mu-mu-mu-my pagoda

[al_lieffring]

Hey to all

I am still having fuel starvation problems. Yesterday morning I drove into Athens for Sunday School. When I started out the fuel gage showed a little below 1/2 tank, the trip is about 30 miles, it should have been no problem getting there. About 2 miles before my exit the reserve light came on, this didn't seem right, but the reserve, i thought, would take me another 40 miles or so. Going around the clover leaf exit the motor started to starve for fuel. The motor kept running at the stop light but when climbing up the grade to the Church parking lot the motor started to starve again. I rolled into a parking spot with the motor stalled, and it wouldn't restart. Andrew drove to church seperatly so I rode home with him.

I went back to get the car this morning with gas can in hand. Before I added any fuel to the tank I turned on the swith the gage showed 1/4 tank I could hear the air purge out of the fuel lines and the pump load down once they were filled, the motor started right up.

This indicates to me that when the tank is below 1/4 full the baffled well (flower pot) is getting pumped out faster than the fuel can flow back in. I guess I need to drain the tank, check the screen, remove the float sensor to see what kind of junk is in the bottom of the plastic baffle and look for a way to open up the passages without sawing the tank in half.

What would happen if I were to drill (by hand, not wise to use a electric drill here) a couple of holes through the plastic with a 3/8" paddle bit and get some more fuel to flow in?

Owning a 40 year old car sure can make life into an adventure.





66 230sl
113-042-10-014715
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition: not-as-rusty-as-before-bucket

[ja17]

Hello Al,

You are literally running out of fuel when the fuel level in the tank becomes lower than the top rim of the "flower pot".  Most likely the intake port of the flower pot is blocked with crud.

You can drain the tank, remove the fuel sender in the trunk and use a wire to clear the intake port in the "flower pot". After all the fuel is safely drained and stored, the tank can be flushed. You can use compressed air and a long nozzle to clear the port, working through the fuel sender opening. Be cautious around the gas fumes. Best to work outdoors in a well ventilated area. Contaminatd fuel or water should be disposed of properly and safely.

If you drain and dry the tank before you begin you should not generate much or any waste. Fuel can be strained, filtered and reused.

Download Attachment: flower pot 8.JPG
63.13 KB

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio

[glennard]

Dear Pagoda Paisanos, JA is right about the fuel return line.  "When there's blockage in the Shroud of Fuelin, There will be no Pagoda Tourin".   The best way to get the rust out of the fuel tank is to turn the car upside down and shake it-the rust will come the open level sender hole.  Seriously, makeup gasoline to the inside of the Shroud of Fuelin comes over the top and/or the four corners of the square space around the 10 mm fuel return line at the base of the Shroud.  If rust accumulates in the tank, this passage is blocked and the fuel pump is starved when the gas level is below the top.    Carefully, carefully(gas explosion hazard precautions) drain the tank fully, vacuum the rust out (with a long hose to a vacuum tank-no motor running).  Otherwise, buy a new tank for mucho $$$.

[mdsalemi]

quote:Originally posted by glennard

Dear Pagoda Paisanos, JA is right about the fuel return line.  "When there's blockage in the Shroud of Fuelin, There will be no Pagoda Tourin".   The best way to get the rust out of the fuel tank is to turn the car upside down and shake it-the rust will come the open level sender hole.  Seriously, makeup gasoline to the inside of the Shroud of Fuelin comes over the top and/or the four corners of the square space around the 10 mm fuel return line at the base of the Shroud.  If rust accumulates in the tank, this passage is blocked and the fuel pump is starved when the gas level is below the top.    Carefully, carefully(gas explosion hazard precautions) drain the tank fully, vacuum the rust out (with a long hose to a vacuum tank-no motor running).  Otherwise, buy a new tank for mucho $$$.

As one who had done this curious and expensive exercise let me say this: if you have rust in your tank, where did it come from?  Did you add powdered rust by mistake?  Did it come from that El Cheapo gasoline you bought?  Probably not.  It comes from the tank itself.  If you have rust in your tank, the metal surfaces are compromised.  Anything short of replacement of the tank is a temporary measure.

Your time is best spent not trying to avoid the tank and or line replacement, but working overtime to pay for it...

Good Luck Al!

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored

[al_lieffring]

Joe
Thanks for the part# for the gasoline filters, Local MBZ has 2 coming my way, and thanks for posting the flower pot pic. Now I have a better idea where to look for the rust clog.

Michael

Back in August when I took out the drain plug from the tank and nothing came out though the tank was 1/2 full, I knew that eventualy I would need to replace the tank.
I unfortunatly have already replaced the tank once, about a year before I quit driving the car, (1980)
I'll just do what I can to get by till I can pony up the scratch to get a (another) new tank.




 


66 230sl
113-042-10-014715
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition: not-as-rusty-as-before-bucket

[ja17]

Hello glennard,

I am not sure using an electric vacuum around all those gas fumes is a good idea (explosion hazard as the fuel fumes get sucked near the electric vacuum motor). I have a small portable compressed air vacuum which just plugs into my shop air hose. This is safe and works well.

Try draining the tank, removing the fuel sender, filler cap and drain pug, then thoroughly dry the inside of the tank with a air hose. When the tank is dry and fume free, flush the tank with a less flammable liquid (even water). Dry the tank again, strain and filter the saved gasoline for re-use or use it in something less valuable, like your lawn mower.

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio

[al_lieffring]

Hey to all

I drained out the tank and pulled the float sensor to look for the blockage that was starving my fuel delivery. I put a piece of hose from the fuel pump to a fuel can and used the pump to empty the tank. The pump would empty the flower pot in about 5 seconds and then only a trickle of fuel would come out. It took about 20 minutes to get that last 5 galons out of the tank. I removed the fuel pump fuse and ran a jumper from the battery to the #4 lug on the fuse box so that the pump would run without power to the ignition, to avoid overheating the coil.

Once the tank was emptied I took a LED flashlight and looking through the float sensor hole found that there was a buildup of crud in the outer ring of the flower pot, and then used a blower nozzle with an extension made of 1/4"  metal tubing that I bent to shape to get into the hard to reach areas.


Being the eternal optomist I figure there can only be a finite amount of crud deposits up in my tank and after a couple of cleanings and filter changes I gan get my tank to a managable state of cleanliness. I don't think this is a new buildup, but an area that I didn't get cleaned out in my first attempt at flushing out the tank.

It may have turned out to have been a good thing that I got those diesel filters with a much highter level of filtration, to keep all that junk away from the injector pump and nozzels. I bought two filters anticipating the first one would clog up right away. I have the second one installed now (also a diesel filter) and I might as well leave it in for a while so that any remaining loose pieces stirred up when I cleaned out the flower pot will get strained out.
Then I will change back to the full-flow gasoline filter after about 2 or 3 more tank fill ups (MBZ parts counter just called 5 minutes ago saying the filters were in). I think I'll keep the spare filter and a 13mm wrench in the trunk just in case. I'm also a realist.

Merry Christmas



 




66 230sl
113-042-10-014715
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition: not-as-rusty-as-before-bucket

[Naj ✝︎]

Merry Christmas Al,
 

quote:Once the tank was emptied I took a LED flashlight and looking through the float sensor hole found that there was a buildup of crud in the outer ring of the flower pot

The crud may be coming from the inside of the fuel return line. May be worth checking/replacing.
I used an old outer heater cable thru the return line to clean the area marked in your picture. Works well.
Glad to hear you 'stuck' with the diesel fuel filters. I use them all the time and find no disadvantages or fuel starvation problems during normal use.

naj

68 280SL

[al_lieffring]

Hey to Ya'll

I still havn't found my fuel starvation problem. The car will start up instantly and run strong for about 20 miles then it stumbles on acceleration, getting progressivly worse and finaly stalling. Switching from the diesel filter to a gasoline filter didn't seem to make any difference. Yesterday I took the car out and after a short while it started acting up. It stumbled and bogged down barely making it up hills, running even worse when shifted down to lower gears. I finaly got to my destination and noticed that I couldn't hear the fuel pump running from inside the car. I crawled under the wheel well and put my hand on the fuel line to check if it was doing anything at all. It was turning but just barely detectable. After sitting about 20 mins I turned on the key and could hear the normal fuel punp whine and the motor started right back up and ran for about 10 miles then started acting up again, I pulled off the road and again almost no sound from the fuel pump. I parked and let it rest for about 10 minutes, started it back up and made it the rest of the way home.

I am reluctant to start throwing expensive parts at the car in the hope the problems will go away. I still have the original large style fuel pump, and would like to keep it if at all possible. I have a second hand late style pump that doesen't sound like it runs at full speed when installed.

My next step will be to power up the fuel pump with a jumper from the battery to the fuse box and leave it (the pump) running for about a half an hour and then check the voltage, ground connections, the fuel flow etc and see if I can reproduce the same symptoms in the shop as I am finding out on the road.

If any one can think of something else I should be looking at please let me know.

Thanx I realy all the help I have been getting from ya'll



66 230sl
113-042-10-014715
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition: not-as-rusty-as-before-bucket

[rwmastel]

Sounds like you've found a likely culprit.  Search the forums for fuel pump rebuild and you'll find lots of info.  No need to spend hundreds($$$) on a pump when you can spend dozens($) on a rebuild kit.

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both  tops
1994 E420

[mdsalemi]

Al,

Check the wiring harness from the trunk to the fuel pump.  When I had similar problems (AFTER the fuel tank issue which we discussed) I went to replace the fuel pump (thankfully I was given one so it didn't cost me anything) and discovered that during the restoration, the wiring must have been cut, and then replaced with crimp connections under the car which were then taped up.  All looked well, but the + wire just fell off.

I would NEVER have discovered this had I not removed the pump!

What they SHOULD have done is pull the wires back through the grommet in the trunk floor.

My solution was new wire affixed in the trunk (no crimps outside the car body!!!)

Have not put a lot of miles on it since the fix but it seemed to correct a problem.  A dangling + wire that makes a poor connection might not have been the source of my issue, but it couldn't be good.

This fuel pump works 100% of the time.  Any issues such as low voltage will cause problems as I've discovered.  May your issue be as easy as wiring.

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored

[glennard]

Al, Now that you're in your sixth decade--.   If there is crud in the tank bottom, it will block the makeup gas into the quart size 'Shroud of Fuelin' when the tank level is below the top of the plastic container.   The make up gas must enter around the 3/8" return line from the injection pump.  This is the area between the circle and a square. A test for free flow is-  1. Have tank level below the top of the Shroud.  2. Set a 5 gallon bucket under suction hose to the electric fuel pump.  3. Loosen the suction hose between the tank and the electric fuel pump.   4. Drain into bucket.  If the tank is 'cruddy', the gas will run fast for the quart or so in the Shroud then slow as the restricting crud blocks the flow.  If the tank is not cruddy, the flow will be constant until the tank is empty.  Obviously, reconnect the hose before---
   I have had tanks that drained the one quart and stopped, zero, da nada.   Dropped the tank, drained it, turned it upside down, shooked it, vacuumed it-   good for another ten years.

[Naj ✝︎]

Hello Al,
I had this fuel starvation problem on my 230 when I first got it. It had been stored in a barn for 12 years and the fuel lines had rotted from the inside. The crud from the feed line landed in the fuel filter and easily removed, but the sediment from the return line ended up in the tank and blocked the line to the 'flower pot'.
The car would run okay even upto 50 miles in the winter, but once the weather warmed up, it was good for just 10 to 15 minutes. Fuel was not circulating and I believe the little fuel in the electric pump just churned about, warmed up and evoparated. That caused the car to stall. There is a bleed screw on the main engine filter and if I let some fuel run out of it for about 20 seconds - till some warm fuel ran out, the engine would start and run again for a while.
It took about 3 months to find the blockage and once the radiator repairer cut the tank open and cleared the blockage, the car ran fine.
Maybe you want to try the bleed test the next time it stalls...
Hope this helps.
I was in Ga. last week but Bishop was a bit out of the way of my travels. Maybe next time I will stop by...

naj

68 280SL

[George Des]

Al,

As I recall from some of your earlier posts, this car sat for quite a while. If so, it would not surprise me if the fuel pump was cruded up both inside the pump housing and the motor portion. Sitting idle with old gasoline is one of the biggest killers of these pumps for two reasons. First, the gasoline tends to congeal in the pump housing freezing up the vane. It is not good enough to just clean the inlet filter! Attempts to run the  pump once this happens can cause the windings to burn out or the main seal on the shaft to lose its ability to seal gasoline from the motor portion. This usually results when one tries to force the vane loose--there is a small tang which secures the main bellows seal to the shaft and this can break off allowing the seal to "float" on the shaft. Second, if any gasoline had leaked past the seal and made its way into the motor area, it tends to combine with the brush and commutator residue to form a paste like substance which tends to harden over time causing further problems--this most often occurs  on pumps that have seen lengthy service with high brush and commutator wear. If the brushes or comm are excessively worn they also can cause intermittant operaton of the pump motor. The good news is the pump can be rebuilt even if the comm looks beyond wear limits. As someone else indicated, there are plenty of posts covering this. Hope this hlps.

Georg Des

[al_lieffring]

Hey Ya'll

I have been running tests to track down my intermittant fuel starving, and much to my shagrin have found nothing conclusive. :x

First off changing the fuel filter seems to have made no difference, second if the tank is full or low doesn't seem to matter either.

Next test I  removed the fuel pump fuse and ran a jumper to the #3 fuse tab through an ammeter to the battery (+). I left the pump running for most of the afternon (with a small charger attached to keep the battery from running down). The pump drew 4.6 amps with no change as it ran for about 3 hours (circulating through the fuel loop with the motor not running). I checked the pump volume at the return line from the pressure damper on the motor mount arm, and it pumped out a litre of fuel in about 15 seconds.
I then made an adapter to attach a pressure gage at the CSV fitting and the pump was producing about 12psi, and again I left the pump circulating fuel as the car sat in the garage with no drop in the pressure for over an hour. I re-checked the main filter, the tank screen and the inlet screen on the pump a few flecks of junk but not enough to make the car stall, I blew compressed air through all the lines. I disconected the PerTronic Ignition and reinstalled the points, condensor, and black Bosch coil because an intremittant HEI can also give similar symptoms.

With a fuel pressure hose running through the one of Kuhlmeister dash holes to the gage hanging from the rear view mirror I took the car out for a drive.

 
The same symptoms as before, the car drove for about 20 minutes, the fuel pressure slowly dropped to 0 and the car eventualy stalled. I turned off the ignition and turned it back on. The pressure came back up for about 10 more miles, the motor stalls again, with the gage showing 0 I check the voltage at the pump and have 11.5 volts. I get back home and try installing my late style pump. I had to install a T fitting (the parts shop was closed, had to wait for another day to get one) into the return line for the bleeder fitting. I then attached the pump to the bracket with a couple of cable tie straps.

Again I take to the road with the gage still hanging from the mirror and again at 20 miles the pressure slowly drops to 0. I get home before the motor stalls, I remove the gas cap no noticable pressure or vacuuim, I loosten the fuel lines at the filter housing and fuel streams out but the pressure didn't come back up till I turn off the key and turn it back on again.

I drove the car again and went about 30 miles and the pressure stayed up for the entire test drive. That was last night and I havn't had a chance to try it again. Maybee if I am lucky whatever it was has pushed its way through the system and it will be OK for a while. I am going to leave the gage attached 'till I'm sure the problem doesn't come back.

Because the possibility of having two faulty pumps of two different styles that have the exact same symptoms is very unlikely, So I will be puting the original pump back, and reinstalling the PerTronics.

Tomorrow I have a job up on the north side of Athens, will see how it runs and let ya'll know.





66 230sl
113-042-10-014715
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition: not-as-rusty-as-before-bucket

[al_lieffring]

quote:Originally posted by George Des

Al,

As I recall from some of your earlier posts, this car sat for quite a while....

Georg Des

George and all

Before I first attempted running the pump (September) I removed and took it apart and found the impeller and screen was full of gunk like you said. I cleaned out the impeller, the screen, and got the tiny key back on the impeller shaft, took off the brush cover, could not smell gas or burnt insulation inside the motor housing, cleaned the commutator (almost no wear) blew out the dust with compressed air. About 2/3 of the brushes are remaining, and once the crud was cleaned from the impeller housing, the shaft turned freely.

The pump motor doesn't seem to be getting warm after it has been running for long periods. And on the bench it pumps like crazy, 10psi circulating, 15psi max. and 4 liters per minute.

If I am overlooking something I don't know what it would be.

Again thanks for all your help





66 230sl
113-042-10-014715
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition: not-as-rusty-as-before-bucket

[hands_aus]

quote:Originally posted by al_lieffring

quote:Originally posted by George Des

Al,

As I recall from some of your earlier posts, this car sat for quite a while....

Georg Des

George and all

Before I first attempted running the pump (September) I removed and took it apart and found the impeller and screen was full of gunk like you said. I cleaned out the impeller, the screen, and got the tiny key back on the impeller shaft, took off the brush cover, could not smell gas or burnt insulation inside the motor housing, cleaned the commutator (almost no wear) blew out the dust with compressed air. About 2/3 of the brushes are remaining, and once the crud was cleaned from the impeller housing, the shaft turned freely.

The pump motor doesn't seem to be getting warm after it has been running for long periods. And on the bench it pumps like crazy, 10psi circulating, 15psi max. and 4 liters per minute.

If I am overlooking something I don't know what it would be.

Again thanks for all your help





66 230sl
113-042-10-014715
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition: not-as-rusty-as-before-bucket

Hey Al

There is a fuel damper in the system. I was wondering if that could play up?
I believe they are almost never replaced or serviced.

What else is there that could reduce the fuel pressure?

it isn't
the fuel pump
the pump filter
main fuel filter
fuel lines
tank filter

Is the return inlet of the tank clear?

In discussions of the past it was mentioned that if the return to the 'flower pot' was blocked the fuel would sit in the lines and eventually boil causing vapour lock and fuel starvation.

Let me say this was discussed as a summer problem, however the engine bay of our cars gets pretty hot in all seasons.

The 3hr test you did in the garage provided a conclusive +ve test of the fuel pump.
However it was carried out with the car stationary with no bumping around so a constant fuel flow situation would exist.
While out driving the particles in the 'flower pot' would be moving around and end up blocking the return fuel inlet to the 'flower pot'.

scratching bald spot looking for answers.....

Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto

[al_lieffring]

Hey Ya'll

I drove the car into Athens this morning, and the fuel pressure stayed at 11psi for the entire trip and back, and on a short errand this afternoon. I would have liked to have found something more conclusive as the cause, but for now, I am back on the road again.
If it acts up again I start shopping for a new fuel tank.  

Cees
I have a spare fuel damper in my collection of spare parts, and I did try changing it, but failed to mention it in my list of test procedures, I changed it at the same time I reinstalled the points.

The damper is just a diaphram with a spring behind it. The damper is there as a noise buffer for the fuel return line. Don't see how it could make the pressure drop to 0 but I changed it out any way.

After dinner I'll be puting back the original fuel pump and reinstalling the PerTronic kit.





66 230sl
113-042-10-014715
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition: not-as-rusty-as-before-bucket

[rwmastel]

quote:Originally posted by al_lieffring

I get back home and try installing my late style pump.....Again I take to the road with the gage still hanging from the mirror and again at 20 miles the pressure slowly drops to 0.  I get home before the motor stalls.

I remove the gas cap no noticable pressure or vacuuim, I loosten the fuel lines at the filter housing and fuel streams out but the pressure didn't come back up till I turn off the key and turn it back on again.

I drove the car again and went about 30 miles and the pressure stayed up for the entire test drive.

Sounds like a possible blockage in a fuel line near the filter or diaphram?  For a strange blockage example, see J.P. Mose's problem:
http://index.php?topic=4995

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both  tops
1994 E420

[al_lieffring]

Hey Ya'll

I can't believe that I havn't posted a update on this thread since January. I realy havn't been doing much more than making minor adjustments with the mixture timing etc as I drive the car around town running errands. I have been leaning out the main rack one click at a time and have gotten it to where I am getting fairly decent mileage (for these cars) and it still makes good power without cutting out on cold start. I will leave it alone for the time being and just drive it.

When I was having the fuel starvation problem I removed the line fuel line form the #7 injector and had my fuel pressure guage attached there. That way I could at least get an indication about 5 minuites before the motor would stall. About two weeks ago I decided that I could trust the fuel delivery again and removed the gauge and re-attached the #7 injector. First thing I noticed was the idle was suddenly richer. Easy enough, I took the pintle out of the valve and cleaned up the taper with a Scotch-Brite pad and that eliminated the drip. But now that the valve is working again my car won't restart without a long crank and holding the throttle half open. It cold starts in the morning just great. And with the valve not operating it was restarting better than I remember it ever had in the past.

I may have to find some kind of temp swith that with a relay will either cut out either the #7 injector or open the ground to the enrichment solenoid when cranking up the warm motor. I have a dozen of so temp switches from emission controlls on 70's and 80's cars. Will have to do some experimenting. And because I am flooding out I sure don't need the extra fuel from the 1 second switch. I am now running with it unpluged. I also have several thermo time switches maybe the one I have now is staying on too long on warm starts.

I powered up my Becker Europa the other day, I found out that it is not a Europa II stereo, just a mono. The original tunes that were in the car when I got it was a tube type Becker Grand Prix with 3 bands and a signal seeking "Vunder Bar" tuner. The radio was dead when I got it and I only kept the face plate that fit the smaller radio opening of the 230 dash board, I adapted this face plate to bolt onto the Europa so that I could have a transistor radio in my dash. Of course now 30 years later I realise that I should have stuffed the old GP in a box and kept it. One thing that I did stash away was a 7 pin DIN jack that fits into the accesory plug on the back of the Europa. Since the "going back to original" ship had sailed away 30 years ago I went to Radio Shack and bought a miniature 1/8" headphone jack and mounted it in the faceplate next to the tuner knob and ran co-ax wires back to the DIN jack. Now I can plug a portable CD or MP3 into the front plate of the radio or unplug it and use the tuner.
Now I have to learn how to download music into an I-Pod, or I could just use my old Walk-Man casette player.



Another thing that I had stashed away was plug in style ignition switch and harness plug fron an old sedan that I had parted out. I had always wondered if the plug in style /8 ignition switch with the radio accesory circuit would work on a pre 68 lock assembly in place of the screw terminal switch. The bolt pattern is the same, and it fits right in place. The plug in switch has 3 more terminals than the screw terminal switch. there is the radio circuit, marked "R" and two plugs for both terminal 15 (switched power) and terminal 30 (unswitched power). One at a time I cut off the screw terminal rings from the harness and soldered the plug connectors on in thier place. Both terminal 30 and terminal 15 pins are bussed together so it doesn't matter which one is used. I ran a wire from the R circuit out to the fuse block on the right fenderwell next to the voltage regulator and back into the radio. And yes, it works. Now the radio accesory circuit has power when the key is in the #1 and #2 positions.
 
Annecdotal Flash Back Warning!
When we were kids we got a kick out of our 60 220S that said "Fart" on the ignition switch. And did you know that the key is also removable from the #1 garage position?

Sunday I left the car out in the rain and found the hardtop is leaking around all the windows, over the windshield and dripping out through the mirror and sun visor openings. Reseal hard top, one more thing to put on the list.

Ya'll have fun now. Hear?




66 230sl
113-042-10-014715
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition: not-as-rusty-as-before-bucket

[enochbell]

Al,
Great post, you are twisted a bit more than I would have predicted for such a youngin'.

You say you are flooding out on warm start?  Are you sure?  Humor this old man and wire that valve on the intake to a momentary switch and see if that might do the trick.  I actually use about 2 seconds of gas while cranking to get mine going when warm, and it works great, "your actual results may vary..."

Best,
g



'64 230sl, fully sorted out...ooops, spoke too soon

[waltklatt]

Al,
Wow, you really have a rare engine in your car.  A #7 injector, that means you have a 7 cylinder engine in your car.  Whew, what does the power feel like?
Heehee!
Walter
1967 220SL-diesel- only 4 cylinders with 65 HP.

When I was having the fuel starvation problem I removed the line fuel line form the #7 injector and had my fuel pressure guage attached there.

[al_lieffring]

quote:Originally posted by waltklatt

Al,
Wow, you really have a rare engine in your car.  A #7 injector, that means you have a 7 cylinder engine in your car.  Whew, what does the power feel like?
Heehee!
Walter
1967 220SL-diesel- only 4 cylinders with 65 HP.

When I was having the fuel starvation problem I removed the line fuel line form the #7 injector and had my fuel pressure guage attached there.

Walt

When the Bosch D Jetronic EFI first came out I think it was the Volvo shop manuals that called the cold start valve the #5 injector. Because the Benzes we were working on had 6 cyls, in our shop it was called the #7 injector.

Al

66 230sl
113-042-10-014715
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition: not-as-rusty-as-before-bucket

[hands_aus]

quote:Originally posted by al_lieffring

Hey Ya'll
maybe the one I have now is staying on too long on warm starts.

66 230sl
113-042-10-014715
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition: not-as-rusty-as-before-bucket

Hey Al,
I use a 12v led clipped to my cold start valve terminal as a visual  test device.
If it comes on and then times out when starting a cold engine,  you know the TTS and also the relay are working.

I am sure you know of the 'remove inj pump rod test' for hot idle

I think the car is still running way too rich even when hot.

Of course if the Inj Pump is old and not rebuilt then the check valves in it could need to be replaced. If the fuel can leak back after sitting for a while, this will contribute to you needing to hold the start key position longer and possible flooding.

To circumvent that situation on my car, I let the main fuel pump 'prime' the system for a while before starting it, hot or cold.

Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto

[al_lieffring]

Hey Ya'll

I spent some time last night trying to sort through my hot restart issue.
When I drove this car back in the 70's I had a primer button under my dash to give the CSV an extra shot of fuel before I would start the car. The conventional wisdom was (is) these cars need more fuel to get them started. One of my goals is to get the injection set up to where it will start without cranking for 10 seconds followed by the plume of grey smoke and to eliminate the need for a button hanging under my dash board.

The first thing that I found out was that on my car both the pump solenoid and the CSV are wired in paralell. I had always thought that the pump solenoid engaged any time the starter was cranking, and the thremo-time controlled the CSV. I now know that there were many production changes over the years on how these were wired.

I found out that on my car when either starting aid is disconnected the hot restart improves. I had been driving the last couple of weeks with the one second timer unplugged and the CSV disconected and the car restarted better than it ever had before.

Also the thermo-time switch is delivering the right amount of fuel on a cold start up when connected to both starting aids.

I took off the cover on the one second timer, found the calibrating screw and set it as close tp 1 second as I could.
With the 1 sec. timer switching on only the CSV and the pump solenoid disconnected the motor warm-starts almost instantly without touching the throttle.
In fact when I checked the start up  with a test light connected to the  pump solenoid the motor never warm-starts untill after the power to the solenoid switches off (with or without the CSV connected) and then the motor stumbles for about 2 or 3 seconds untill the excess fuel clears out.

I see two options here, 1. I could connect a temp switch to open the ground on the pump solenoid when the engine is over 100deg (f) the problem is where to put it. I could scrounge around and maybee find a thermostat cover for a m130 sedan and put one in place of the 212 switch because there are no extra holes tapped out on a 127 motor for mounting one.
Or 2. I could install another relay and have the 1sec. timer controll only the CSV. And the thermo-time and cold start relay controll the pump solenoid seperatly. I have extra relays, and I like to solder, I think this is what I'll try next.

It's a sunny day, I think I'll go ride my unicycle instead.

 



66 230sl
113-042-10-014715
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition: not-as-rusty-as-before-bucket