Author Topic: mu-mu-mu-my pagoda (Read 89348 times)

al_lieffring · « **on:** July 29, 2006, 09:20:40 »

Wasn't that a song by The Knack in '79?

I haven't ever heard the term Pagoda used to refer to the entire series of 113 roadsters before. I only used it to refer to the object that was wrapped up in a blanket over in the corner of my garage when I was out driving around with the canvas top down. Most likely with The Knack blasting out from the Europa II's under dash casette player. I wonder what happened to that casette player. I bet I sold it at a garage sale for $3.00 or something stupid like that.

BTW I'm 49 years old today

113-042-10-014715
built 11 Jan 66
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition- rust bucket

keesing · « **Reply #1 on:** July 29, 2006, 09:33:43 »

HAPPY BIRTHDAY AL!
1967 250SL Signal Red
1969 280SL "Tweety Bird Yellow"
1987 260E Charcoal

joelj · « **Reply #2 on:** July 30, 2006, 08:45:22 »

Happy b day Al

Joel

1969 280sl auto
White exterior
Blue interior

Douglas · « **Reply #3 on:** July 30, 2006, 10:05:06 »

Happy birthday, Al. I think your comments about not knowing the name "Pagoda" are true for most Americans. That was a nickname primarily used in Europe for the W 113 SL.

One of the nice things about this group is that it has helped to increase the knowledge about this particular mode worldwide, right down to its nickname.

My personal opinion has always been that the car deserves to assume its place in history with a nickname, just like the W 198, aka "Gullwing."

Douglas Kim
New York
USA

dwilli3038 · « **Reply #4 on:** July 30, 2006, 13:16:29 »

Happy Birthday Al,

I hope you are planning to take your Pogoda out of the garage and dive it around Athens so I can see it on the road

Daryl

Daryl
'64 230 SL
Serial # 508

al_lieffring · « **Reply #5 on:** July 30, 2006, 18:30:41 »

quote:
Originally posted by dwilli3038

Happy Birthday Al,

I hope you are planning to take your Pogoda out of the garage and dive it around Athens so I can see it on the road

Daryl

Daryl
'64 230 SL
Serial # 508

Hey Daryl

My younger son (Nicholas) is 18 and had decided that "we" should fix up the Pagoda so that he can drive it around.
First step will be pulling out the engine and replacing the piston rings.
Long story as to why, so anyhow it will be a while before it's wheeling around Athens, but stop by any time and have a look see.

Al Lieffring

113-042-10-014715
built 11 Jan 66
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition- rust bucket

al_lieffring · « **Reply #6 on:** August 01, 2006, 07:31:38 »

Nick and I spent yesterday afternoon winching the powerplant out of the pagoda. It was 98deg under that shade tree.
Today we're off to the China import tool store to buy a motor stand and begin our tear down.

113-042-10-014715
built 11 Jan 66
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition- rust bucket

ja17 · « **Reply #7 on:** August 01, 2006, 16:23:03 »

Hello Al,

Keep us up to date on your engine tear down. We will help where we can!

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio

Raymond · « **Reply #8 on:** August 01, 2006, 20:21:06 »

When I read Athens, I wondered if you meant Georgia. Then when I saw you hoisting the engine with a pine tree, I didn't have to ask.

Like Joe said, there's a lot of help here. Have fun.

Ray
'68 280SL 4-spd Coupe

al_lieffring · « **Reply #9 on:** August 01, 2006, 22:04:11 »

quote:
Originally posted by Raymond

Then when I saw you hoisting the engine with a pine tree,

Nick was nervous about if the tree would hold or not. Not about getting hurt, but about the tree falling on the car. It was only bending over about an inch or two. No oak trees with 6" dia branches around here, not in my back yard any way.

Building these engines (m127,m129,m130) was what I did for 15 years of my life, but I'm finding out just how much I have forgotten over the years since. It is kinda frustrating when I read some of the posts on the forum, knowing that I had fixed most of these problems before, but don't remember all of the details on how I did it.

having fun
Al Lieffring

113-042-10-014715
built 11 Jan 66
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition- rust bucket

66andBlue · « **Reply #10 on:** August 01, 2006, 22:41:14 »

quote:
Originally posted by al_lieffring
.... Building these engines (m127,m129,m130) was what I did for 15 years of my life, ...

Hello Al,
in a different topic you wrote "My father and I opened up a Benz repair shop in Kansas City and I specialized in 113 repairs and restorations"
I am curious, where was it and what was the shop called?
Regards from KC!

Alfred
1966 blue 230SL automatic

al_lieffring · « **Reply #11 on:** August 02, 2006, 09:03:52 »

quote:
Originally posted by 66andBlue

quote:
Originally posted by al_lieffring
.... Building these engines (m127,m129,m130) was what I did for 15 years of my life, ...

Hello Al,
in a different topic you wrote "My father and I opened up a Benz repair shop in Kansas City and I specialized in 113 repairs and restorations"
I am curious, where was it and what was the shop called?
Regards from KC!

Alfred
1966 blue 230SL automatic

Our shop was called Lieffring.
In 1976 we moved from a building by the Robo Car Wash in Waldo, to the vacant Faddas Chrysler building at 63rd and Main in Brookside.
It's now owned by Emery Zanagal and called Star Motors.

Al Lieffring

113-042-10-014715
built 11 Jan 66
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition- rust bucket

al_lieffring · « **Reply #12 on:** August 03, 2006, 14:40:26 »

hey Ya'll

Nick and I got the engine torn down, I've been trying to locate a set of piston rings, went to the local Benz dealer, they tried to be helpful but couldn't find any thing that showed up as available.

Maybee I'm looking for the wrong thing.

The engine I have is a factory replacement short block. I know that they were made with internal parts from later production engines, the longer 108 rods instead of the 127s. And the pistons fitted have a higher wrist pin bore, also 3 rings instead of 4.

So here is where I become confused the pistons are marked Mahle, have a Benz logo inside the skirt, on the top they are marked +.25 but when I measure the bore, the block is is the std. 82mm.
I found this table;

http://www.deves.com/devesrings/cars_MERCEDES_BENZ.html

This makes me wonder if this replacement short block came from the factory with M180 pistons (std. 81.75 bore) and are the first repair size to make them 82mm to match the M127's bore. , Do you think I could just find the set of rings I need? Or do I need to dig deep and buy a set of .5mm oversize pistons and go with a fresh rebore.

We are not out to do a "chrome and powder coat" restoration on this car, just want to get it running and looking presentable, so a little puff of smoke every now and then is'nt a big concern.

I know you guys like pics to look at,

Download Attachment:

broken ring.jpg
36.65 KB

Thanx
Al Lieffring

113-042-10-014715
built 11 Jan 66
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition- rust bucket

Cees Klumper · « **Reply #13 on:** August 03, 2006, 19:20:22 »

Dan Caron has recommended Deeves piston rings in the past if you are just going for replacement rings, I would give them a call with your details and see what they suggest. There are also engine parts sellers (Metric Motors in California is one) that should be in a position to give good advice in your particular case, so maybe get a second opinion from them.

Cees ("Case") Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic

al_lieffring · « **Reply #14 on:** August 04, 2006, 16:31:30 »

I got in touch with Mike at Metric Motors in California. And he confirmed my theory about the pistons being for a smaller bore 2.3l. engine and the oversize was to make them match the m127's stock bore. Pistons with a +.25mm bore are rarely used, because an engine with enough wear to need rebuilding will require a bore +.50mm or bigger.
So all I needed to do was measure the width of the ring grooves and now a complets set along with a new head gasket will be on its way Monday, via the big brown truck. The car hasn't been running for 20+ years, I didn't think I needed to pay extra for overnight delivery.
To me patience is a virtue, you might take a different view if you'r sitting behind me in traffic.

Going by the Deves chart would have been a best guess, that turned out to have been correct. But now I have the assurance that in fact this will work.

Thanks for the reccomendations
Al Lieffring

113-042-10-014715
built 11 Jan 66
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition- rust bucket

al_lieffring · « **Reply #15 on:** August 06, 2006, 13:11:37 »

While Nick and I are waiting for the engine parts we started on repairing the front suspension and brakes. When I aired up the tires to load the car onto the trailer to move from Iowa to Georgia, The suspension stayed in the same position as the tires raised it up.

By putting a grease gun on all the fittings, I found that they all took grease except for the right upper outer. Because in the past I learned that this was the most likely point of failure I had the replacement adjuster/pivot kit on hand for both sides.

The camber cam bolt came out easily, they ususaly need to be cut out with a torch. There I found the castor adjustment pivot was frozen into the king-pin just as I had suspected.
I got the siezed pivot out by removing the king pin, puting it in the vise, then heated the top of the king-pin with a torch till it glowed orange. I tried turning the pivot with a pair of vise grips before it cooled, but it wouldnt budge so I put a 10mm bolt through the center hole and MIG welded it to the pivot. I put a little more heat on the king-pin then put an impact wrench on the bolt. The pivot started to turn right away, stoping at about 1/2 turn I reversed the impact and ran it in and out, each time it would turn a little further untill it was fully out. I didn't cool the part with water, let it cool on its own then went to reassemble with the new castor/camber/pivot kit.

Because the motor was out I had to come up with a way to get the front end back together without the weight of the motor to compress the spring. I started out by assembling the king pin steering knuckle and A arms without the spring in place, then took out the 4 lower inner controll arm bolts, reinstalled the spring, then I used a floor jack to get the arm back up as far as possible, this came to about 6 inches from the subframe before the front end came up off the stands. I then used 2 lengths of 7/16 all-thread about 8" long in place of two of the controll arm bolts, used them to pull the A arm the rest of the way up with an air ratchet, put bolts into the 2 open holes, removed the all thread, put the other 2 bolts in and then tightened them all down with the impact wrench. It realy made a tough job a lot simpler.

Monday we are going to repack the front wheel bearings and replace the front brake hoses. The right front brake was dragging. The caliper wouldn't retract untill I opened up the brake bleeder. So I'll be putting new brake hoses all around. Will tear into the rear brakes and parking brake cables later in the week.

Al Lieffring

113-042-10-014715
built 11 Jan 66
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition- rust bucket

al_lieffring · « **Reply #16 on:** August 12, 2006, 10:28:29 »

After I got the kingpins back to rights. I pulled the rotors off to repack the wheel bearings. The left rotor had been machined down so thin that even though over 1/2 of the lining is still on the pads, they are against the spring tab. The parts counter guys at the local Benz dealer are getting annoyed that I keep coming in to buy parts for this old a car. Even though the owner of the dealership is the father of one of Nick's best friends, I doubt we will be annoying them any more with our project.

After repacking the R. side bearings, we tore down the left side and found the bearings were pitted from sitting for so long. Because berings are bearings, I went to the NAPA store in Watkinsville hoping they could match up the numbers and order them, The woman at the counter poked at the computer for about 20 minuites but said she couldn't find them, she showed them to the guy that runs the store and he walked into the back and came right back out with 2 complete sets of bearings with the matching numbers.
The NAPA part numbers are:
BR2 for the outer
BR6 for the inner
This would indicate to me that these are a very common part on American RWD cars, I'm not sure which ones though.

I removed the grease seals by driving out the seal and the inner bearing cage together with a hammer handle Through the small bearing end. This will often remove the seals without damage and I was able to reuse them.

I'm still waiting on the front hoses from MB dealer, now I need to find a pair of rotors.

Does and one know, if the original (Girling?) calipers have been replaced with Tevis (ATE) do I need to get 230 rotors or the 250/280 rotors? Is that what is different or is it the hubs that are different?

Al Lieffring

113-042-10-014715
built 11 Jan 66
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition- rust bucket

ja17 · « **Reply #17 on:** August 12, 2006, 11:40:24 »

Hello Al,
If I recall correctly, only the calipers are different and the original rotors will work with the later calipers.

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio

dwilli3038 · « **Reply #18 on:** August 12, 2006, 18:41:45 »

Al,

The guys ere in Athens would not even talk to mme. I find much better cooperation from Atlanta Clasic car (near intersection of 316 and I85)

Daryl
'64 230 SL
Serial # 508

rwmastel · « **Reply #19 on:** August 13, 2006, 09:33:08 »

quote:
Originally posted by al_lieffring

Does and one know, if the original (Girling?) calipers have been replaced with Tevis (ATE)?

Yes, you can replace your Girlings with ATE.

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both tops
1994 E420

Naj ✝︎ · « **Reply #20 on:** August 13, 2006, 10:58:14 »

Hi, Al,

quote:
if the original (Girling?) calipers have been replaced with Tevis (ATE) do I need to get 230 rotors or the 250/280 rotors? Is that what is different or is it the hubs that are different?

Different rotors are listed in the parts book for a 230SL from 250/280SLs. Diameters are different. :twisted:
230s: 110 421 0112 Diameter 253mm
250/280s: 115 421 1112 Diameter 273mm

naj

68 280SL

al_lieffring · « **Reply #21 on:** August 15, 2006, 18:39:56 »

Different rotor diameter, that explains it, that would mean the caliper mounting holes on the spindle would be drilled farther out from the center on a 250/280. Thanx,

I tore into the rear drum brakes, We are not faring much better there. The pistons are rusted up solid inside the wheel cylinders, the bleeders broke off when I tried to open them, the parking brake pulleys are locked up and the cables are frayed 3/4 of the way through from rubbing against the ceised up pulleys, when I went to remove the cylinder the metal line was rusted paper thin and snapped off at the fittings. also no fluid dripped out of the open lines so the rubber hoses must be pugged up too. at least the shoes and drums are useable.

I got one cable pulley apart, derusted, freed up and greased, but Monday the piston rings and head gasket came in with the UPS delivery, So I dropped the brakes project and dove back into the motor, I fitted the new rings to the pistons and got them back into the block this evening.

I may try to run new cable through my old park brake housings and fabricate some end clevices. It couldn't hurt. They are already broken.

Al :O)

113-042-10-014715
built 11 Jan 66
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition- rust bucket

66andBlue · « **Reply #22 on:** August 15, 2006, 19:53:03 »

Hey Al,
are you sure you don't want to move back to KC?
We sure could use your knowledge around here!!

Alfred
1966 blue 230SL automatic

al_lieffring · « **Reply #23 on:** August 29, 2006, 21:30:59 »

Yesterday I took a field trip to Douglasville to check out Bud's Benz. Google maps showed it as a 95 mile trip. Thought it would be a good idea to actually check out thier operation.
My engine is now all built up on the motor stand but I need some odds and ends before I can hoist it back into the engine bay. The main thing I am holding on is a pair of brake rotors, the car needs to be on wheels to get it out under the hoist in the tree. The local auto parts store showed a set of rotors on thier computer, but when they came in they were the larger dia. rotors for a 250-280sl.

At Bud's I gave them my list of parts and as they were filling the order I went around the back and was looking through thier Pagoda grave yard. I'm sure most of you would be more interested in all the meticiously restored pagodas, the 300sl roadster and the like up in the shop. But I love scrounging through the parted out bones of discarded old pagodas.
Whyle forraging around I found the stock crank pulleys for alternator and power steering that I need to convert my motor back to non A/C configuration. I asked if I could pull it off the motor myself and have them add it to my bill. They didn't have a problem with that. My order still wasn't ready so David Williams walked me through the workshop. The most activity was going on in the trim shop section. I was realy impressed, back when my father and I were building SL's the aftermarket tops and trim parts were of marginal quality and the interior pieces from Benz were very very pricey and often took 3 to 6 months to get delivered.
Back at the parts counter I found that the rotors, the main thing I was looking for were out of stock, But they will ship them to me without freight charges. I guess I should expect something like that dropping in unannounced. But it was definately worth the trip. I don't think I'll mention how much $$$ I spent there though.

Too much fun for one day

Al :O)

113-042-10-014715
built 11 Jan 66
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition- rust bucket

al_lieffring · « **Reply #24 on:** September 08, 2006, 17:38:37 »

Hey Ya'll

I havn't posted an update on project pagoda lately, so here is where we are.
All the hydraulics are installed blead out and working properly, mechanical parking brakes working too.

The engine is now residing in the engine bay and bolted to the mounts, the head bolts torqued (I torque them after installing the motor because I use the head bolts to attach the chain sling to the motor) Valves adjusted clutch blead and adjusted, trans fluid drained and replaced.
When I got the clutch slave hose installed I found the clutch master cylinder stuck at the bottom of the travel. I dug through my spares and found 3 master cylinders for various different MB sedans and one that was a match for my 230. It looked like brand new, still in the poly bag, but when I installed and blead it out it was stuck at the top of the travel. I took them both apart by removing the snapring and trying compressed air to force them plunger out, too stuck to move I then tried pressing the plunger out of the bore with a long drift punch inserted through the fitting hole at the bottom. On the fist one I took apart pressing the plunger out damaged the rubber for the weep valve. So when I took the second one apart I held the drift punch slightly to the side. This one came out but the metal cap was dented. But between the two there were one complete set of useable parts.

Put the cylinder back together, installed and blead the clutch and now it is woring perfectly.

Yesterday we sand blasted the rims so we can paint them before we get new tires mounted, Today I ground out a few rough spots and primered them, they look slick in pristine white primer. Somehow I ended up with a bunch of old snow tire rims, The spare wheels that people had to leave thier winter tires mounted year-round (before the invention of all-season radials). Nick had never heard of snow tires and wondered why the car had truck tires on it.
I think I put the blue rims and tires on a 108 sedan that my wife drove back when we first got married. I ended up with a bunch of rusty rims in 5 different colors. I thankfully made sure that they all have the "bumps" for the center hub caps.

Next step flushing out the fuel tank so it doesnt pump a bunch of rusty sludge into the injection pump, and getting the electircals back in the engine compartment. 20 years ago I started to pull the wiring harness out, planning to do a bare chassis restoration. That's not going to happen now so I will do some soldering on some broken connectors and plug it all back in.

Al :O)

113-042-10-014715
built 11 Jan 66
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition- rust bucket

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Author Topic: mu-mu-mu-my pagoda (Read 89348 times)

al_lieffring

keesing

joelj

Douglas

dwilli3038

al_lieffring

al_lieffring

al_lieffring

al_lieffring

al_lieffring

al_lieffring

al_lieffring

al_lieffring

dwilli3038

al_lieffring

al_lieffring

al_lieffring