Author Topic: Clamps in the Engine Bay  (Read 17876 times)

Ed Cave

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Clamps in the Engine Bay
« on: September 06, 2006, 17:12:23 »
I did a search and got some, but not all of the information I was looking for so please pardon the content duplication...

I know that many of the hose clamps in my engine bay are of the incorrect style. Several of the clamps are cad plated and I'm pretty certain they are correct but I count (14) silver "worm type" clamps that I know for sure are incorrect. (12) of these appear to be the same size, about the diameter of a US nickel and (2) on the hose from radiator to coolant overflow tank are perhaps slightly smaller than a dime. Several questions I could use some help with:

Gemi or Norma? I understand gemi's are correct but are they available? Would a Concours judge pick up on the difference between the two? Any good sources on where to purchase either of these?

Do my counts sound correct? (12) + (2) smaller ones? Does anyone know what sizes these things really are? Did I miss some in there?

You guys all know I am not the most mechanically adept member of this board so I could really use some guidance here. Thanks in advance for your input on this subject.

Lots of photos of the engine bay exist here www.motoringinvestments.com click "Mercedes" then "Finished Product Engine Photo Page" Thanks!

Ed Cave
Atlanta, GA


1971 280SL
1973 911S
2004 A4 3.0
2006 GS430

Tom230sl

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Re: Clamps in the Engine Bay
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2006, 18:38:34 »
Funny, i am in the process of dealing with this very same issue. I believe most of the clamps were gimi with a galvanized finish. A different style was used on the radiator. Cotter pin style also with galvanized finish was also used (heater core) . As far as I know, Norma are available but are a slightly different construction and are chrome/zink finish, thereby making them incorrect. Best bet is to find used ones, clean and replate them.  And IMHO any judge worth his salt  would pick up on this.

mdsalemi

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Re: Clamps in the Engine Bay
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2006, 18:39:09 »
Ed and all,

I wrote and posted this a while ago on the "other" 113 site.  I hope that it provides some good info for you.

For those fairly new to the Pagoda restoration hobby, it is important to review the kinds of hose clamps whose names are often bantered about and make some distinguishing comments about them. Clamps are an item on the MBCA Concours score sheet and are thus one element of originality that judges look for; therfore if historical accuracy is what you are after, judged or unjudged, having this knowledge is useful.

First, let's review a typical American hose clamp, since this is what we DON'T want on our cars. They typically have a stainless steel band, but NOT a stainless screw, though you can find them in all stainless if you look. This band is flat; typically 1/2" in width; and perforated with screw threads. The worm-drive screw runs in those perforations. And, therein lies the "problem" with these: the perforated band damages the end of the hose; the flat edge of the band does the same; and the 1/2" width isn't attractive or appropriate, but yes it does work and is fine if "inexpensive, easy and working" are your primary concerns.

The Eurostyle (my word) clamps are similar but with improvements: first, they are generally 9MM in width which gives a nicer look; the band is not perforated but rather embossed; and often times the edge of the clamp is rolled. These kinds of clamps provide a nicer look; and they don't damage the hose.

Wurth sells a variety of these Eurostyle hose clamps. Zebra is one of their brand names and features the items I listed above. Most foreign auto parts stores, even those here in the land of Detroit Muscle, stock these kind of clamps. Any independent Mercedes, Porsche or VW repair facility should probably have them too.

Other brand names of clamps are Gemi and Norma. Norma clamps typically retain their circular form throughout the clamping range, and they don't use a worm-drive screw, but rather a screw on the top. Gemi clamps are quite similar. There are other brands out there, such as Serflex, and ABA. All of these are reusable. There is another style that is probably more typically an OEM rather then aftermarket, and that is the kind where the banding material is sold by the foot er meter, and the actual clamping mechanism is sold separately. If one is "making" a lot of clamps I believe this would be less costly and typically why it might be OEM used in the factory. If I am not mistaken these are a "use once and throw out" kind of clamp--which is why you often see a mix in older cars. The original OEM clamps made from this banding, and then when one has to change a hose or a clamp, it is replaced with a reusable clamp.

There's always been quite a debate as to which is the "correct" clamp to use. The best answer to that is first, don't use the American-style clamps as they are certainly NOT correct! Other then that, I believe any of the German clamps as noted would be acceptable for Concours and also be acceptable as original style. I believe that any of the usual suppliers--the dealers, Miller's, Bud's, BenzBarn and the rest of them should be able to sell or get the proper clamps. Lo and behold they are not expensive.

Note of course that there are now Chinese exporters making German style clamps so Caveat Emptor.

Some useful links:

http://www.wurthusa.com
http://www.abaofamerica.com/
http://www.norma.de/
http://www.belmetric.com/

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid
2024 Ford Mustang Mach Ex PEV

69280sl

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Re: Clamps in the Engine Bay
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2006, 20:10:59 »
Peter Lesler (I'm probably spelling his name wrong) had sets of correct hose clamps at Blacklick last year. He may be able to supply you.

Gus
68 280sl
Signal red/beige
Gus

68 280sl, signal red/ beige/black softtop. Car # 1084

66andBlue

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Re: Clamps in the Engine Bay
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2006, 20:14:01 »
Hello Ed,
I needed to replace all the clamps in my 230SL also and I came up with a total of 4x 16 mm (diameter), 20x 19 mm, 8x 26mm, and 2x 46 mm. I would have liked to get 2x 40 mm in addition but this size was not available when I ordered. The larger ones are for the radiator hoses. All of them are adjustable by about +/-  1 to 2.5 mm in diameter depending on size.
I had called Norma-USA and since they don't sell to individuals they referred me to the Winzer Company [http://winzerusa.com/]. They were very helpful and indeed the stainless steel clamps (NormaClamp S - Product number 540.xx.9, where xx = diameter in mm) cost about $1.10 - 1.30 each. I consider this a reasonable price for stainless steel clamps. eBay seller usually advertise them in the $6-$10/each range.

Alfred
1966 blue 230SL automatic
Alfred
1964 230SL manual 4-speed 568H signal red
1966 230SL automatic 334G light blue (sold)
1968 280SL automatic (now 904G midnight blue)

Tom230sl

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Re: Clamps in the Engine Bay
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2006, 20:42:54 »
Alfred, that price is certainly reasonable but wouldn't stainless steel be incorrect?
« Last Edit: September 06, 2006, 20:43:52 by Tom230sl »

Ed Cave

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Re: Clamps in the Engine Bay
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2006, 21:41:02 »
Guys:

Wow! Great response. In order;

Michael - Great 'big picture' perspective (as always)

Gus - Do you know how to contact Peter?

Alfred - Now that's the kind of info I was looking for! Thanks!

Tom - Wondering why you question the stainless steel. It would look essentially identical to a galvanized (or any other brite silver) finish but should offer the most durable option. Do you think anyone would really look at correct style clamps and say, "hey, hang on a second, those look like they might be stainless steel"?

Now I know Douglas must have something to add to this but for now, thanks very much, guys.

Ed Cave
Atlanta, GA


1971 280SL
1973 911S
2004 A4 3.0
2006 GS430
« Last Edit: September 06, 2006, 21:41:33 by Ed Cave »

Tom230sl

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Re: Clamps in the Engine Bay
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2006, 22:28:08 »
Are you trying to say that I'm too anal: )
I guess what I think is the correct\original finish is more of an imperfect tin-like silver-gray of galvanized, rather than the highly polish jewels of stainless clamps. The two look quite different.  
Maybe I need to get out more often!


Tom Colitt

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Re: Clamps in the Engine Bay
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2006, 03:37:05 »
I read your post and while I did find a limited source of the correct NOS Gemi clamps for the restorations in my shop, unfortunately it's not enough to offer for sale.

However, I am currently offering the original style windup clamps that were used on 230Sls 250Sls and 280Sls for the heater hoses in the engine bay as well as some of the smaller hoses such as those at the thermostat tower and the brake booster vacume hose.  
I'm not sure if this link works:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=008&item=180026028270&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMESC%3AIT&rd=1

If not, you could search for parts by seller: lovemycarz

Regards, Tom Colitt

Tom Colitt

mdsalemi

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Re: Clamps in the Engine Bay
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2006, 06:04:53 »
Hi Folks,

Having been through the MBCA Concours Judging school I can tell you that as long as there is consistency in the clamps, and that they are the narrow-band German "style" as I indicated, you won't be deducted points or shouldn't be, at least.  ONE American clamp will have you losing points.

But enough of that rot.  Any clamp will work.  The German style are an improvement--they look better and they don't damage the hose as the Amercan styles do.  They won't break the bank of even the stingiest of restorers.  So, it's a good idea to use them.

Those wind up clamps are cheap; they were used because they were inexpensive.  They are quaint, and perhaps will get you a smile from a knowing judge and all, but offer nothing else to a 113 owner except a certain "look"; if that's what you are after--great.  Try some of our German suppliers and restoration houses, I'm sure someone can find a supplier.  Keep in mind that they are inferior to the other clamps we are discussing here and were designed for one-time use.  Get stuck on the road somewhere with them with a burst hose, and you'll see.  You'll end up with an American clamp as a replacement from Pep Boys or the local plumbing shop.  They are best left to "period" restorations that must be correct.

Nobody will deduct points for SS versus galvanized either.  If you search hard enough you can find proper clamps in a galvanized construction (I found some from Taiwan and China), but we all know galvanized is inferior to stainless.  So, use them only if you are trying to achieve a certain look.

On all non-structural items on my car that don't require a Grade 5 steel fastener or something similar, I've used Stainless Steel.  Hose clamps included.  My old BMW 320i had stainless and bronze hardware on the muffler system; when I went to change the muffler after 5 years and 50,000 miles, it simply unbolted with no effort whatsoever.  Try that with galvanized...

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
« Last Edit: September 07, 2006, 06:58:15 by mdsalemi »
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid
2024 Ford Mustang Mach Ex PEV

rwmastel

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Re: Clamps in the Engine Bay
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2006, 07:35:21 »
quote:
Originally posted by Ed Cave

Gus - Do you know how to contact Peter?

Ed,

His username on this forum is W113SL.  See a post by him here:
http://index.php?topic=565

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both  tops
1994 E420
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Did you search the forum before asking?
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Tom230sl

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Re: Clamps in the Engine Bay
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2006, 20:24:30 »
It's good to know that judge's will not mark you off for modern clamps, it certainty makes things easier. So if I use matching red anadozied clamps from a german manufacturer I'm cool (kidding)? I'm, not looking to get flamed here,  just too stupid to shut up. I guess it's hard to know where to draw the line. We all wrestle with that that thoughout the process of a restoration. Do you put on the original, maybe inferior, clamps or go with more modern superior and convenient alternative? Do you powder coat (easier and superior) or do you paint? two-stage paint or single stage? stainless vs steel exhaust? Certainly would last longer.  To one person it matters and is a reasonable concession, yet to another not.  I think if it is a show car putting the clamps right is important. Two otherwise equal cars on the lawn which do you think will get the nod from the judge?
« Last Edit: September 07, 2006, 22:26:21 by Tom230sl »

cth350

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Re: Clamps in the Engine Bay
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2006, 20:35:02 »
where to draw the line.  Well, in my case, I have a 230SL that is getting a perfect paint job or as close to it as I can afford. I removed virutally everything inside and outside the car (the suspension system got left behind so they could roll it around).  Now to put everything back.

Sure some of it is ugly, but if I run across a new steering wheel and feel like putting it in, that's one less ugly part.  Then there are the less than perfect bumpers, the less than perfect grill, all the way down to the nice red, but used set of seats and carpets.

This will be a great looking car that gets driven.  That's where I draw the line.

-CTH

66andBlue

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Re: Clamps in the Engine Bay
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2006, 21:24:54 »
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Colitt
If not, you could search for parts by seller: lovemycarz


Tom, I did but it appears that you are sold out since nothing shows up under your seller's name. I am not interested in the hose clamps but do you have a hood strap left to sell? If so send me an email please.

Now back to the comments by Tom230SL. Since I have no intentions to show my car I go for what lasts longest and is compatible with the original appearance.  For me that rules out red hoses (which were on my car and annoyed me constantly) and red clamps, but stainless steel clamps are very correct for me.  Others might like some color under the hood, why not?
BTW Tom, are you planning to add some close up shots of the engine bay in your post in the "Photo Gallery".  I would love to see the final results.

Alfred
1966 blue 230SL automatic
Alfred
1964 230SL manual 4-speed 568H signal red
1966 230SL automatic 334G light blue (sold)
1968 280SL automatic (now 904G midnight blue)

Tom Colitt

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Re: Clamps in the Engine Bay
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2006, 22:27:53 »
Actually, one might think the wind-up clamps were used because they were cheap, but in fact they were/ are more expensive than the other styles. The fact that they wrap around the hose several times gives them a very nice, uniform fit on the hose and I have found original connections even today that have never been apart and yet, not leaked or damaged the hose. I think that's the reason Mercedes used them.
As usually, they use certain designs because they are well-engineered, not cheap. In fact installation would be a little more "expensive" with these wind-up clamps as well. I also have been able to reuse these this type of clamps a few times with no problems. The main draw back is that the plating doesn't hold up like the stainless, which is why they work best for those restorations that are looking for the correct look and originality on their cars.

Regards, Tom

Originally posted by mdsalemi[/i]

Hi Folks,

Those wind up clamps are cheap; they were used because they were inexpensive.  They are quaint, and perhaps will get you a smile from a knowing judge and all, but offer nothing else to a 113 owner except a certain "look"; if that's what you are after--great.  Try some of our German suppliers and restoration houses, I'm sure someone can find a supplier.

Tom Colitt

Tom230sl

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Re: Clamps in the Engine Bay
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2006, 22:55:16 »
[/quote]

Alfred.
The "original" post by Ed Cave put the question context in terms of a "show car" and what a judge would react to. I can appreciate your position and preference for your car, however.

I have posted numerous photos of my car in the past. Like I said previously, i am currently sorting through the clamps and will post again.

BTW, very impressive that you had all the engine clamp sizes and quantities!
« Last Edit: September 07, 2006, 23:05:53 by Tom230sl »

Vince Canepa

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Re: Clamps in the Engine Bay
« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2006, 05:30:10 »
The strap clamp material is still available at the dealer.  I bought 3 meters of the banding and 30 of the "cotters" last summer.  I'll find the Part Nos. and post them.  It is really easy to use if you know how, both for initial use and reinstallation.

Regarding judging, most MBCA judges are not well trained.  Michael's experince seems different, but after 33 years of showing cars in MBCA events I am appalled at the lack of consistency in the quality of judging.  At this years June Jamboree they were scrounging the filed for judges after the judging started!  I don't think the guys who judged the body on my car had never seen a 113.

At the more professional events, the type of clamp and its finish becomes more important.  Part of the reason is the generally more consisitent quality of the field of cars.  Little differences become the only ways to differentiate.  If the difference between two cars comes down to one with absolutely original clamps versus one with SS and such, the nod goes to the more original car.

Vince Canepa
1967 250SL
113.043-10-001543
568H Signal Red
116 Caviar MB-Tex

mdsalemi

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Re: Clamps in the Engine Bay
« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2006, 07:32:57 »
Ahh, clamps and Concours!!!  My favorite subject!

I am learning by reading the rules; going to judging school; and trying to stay close to the events.

The MBCA rules for Concours judging are quite clear.  In the engine bay section, you can have the original clamps--whatever that might be, or MB-USA replacement clamps w/o deduction. (Nitpickers: Section 6.5 Paragraph C)  So go buy a clamp at the dealer and see what they give you; it will be OK even if it isn't a banding style clamp.

They will deduct points for corrosion, so anything galvanized might be good when new, but won't stand up for the long haul.  Even the zinc plating done on my car's engine bay parts like the steel fuel lines isn't standing up like true CAD would.  So, it will start to lose points here.

What's the tie-breaker?  Mileage.  Higher mileage car wins.  Every time.  Section 6.4

It's sad that Vince has had such a terrible time with MBCA Concours events.  Here in the midwest, it has been pretty good in my obviously limited experience.  People like Joe Alexander and Ted Gottfried have judged events in this area.  We all know Joe; Ted was an MB mechanic for decades and is quite well known in the Cleveland area, and as familiar with the 113 as anybody.  It was many of his pointed comments that had me make corrections to my engine bay.

Judging isn't consistent however, because humans are involved.  That's one reason why the judging is done by vehicle parts: one judge or two does ALL the engine bays, so you don't have one judge making a clamp ruling on one 113, and another doing it on another 113.  At least the thought is that one judge would be consistent from car to car as they do the engine bay, for example.

Pete Lesler, one of our own, is the Chief Judge for many MBCA events and is very familiar with the rules and our cars.  In the two times I've seen MBCA national events--Starfest and Gemuetlekeit--the judging was accurate and professional.  There was a school beforehand, and a judges meeting as well to lay out the ground rules.

Judges can be fooled however.  At Starfest, there was a 113 that had an "ersatz" tar-top battery created by cutting the top off an old useless battery and grafting it on a modern one.  Unless you really looked hard it looked like the real thing.  That same car while looking original with this "foam at the mouth" patina that everyone loves was actually restored 24 years before!  So, the judges thought they were looking at "original" patina and it was just an older restoration that gave the appearance of originality!  The owner revealed this after the judging...he won first place.

I respectfully disagree with Tom Collitt.  The banding style clamps were cheap and inferior to the modern German style clamps we have talked about.  Back in the old days, manufacturers were more concerned with materials cost versus labor cost.  The Norma and Gemi clamps, though inexpensive for us today, were most likely much more expensive then a cotter pin and a band of galvanized steel.  The labor to put them on was not a big issue back then, it would be today.  Read in detail some of the website links I posted earlier and you can see that there are some notable features to these modern clamps, including uniform clamping from all sides, rolled edges, etc.  These modern clamps really are better then the band clamps.  Again, I suggest that the only reason to use a band and cotter clamp on our cars is if you are trying to achieve a certain look.  It won't help you in MBCA Concours, at least according to the rules.

At Meadowbrook, they didn't even open my hood or look at the engine bay.  So, clamps in this case are irrelevent.

Bottom line?  Use the clamps you want to.  We've pointed you to sources for the banding clamps (part numbers coming from Vince); German style clamps such as Norma, Wurth/Zebra, Gemi, ABA, etc. and of course you can get fat American clamps anywhere.  The judging rules for MBCA have been pointed out, too.  So, hopefully everyone has "complete information" when it comes to making clamp choices...

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid
2024 Ford Mustang Mach Ex PEV

Tom Colitt

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Re: Clamps in the Engine Bay
« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2006, 20:11:28 »
Hi Alfred

I'm sorry for that. It looks like the auctions hadn't been scheduled to start yet, including the original, tan hood retaining strap.

Here is the link:
http://motors.search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZlovemycarz

Please let me know if it doesn't work or if you have any other questions.

Thanks, Tom

Tom Colitt

TheEngineer

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Re: Clamps in the Engine Bay
« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2006, 22:19:24 »
The original wind-up clamps are available from Star Classic 800-644-STAR. You buy the clamp by the each and the banding in a five meter roll. The banding is available in two width 9mm and 5mm. Two turns around the hose and it is better than other hose clamps because it exerts uniform pressure all around.
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Vince Canepa

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Re: Clamps in the Engine Bay
« Reply #20 on: September 09, 2006, 05:55:32 »
The strapping Part Number is:  900263-009000
The "cotter" Part Number is: 900262-009100

Vince Canepa
1967 250SL
113.043-10-001543
568H Signal Red
116 Caviar MB-Tex

Douglas

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Re: Clamps in the Engine Bay
« Reply #21 on: September 09, 2006, 10:29:04 »
Ed,

IMHO, original hose clamps would be a very nice touch for a like yours. I'm told what makes them special is that they are high-pressure hose clamps (hence, no cutting into the hose when very tight).

The cotter pin clamps were not used on the later 280 SLs, so please don't consider these.

If I were in your situation, I would patiently track down as many used Gemi clamps as possible. There were used on all the Mercedes of that era, so your local parts dealers should have them. (And most of these boneyards will be surprised anyone would want them, frankly.)

A close friend of mine who is a concours participant and judge likes to bead-blast his and spray them silver. I always thought it looked decent. He tells me they will often crumble in the blasting stage, so that's one way to weed out the weaker ones I suppose.

Another alternative is to use the Normas and to substitute a philllip-head screw in it. Looks pretty darn close to the original and you'd have the added assurance of having new clamps.

Douglas Kim
New York
USA

Ed Cave

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Re: Clamps in the Engine Bay
« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2006, 15:58:49 »
Previously in this thread, Alfred wrote, "I needed to replace all the clamps in my 230SL also and I came up with a total of 4x 16 mm (diameter), 20x 19 mm, 8x 26mm, and 2x 46 mm. I would have liked to get 2x 40 mm in addition but this size was not available when I ordered. The larger ones are for the radiator hoses."

Can anyone tell me if this 'shopping list' would be essentially correct for my '71 280SL as well? At $1.25 or so each, I'm not concerned about having a few left overs but would like to order at least as many as I need to make the change. Alfred's list includes 36 total clamps but in my quick inspection under the hood, I only counted about half that many.

Ed Cave
Atlanta, GA


1971 280SL
1973 911S
2004 A4 3.0
2006 GS430

Vince Canepa

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Re: Clamps in the Engine Bay
« Reply #23 on: September 09, 2006, 17:43:32 »
The cotter clamps were indeed used on the late 280SL.  They were used on the heater hoses and the drop line from the expansion tank to the engine.  Both of my '71 114 chassis cars also had them in the same service.  They may not have been used exclusively, but they were used in large enough numbers to be correct.

Vince Canepa
1967 250SL
113.043-10-001543
568H Signal Red
116 Caviar MB-Tex

66andBlue

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Re: Clamps in the Engine Bay
« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2006, 18:52:50 »
Ed,
I am sure that my clamp count is incorrect even for a 230SL, I believe it is too low.
However, go to the SLS web site and take a look at 50.c Cooling System 280SL[/b]. It shows 11 different hoses numbered 1 - 11 (although #5 and #6 may be either/or)). Some of them show up  3x (#9, #10). That's already 26 clamps for heating/cooling hoses. Now add to this breather tubing, vacuum lines and the 2 drain lines from the fresh air scoop (I decided to reuse the 4 old cotter-style clamps there) and you probably need more than my count.  Then there is at least 1 clamp for a fuel hose, maybe more.  
I am curious what others come up with.

Alfred
1966 blue 230SL automatic
« Last Edit: September 09, 2006, 18:56:24 by 66andBlue »
Alfred
1964 230SL manual 4-speed 568H signal red
1966 230SL automatic 334G light blue (sold)
1968 280SL automatic (now 904G midnight blue)