Pagoda Test in CAR & DRIVER

[mdsalemi]

For those interested, the current issue of Car and Driver (should have arrived in U.S. Mailboxes within the past few days) has a test report on a 1971 280SL from the Classic Center in Irvine.  There is no apparent link or text on the C&D website, but the issue is August 2006, with the M-Coupe vs. Cayman on the cover.  The article is entitled, Convertible Currency, Part 2: Recycling a 1971 280SL at 2006 prices by Aaron Robinson.  Page 80

0-60 in 8.6 seconds?  Hmmm...maybe its time to take mine to Irvine for a tuneup...yep, that's what I'll do as soon as I get that *&^% distributor fixed.

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored

[n/a]

Michael I've been meaning to visit Classic Center in Irvine to see what their SLs look like.  In the CandD article did they mention the asking price for the 71?

Agree 0-60 in 8.6 sounds awfully fast!

Pete
69 280SL 4-speed
US spec, blackwalls

[mdsalemi]

quote:Originally posted by ivorysl

Michael I've been meaning to visit Classic Center in Irvine to see what their SLs look like.  In the CandD article did they mention the asking price for the 71?

Agree 0-60 in 8.6 sounds awfully fast!

Pete
69 280SL 4-speed
US spec, blackwalls

don't quote me exactly as I put the magazine away--but I want to say the $80,000 price range for this perfect (so they say) example.

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored

[hauser]

Got mine today but haven't had a chance to read it yet.  It's nice to finally see the Pagoda make to Car and Driver!

1969 280sl 5 spd
Gainesville, Fl.

[Chad]

It was an original and very low mileage car, as well.  Wasn't it Michael?

You know, $80k probably isn't so crazy for an excellent and UNrestored car, I think.
Will look for this article, a good find! Thanks.

I sure wouldn't want to try to make this 40ish year old car do 8.6 secs, whether it could do it or not -- no point in blowing it up.

1967 230SL (Manual, rustless driver)

[gugel]

This sounds like the $80,000 car discussed in this thread:

http://sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=5391

When I was at the Classic Center in February it was the only 113; don't know if they've gotten any others.

Hard to believe they would let Car and Driver thrash such an original car enough to achieve 8.6 seconds to 60.

Chris

[Vince Canepa]

They could not get to 8.6 seconds if they dropped it off a cliff. The best of the 113 cars barely get under 10 seconds.  This can be verified by looking at the acceleration runs for 113s at the various MBCA national events over the years.  C & D numbers have always been bogus.  Don't put much faith in them.

Vince Canepa
1967 250SL
113.043-10-001543
568H Signal Red
116 Caviar MB-Tex

[dwilli3038]

According to Road and Track June '63 test the 230SL did 0-60 in 9.7 sec. I have no data on the 280 SL but suspect there is not a major differance

Daryl
'64 230 SL
Serial # 508

[Douglas]

I've got to think that the equipment for testing this kind of thing today is dramatically different from 1963, so you can't really compare C&D's earlier stats with today's stats. In fact, I've got to think it's not even fair to compare one magazine's (or manufacturer's) stats to another.

Douglas Kim
New York
USA

[J. Huber]

Ok. First thing in the morning, I'm going drag racing. Want to see what 0-60 is 43 years later...

(I would now but the cab is kickin' in ... :| )

James
63 230SL

[Chad]

J.-- Don't forget the nitrous kit.
D.--By equipment/technology being different, do you mean a starter signal and stopwatch? On board race clock?
The difference is about/over one whole second.



1967 230SL (Manual, rustless driver)

[Douglas]

Hey, I agree that the acceleration time quoted seems optimistic, but my point was that you've got to put this number into perspective. Here's how Automobile Magazine describes the discrepancy in these tests:

"Since there is no industry-wide standard for car testing, every maker has its own pet procedures. Some test with less than a full tank of fuel, some with two passengers and luggage aboard. Doing our own tests is the only means of leveling the playing field."

I'm no engineer, but I've got to think even aside from methodology, you've got to factor in huge incompatibility when comparing old numbers to new numbers. If they're not using the same method, you can't truly compare the numbers.

Douglas Kim
New York
USA

[Raymond]

If there is anyone out there with a stock M-130 getting 8.6 seconds, I want to talk to him.  That's gotta be a typo.  Think about it, 170HP and 3,000 lbs.  I love my car, but it only goes that fast in my dreams.  Maybe they meant 10.6.

Ray
'68 280SL 4-spd Coupe

[J. Huber]

quote:Originally posted by Chad
.
D.--By equipment/technology being different, do you mean a starter signal and stopwatch? On board race clock?
The difference is about/over one whole second.

1967 230SL (Manual, rustless driver)

Maybe it was the ol': "eins, ally-gaytah. zwei, ally-gaytah. drei ally-gaytah..."

James
63 230SL

[TheEngineer]

Nah - the xx-ally-gaytah would provide an unacceptable time for zero to sixty. I was: Eins, Zwei, Drei. But we have here a nice, long down slope: I'll try to obtain some data.

[Chad]

I remember reading this portion of a post by Joe A. within a thread comparing the Euro vs. US w113 powerplants -- the textbite seems on-point somewhat here as well perhaps, the thread was from three years ago.

________________
"If you compare the 0-60mph (0-100kph) times in the Mercedes technical data books you will see that the times range from 9.0 seconds to 11.l seconds. Rear end ratio and transmission made the biggest difference not the engine type. Only ten kilometers per hour variation at top speed for all the models and all combinations!

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio"
________________
1967 230SL (Manual, rustless driver)

[J. Huber]

Well, the results of my first time trials are in! The hardest part was finding a flat straight-away around here. My timer was a small second & minute stop watch. So results are rounded off to the second. (Second hardest part was hitting the go button and stepping on it at the same time...)

My average was 0-60 in 4 to 5 seconds. Oh, that was Kilometers.  :oops:  

My best 0-60 MPH was 11 seconds. That was a Euro 3.75 automatic 230SL shifting thru the gears manually. I shifted at about 5500 RPM I think. Felt like a rocket to me, since I rarely step on it like that. Kinda fun. I plan to do a few more runs if I can find a decent stretch.

James
63 230SL

[Longtooth]

OK.... 0-60 test coming up in next 3 days.... tank 3/4's full, without a new tune-up or setting timing or gaps, but I'll make sure my tires have the right pressure... and on the high side).  250SL, 4 spd... I recently figured out I don't need to start from standing in 1st.... so I've already beat my normal time from the stop-light to merging onto freeway in morning by a healthy margin... I measure by looking at my speed when I pass the first sign after merging... and I accelerate to about 5500... 5700... using 2nd from standing start instead of 1st I hit 75 at the sign still in 3rd gear, instead of ~68 mph (< 70).  I always wondered why 1st was geared so low.... turns out it was for starting up from standing on a hill... or using engine to brake on a steep down-slope at very slow speed.  I read this recently in my blue manual ---- clutch is slipping a little in 4th at ~4000 when I stomp the pedal to the floor... so I was looking for what kinds of things (besides getting oil on the pressure plate) might be causing it.    

Anyway... back to topic... I can find any number or country roads near here to test 0-60... I'm guessing under 10 sec's though.... but time flys when you're having fun, so maybe it's really closer to 12.  I'll use a stop watch (a real one --- I used for timing at swim-meets... to hundreths of a sec.... not that a few hundreths is significant... repeatability of human timers is no better than +/- 5/100s at best anyway).

Side-topic... I kinda wish our CA freeway speeds would dip a little... like 70-75 since my milage at 80-85 mph is starting to get outta-hand.  Of course I could drive in the slow lane with the trucks, but something inside me still has a healthy dose of the adolescent... so I end up in the fast lane on a 4 lane freeway (8 lanes both ways).... zinging along at 85... accelerating to 90 - 95 from time to time.  Feels good though.... so I go by the ol' motto, if it feels good do it.

Longtooth
67 250SL US #113-043-10-002163
95 SL500

[enochbell]

OK, let's get real here.  I quote from the original Car and Driver test of the 1964 230sl (4sp):

"This is either the most substantial solid light car, or the quickest most agile heavy car we have ever driven. The driving sensation, particularly as related to the seat design with its almost chair-height, and the angle of the steering wheel, are exactly like the Mercedes sports coupes-the 220-SE and 300-SE.  The only important difference is that the 230-SL feel very tiny, and very [italics are the magazine's, not mine].  The driver's impression is kind of whimsical - as though a big, plush Mercedes touring car had been toouched with a magic wand and transformed into a lithe, impatient thoroughbred without losing any of its town car-reapectability.

The road test in 1964 shows 0-60 @ 9.9 secs., standing 1/4 @86 mph with 4sp and hard top on.

It would be interesting to see the road tests for the W113 as it grew in displacement and weight through the model history, but I don't believe the 0-60 ever got much better.  
Also, I recall reading somewhere (wish I could put my hands on the source) that the bhp/liter for this engine was the highest of any production engine of its day.  Hard to believe, would love to learn more.

Best,
g


'64 230sl, fully sorted out...ooops, spoke too soon

[enochbell]

oops, I left out the full quote, it reads

"very fast"

g

'64 230sl, fully sorted out...ooops, spoke too soon

[Chad]

Greg:

I think many cars of the era had higher bhp/liter displacement than these Mercedes. The italian sportscars almost universally did. Even some Giuliettas I've had with the little jewel of a 1297cc engine pumped out great power and a throaty exhaust.

For example the Alfa Giulietta Spider Veloce had the 1300cc engine I4 -- about 90-100hp. This was somewhat better than the 230/250/280 series.  Just one example.

And thank you very much for the Injection system PDF file!!!  I am reading it now.

Thanks

1967 230SL (Manual, rustless driver)

[Vince Canepa]

I saw the C & D issue with the very, very, did I say very, brief article on the W113.  The time quoted is NOT for 0-60, but for a rolling start 5-60.  This makes a huge difference.  Add at least 1 second, pbobably more like 2 seconds for a standing start 0-60 time.

Vince Canepa
1967 250SL
113.043-10-001543
568H Signal Red
116 Caviar MB-Tex

[Longtooth]

Did my 0-60 test... full tank, without hard-top, but with my 260 pound passenger son with the stop-watch... '67 250SL 4-spd... engine rebuilt (long block) , injectors, etc. about 10k miles ago. No tune-up, but timed with new points and plugs about 3k miles ago. Shifted at or slightly above 5500.  

11.5 sec's avg of 3 trials... 11.6, 11.3, 11.4 rounded to nearest 10th of sec's... but discovered my clutch is slipping a wee-wee bit nearing 5000 - 5500, so it'll do better when I get that fixed.... and letting my 260 lb. son watch from the side-lines.  

I also tried doing this starting in 2nd instead of 1st.... thinking like my rolling starts from stoplight to freeway, I'd save time and reach faster speed without the extra shift.  Didn't work.... 14 sec's starting in 2nd instead of 1st.... same conditions as above.

I don't think I'll get below or even down to 10 sec's though... boo-hoo.  Considering though, that the top end acceleration in 3rd and 4th is spectacular... say from about 4000 to 5500, what do I care with the standing start 0-60 time?  I like the high speed acceleration at 75 - 95 mph more anyway.... nice rationalization, huh?

Longtooth
67 250SL US #113-043-10-002163
95 SL500

[mulrik]

Hi there Longtooth
You shoudn't shift at 5500 RPM, but should try to accelerate with the RPM around your maximum torque. I'd say shift at ~4700 or whatever gives you most "average" torque on either side of the torque maximum. In theory accelerating around maximum torque will give you better performance than up to max HP.
Keep us posted.
Enjoy
Ulrik


'67 250 SL Papyrus White 113043-10-000023

[Bob G ✝︎]

Nice car ,but gee I like to talk with CAR & Driver and see what methods they used to arrive at their conclusions of 0 to 60 MPH times. I have one of thoses gagets you attach to your winshield to do the results of off the line drag racing and time trails very good write up on this one and  I meet the engineer who designed it.
My point is to conclude a 0-to 60 in 8.6 seconds seems like a typo to me. Someone needs to conclude this with a good old fashion time trail at lions speed way, who wants to volinteer to do a 0 to 60 run against CAR & DRIVEr and the Classic Centers 280SL?
Bob Geco