (1966). For the most part I have already achieved my original goal for this car. That is, I purchased it as an undefiled derelict and now two years later have it whipped it into reasonable shape.

I get immeasurable pleasure out of driving the car and plan to be tinkering with a Pagoda in one form or another far into my approaching retirement.

Now on to the real issue:

My car is  what one might call an "enhanced"  version of the model type. It is unique in positive ways because it has: 1)  disc brakes on the rear   2)  a now very healthy M130.980 engine  3) a high gear differential (3.27)  from a 280SE sedan   4) it was an Austin, Texas car so there is very  little chassis rust.


The only real big negative is:  Due to several serious outbreaks of rust-under-the-bondo,  I need to resign myself to begin getting paint estimates.  ( will 5K get the job done right? )

My dilemma is this:  ( ANY and ALL opinions are solicited and welcome )

Should I un-do the wrong stuff on it and make it a true 230SL  - - - OR - - -  sell  as-is then,  ratchet-up  to  get  a truer example of our beloved vehicle?

Regards, Larry in CA



Larry Hemstreet  in  N. Cal.

1966  230SL  (restored) Met. Anthracite w/ Maroon leather
1981  300TD-T (Concours condition, 86K, GETRAG 5sp.)
1982  300TD-T (parted out)
1986  560SEC (totaled)
1991  300TE (gifted)
1998  E320 (sold)
2004  E320 wagon (gifted)
2008  CLK550 Cabriolet

perry113

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Re: Have arrived at a restoration crossroads
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2006, 20:34:51 »
Reality

Your parts bill to do the right will be more than $5K not counting paint materials. Parts list:

Rear fenders
Rear valance
Inner fender wells
Outer floors
Inner & Outer rockers
Front & rear floors
Front fenders
Front radiator & bumper support
and figure more.

That's what it took to do my 53,000 mile 230SL when it was painted. The bill in 92 with sheetmetal was 17K. Gotta have someone who knows how to fit and weld. The hours are tremendous.
How's the interior and chrome?
Peter Perry
1970 911T Bahia Red
1972 911T Albert Blau
1963 220seb coupe barn
1965 230SL Light Ivory automatic
1966 230SL Havana Brown 4 speed Barn Find
1970 280SE living 3.5 donor car

Chad

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Re: Have arrived at a restoration crossroads
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2006, 21:54:29 »
This situation calls for a professional to really look it over and poke around for you and give you realistic estimates. It may not be so bad, it may be worse that you think and the full damage is awaiting a tear down to unmask. Many ways to do this, the unknowns involved force many to seek dry cars first and foremost. Anyway, have a professional who has knowledge about the older Mercedes or just a lot of experience check it out and go from there with that info. They need to have an interest in this kind of meticulous work, not many do. Anyway, how is your chrome?

If the professional paints a pessimistic picture, get a second opinion. If he paints a very optimistic picture, get a second opinion. If things are truly unfavorable, then just enjoy driving the car around the way you are now!! Or sell it whenever you want to obtain one that doesn't have these issues. A dry and original car is cheapest to obtain when it is still dry and original.

Anyway, if there is any significant type of rust, and you are not a strong DIY at the various stages of the process, then count on much more than $5k of monetary involvement. If you have a dry car with no rust/bondo, and you are not a DIY, then the $5k is certainly in the ballpark.

Enjoy.

1967 230SL (Manual)
« Last Edit: June 15, 2006, 21:59:16 by Chad »

psmith

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Re: Have arrived at a restoration crossroads
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2006, 23:56:20 »
Hi Larry,

A couple of thoughts...  If it's going to be a driver, then I wouldn't change it back but I would take it to a couple of people to check out the rust issues.  I think there are a few on the spreadsheet of local sources I sent you.  I have a few more I will send you offline.  If you want to go for a replacement, there is one in our local MBCA newsletter that has had all the rust repair done but needs the rest.  I think he wants $18k which now sounds a little steep as I type it.  I think we need to get together and kick some tire and scratch some heads to figure it out!

Pete S.

Mike Webster

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Re: Have arrived at a restoration crossroads
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2006, 07:29:10 »
Larry,

For what ever it's worth, I had some minor rust issues needing repair. Shop labor rate; $75/hr. total cost; $4000.00.

Mike in Detroit
230sl silver/red

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Mike

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Re: Have arrived at a restoration crossroads
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2006, 15:15:31 »
Larry, I agree with the good advice that you have received so far.  Having just gone through this exercise myself with a car that had very little rust, other than the trunk floor and rear valance which needed replacing, I spent well over $5,000 even though I did a lot of the work myself.  The amount of effort that it takes to do this work correctly is really astounding, if done correctly by removing everything from the car and taking it down to bare metal.  I would not do it unless you plan to keep the car.

Michael L. Hund

J. Huber

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Re: Have arrived at a restoration crossroads
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2006, 17:20:30 »
Hey Lurtch et al. I feel compelled to take a slightly different angle on this. There does exist such a thing as an economy paint job. (ouch, I can hear the insults already)... Various places do just paint with very little emphasis on bodywork. I am not talking Earl Scheib but close. If someone out there has a Pagoda they enjoy but have no illusions of it being a "totally restored" high-end car, I see nothing wrong with taking it to a moderately priced paint place for a freshen up. The money you save may allow you to do other things like carpet/seats etc. Best case scenerio -- car looks a lot better and you enjoy it for years to come. Worst case scenerio -- you sell it -- and I'll bet you get that money back versus trying to sell it in it's previous condition.

I did just that in 1998. They took down to metal, fixed a few rust spots, and eliminated several dings. Windshield out. Polyurethane & clearcoat I believe. 1350. I think Cees got an even better deal and his turned out very nice (I'm told). Mine doesn't look half-bad 8 years later (at least to me). And the makeover has allowed me to enjoy my car immensely...

OK. Let's hear it guys!  :?

James
63 230SL
« Last Edit: June 16, 2006, 17:23:03 by J. Huber »
James
63 230SL

Chad

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Re: Have arrived at a restoration crossroads
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2006, 20:11:51 »
James-I am with you 100%.
If you drive the car a lot and enjoy it, I just feel like it sinking tons of $$$$$ in the car can make it somewhat less enjoyable, in the sense that it now becomes an asset and something you worry about damaging. These cars are in a build quality range and value range that makes them perfect for daily drivers. I personally see no reason to make them garage/trailer queens. I wish I had the skills to do more work on them with my own hands.
Budget paint jobs with DIY in there is the way to go... but just consider what may be rust bubbling under the surface or bondo cracking because if there is significant rust, it really needs some degree of potentially expensive repair. At least for a cosmetic appearance that will last for a real length of time.

1967 230SL (Manual)
« Last Edit: June 16, 2006, 20:13:39 by Chad »

perry113

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Re: Have arrived at a restoration crossroads
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2006, 05:27:38 »
The big question in this decision is how much rust repair needs to be done. How much bondo over rust is there. What are your rear quarters and rockers like? Painting over bondo patches will only last for so long. How many rear quarters have we all seen that have the wrong shape because there made out of glass and poor patch work. If your rear fenders sound like the abvove description then you need to replace your rear fenders. And keep in mind once you cut them off you may find more rust in other adjoing areas.

There's a huge difference between a budget paint job and having all rust correctly repaired. Many of the Pagoda's I have seen living in the northeast that needed paint pretty much needed everything that my car needed and the sheetmetal bill was more than 5K let alone paying someone who knows how to properly fit and replace/repair the sheetmetal. Properly repairing all the rust in this process doesn't mean your making your driver into a garage queen.
Peter Perry
1970 911T Bahia Red
1972 911T Albert Blau
1963 220seb coupe barn
1965 230SL Light Ivory automatic
1966 230SL Havana Brown 4 speed Barn Find
1970 280SE living 3.5 donor car

Benjegen

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Re: Have arrived at a restoration crossroads
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2006, 20:50:22 »
I would first get an estimate what has to be done. If it is not too bad I would spread the expenses over some time and do what has to be done. I think everyone is doing this somehow and if the basic substance of your car (frame and underbody) is OK (no/minor rust, no accidents) I would keep AND ENJOY it.
BEN

J. Huber

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Re: Have arrived at a restoration crossroads
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2006, 22:31:04 »
Good points Ben, I especially like the capital letter ENJOY. That's what its all about.

As usual -- once I ponder something long enough -- I come up with new ideas... I have a second possible answer to Larry's dilemma. This one has to do with one's bank account...

Here's the hypothetical: I decided I had, say, another 10 grand to spend right now. The car I have needs a lot of TLC (paint, interior, etc.) but I could sell it as is for 12-15k. So I sell it. I could add that 10k to that and get a fairly decent car for about 25,000. Anyone agree with that one?

James
63 230SL
James
63 230SL

vincesy

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Re: Have arrived at a restoration crossroads
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2006, 18:48:37 »
Sorry, I'm trying to catch up on old threads.
So what was the decision?

Longtooth

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Re: Have arrived at a restoration crossroads
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2006, 03:13:39 »
Lurtch -

I think your question was:

 
quote:
Should I un-do the wrong stuff on it and make it a true 230SL - - - OR - - - sell as-is then, ratchet-up to get a truer example of our beloved vehicle?


Doesn't the answer depend only on

How much money you have to spare --- really! on reaching or going into retirement.

I've run across too many pre-retirement folks with dreams of "fixing up" their charished "classic" car.... that ended in more/less junk-heaps or were eventually sold as a wheeled bag of parts for somebody with some money available to restore & put back together... all due to lack of realistically assessing costs and equipment and too many half-baked attempts at DIY.

My suggestion, therefore, if it's possible, is to postpone retirement 2 more years, live as if you were "nearly" on retirement income, and use the extra available cash to do either of your choices... whichever one you want... both cost.... J. Huber's hypothetical (below) is a place start.

I offer this suggestion only because I watched several co-workers who retired several years ago with their post retirement plans to restore their "whatever" classic, including my father, I might add, and saw the results as abysmal... yes, they all had a lot of fun buying equipment, 'perfecting' their DIY methods and learning curves, but when all was said and done, they neither had a 'classic' to drive, nor did they ever get them into any actual better shape in real terms than they were to begin with.... fixed one thing right, but something else wrong... etc. and ended up spending more time and money than they'ed planned or thought it would cost.

So... I decided a few years ago that I'd spend now before I reached retirement so

1) I could actually have the car to enjoy in fact, and

2) have the economic options of DIY or have the pro's do it... and if I screwed up a DIY aspect, still have the funds to have the pro's undo my damage.  

Now, there's another side to this as well... my father actually spent 3 years after he retired taking several Autobody & Paint courses at a local Jr. College... buying equipment and learning what it took in both skill, time, and equipment... no bondo... using lead, welding with all types of metals and rigs... bending metal, etc.... and eventually painting and finishing.  Oh, and while he was at it he took some courses on various kinds of automatic transmissions.

He had a ball... and eventually asked me if he could use my '65 Chevy pick-up as a body & paint project.  Since my beloved C20 was a basket case of a body I said "of course"... what's to lose?... not much in the way of rust (being a CA pick-up), but it had been a farm hauling truck driven by kids from 8 to 80 for 10 years... so was banged up big-time... rails caved in, doors too... frame bent, etc.
 
So he did that... and it came out like a show truck... inside and out, no bondo since he was practising to do the work himself on his own 250SL and his 190SL.

So he worked on his own SL's (engine stuff mostly), and finally asked me if he could do my 250SL body and paint.  Now there was nothing wrong with the body... not an ounce of rust, no accidents, a few small dents here and there is all... but it was in dire need of a paint job.... so I said o.k.... "what's to lose"... so he did my 250SL... everything out, down to metal... and all the way back up again... my only restriction was that it couldn't have any orange peel.... so he did it with lacquer... solving the orange peel problem.  It came out beautiful for the most part... not quite show car level, but close enough for most purposes.  

Now both of these cars he did with the equipment and facilities available at the local JC's autobody shop.  He had every piece of equipment available and every expert available at his beck and call... help when he needed it, etc.

So after he'ed completed these projects of learning and skill development, with such good results, he decided it was time to to his own... but now he was no longer in the classes... didn't have the facilities or equipment available that he'd had doing mine.  So he went off to buy what he needed... no problem.... just money.... besides look how much he'ed save! To make a long story short he never did get his 250SL or 190SL taken down and painted... he'd run into too many problems with rust (he'ed purchased both his SL's while he lived in Europe.... so there was rust under everything... body panels for the 190SL werent' cheap... nor was fitting them easy... and in the long run he ran out of steam as the problems mounted and his skills weren't able to cope to the level he'ed thought they would/could... so he started shortcutting things... and this lead to other problems... and then his endurance and strength started to wain... so less time available than he'd thought.

He ended up selling the 250SL (manual) for $14k and the eventually got $8k for the 190SL... both of them mostly by then as parts on wheels.... all the parts were there... nothing missing, and all original.

I chalked my dad's and the other retiree's experiences up to a gross mis-match between what they thought they could do and what they could actually do and afford to do.  While my dad had the entire facilities and expertise and advice available from a full shop with every possible tool, he could do what the pro's could do.  Take all that away and he couldn't pull it off by himself to the level he thought he could.  I suffered watching this take place... my dad's pride in himself, his face-saving efforts going from bad to worse.  I even looked into leasing a local shop for him... costs were more than I could afford though... given the fact that the length of time I'd hav to lease the place was an unknown, all things considered.

So my suggestion is simply not to let your imagination exceed your earthly bindings.... make your decision with a hardened set of realism in time, money, and effort applied.

Longtooth
67 250SL US #113-043-10-002163
'02 SL500 Sport