Author Topic: 3,27 axle checkout, reseal, repair & install  (Read 66301 times)

DavidBrough

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Re: 3,27 axle checkout, reseal, repair & install
« Reply #75 on: February 10, 2008, 10:47:28 »
Thanks Naj, I think when a 350 was talked about I assumed it was a 107 but they must have meant the 3.5 280 as youy say.

David Brough
1969 280SL Auto with A/C

rwmastel

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Re: 3,27 axle checkout, reseal, repair & install
« Reply #76 on: February 12, 2008, 08:31:25 »
quote:
Originally posted by DavidBrough

In looking at the possibilities I think a 3.27 would be too tall ....
Having driven one, I would disagree.  It's fine.

Rodd
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philmas

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Re: 3,27 axle checkout, reseal, repair & install
« Reply #77 on: February 12, 2008, 09:04:26 »
quote:
Originally posted by rwmastel

quote:
Originally posted by DavidBrough

In looking at the possibilities I think a 3.27 would be too tall ....
Having driven one, I would disagree.  It's fine.

Rodd
Pagoda Technical Manual
please contibute: http://www.sl113.org/wiki/pmwiki.php
1966 230SL
2006 C230 Sport Sedan


Not sure I got you on this...
do you mean the 3.27 ratio gears shown on the SLS site will fit in the original 280sl diff housing? :?:

Philippe from Paris
'71 280SL manual 4sp
Philippe from Paris
Euro '71 280SL manual 4sp

DavidBrough

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Re: 3,27 axle checkout, reseal, repair & install
« Reply #78 on: February 12, 2008, 09:28:34 »
Thanks Rodd that’s very interesting. I haven’t actually driven a car with a lower ratio and was just going on what I had heard which all seemed logical with the auto being closer to a 3 speed than 4.

I would certainly be interested to learn more of your driving experience and thoughts on the differences. I am mainly interested in set off, low speed and incline performance. I would certainly be happy sacrificing a fair element of initial acceleration for a more relaxed cruise but would not want to end up with a car that struggled significantly on any sort of incline.

I notice that SLS list a 3.25 crown wheel and pinion which is quite reasonably price in comparison to the others and this could be an option. I assume it will fit straight into the existing casing?

David Brough
1969 280SL Auto with A/C

paulr

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Re: 3,27 axle checkout, reseal, repair & install
« Reply #79 on: February 12, 2008, 10:04:42 »
Hi David,

I am seeing the garage on Friday to see what they have 'round the back, with a view to having the swap. As I do mainly motorway miles I am looking forward to a more relaxed ride, but as I live in central London, am curious about the take off and slow speed impact. I'm sure it's fine otherwise more people would have made a point of it. I will let you know how I get on as I'm looking to have it fitted before a trip to South of France in early March.

By the way all, I think the pattern making kit has arrived and I will tear it open when I'm back in town on Friday.....cocomats

quote:
Originally posted by DavidBrough

Thanks Rodd that’s very interesting. I haven’t actually driven a car with a lower ratio and was just going on what I had heard which all seemed logical with the auto being closer to a 3 speed than 4.

I would certainly be interested to learn more of your driving experience and thoughts on the differences. I am mainly interested in set off, low speed and incline performance. I would certainly be happy sacrificing a fair element of initial acceleration for a more relaxed cruise but would not want to end up with a car that struggled significantly on any sort of incline.

I notice that SLS list a 3.25 crown wheel and pinion which is quite reasonably price in comparison to the others and this could be an option. I assume it will fit straight into the existing casing?

David Brough
1969 280SL Auto with A/C




paulr
lovely 1970 280 SL

Naj ✝︎

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Re: 3,27 axle checkout, reseal, repair & install
« Reply #80 on: February 12, 2008, 11:39:14 »
quote:


Not sure I got you on this...
do you mean the 3.27 ratio gears shown on the SLS site will fit in the original 280sl diff housing? :?:

Philippe from Paris
'71 280SL manual 4sp



No, Philippe,

You need to get a complete axle with the 3.27 ratio.

The diff casing (pumpkin?) from the 280 SL is too small for that gear set.

Have a look at Joe Alexander's video about the back axle.
naj

68 280SL
« Last Edit: February 12, 2008, 13:42:10 by naj »
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rwmastel

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Re: 3,27 axle checkout, reseal, repair & install
« Reply #81 on: February 12, 2008, 15:51:52 »
quote:
Originally posted by philmas

Not sure I got you on this...
do you mean the 3.27 ratio gears shown on the SLS site will fit in the original 280sl diff housing?
No, I mean I disagree that it would be "too tall" for comfortable driving.  But, I forgot that there should have been an asterisk on this point.

I drove Tom Sargeant's 280SL with the 3.27:1 ratio differential, but it also had the first gear start installed by Gernold at SL Tech.  So, the takeoff was fine, but it was always in first gear!

Rodd
Pagoda Technical Manual
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Garry

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Re: 3,27 axle checkout, reseal, repair & install
« Reply #82 on: February 12, 2008, 17:33:54 »
Does any one have any experience how a taller dif goes in a 4 speed manual? Most of my driving is on open road and 3000+RPM for 100kph is quite high and I would love to drop the revs down.

thanks

Garry Marks
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jeffc280sl

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Re: 3,27 axle checkout, reseal, repair & install
« Reply #83 on: February 12, 2008, 17:42:24 »
Garry,

IMHO the 3,27 rear axle is perfect with a 4 speed manual transmission.

As I recall there is about a 20% reduction in rpms.  100 kph would be about 2400 rpms.  The car is quieter and smoother as a result. I get about 24 miles per gallon on the highway.  I plan to take some more mileage data in the next 2 months as weather improves. You can calculate the rpms by going to the following site;

http://wahiduddin.net/calc/calc_speed_rpm.htm

Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed

Longtooth

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Re: 3,27 axle checkout, reseal, repair & install
« Reply #84 on: April 02, 2008, 03:26:39 »
JamesHoward referenced a well documented procedure for increasing the preload on the pinion which ostensibly was used to insure that the bearings were also not being overloaded in the process. I found several very arbitrary issues with the procedure described by the author and wrote to ask for some reference to his chosen increments of turns (1/8 inch of a turn or 15 degrees of rotation per increment of measurement) of resistance of the pinion to rotation.  Perhaps he'll answer or perhaps not. [Addendum Apr 4: he answered -- see his response at the bottom of this message. He confirmed my suspicians in his own way]. I must however point out that the procedure is applying in increase in loads on the bearings... and the magnitude of load increase is unknown and can't be calculated or approximated analytically because the proportion of total compression being applied to the crush sleeve and that being applied to the bearings is unknown.  

To figure out how much load is being applied to the bearings (and hence to prevent overloading them), each instance of this procedure on each automobile's rear-end must know the bearing surface area's of the pinion shoulder on the crush sleeve, the crush sleeve's elastic properties (modulus of elasticity), the pitch of the pinion threads (on which the nut is being rotated), the bearing area of the rollers on their races, and the sundry other compressive loads being absorbed... to name just the obvious variables.

In fact, shouldn't the bearings actually have no load on them... i.e. roughly 0 load rather than being compressively loaded?  I make this assertion because wheel bearings for example never have a compressive load on them in their steady state condition (i.e. they actually are supposed to have some "end-play" when being adjusted... which means no compressive load of bearings against their races. The bearing compressive loads only occur with the weight of the car on the spindles and in turns (lateral forces when turning corners addto the compression on the wheel bearings... though not that much).

I also make this assertion because I've worked in an industry where bearing's on spindles must not only have extremely low "wobble" (measured in nanometers ===> billionths of meters), must induce nearly no vibration (measured also in nanometers), and last for 7-10 years of continuous (always on) use.... as well as frequent on/off utilization (3-4 times / hour for life time)... which applies great loads during the torque required to get to some rotational speed... oh, did I mention the rotational speeds are measured in double digit thousands of rpm's.?  A bearing "pre-load" is indeed applied during asm, but the ability to define how much pre-load requires development experiments with many measures of "wobble" and many other parameters(vibration, transient vibrations,etc) on hundreds of units in relation to the reliability of the bearings to funtion for 7-10 years without degradation in performance attributes.... certainly not wearing to the point of failure. In mfg'ing the issue of how to reliably measure the set pre-load is a non-trivial pursuit with frequent tooling calibration required.

Now, I admit that automobile bearings are not nearly as sensitive in function, but that they have a relationship of load to life of reliable function before bearing failure. If you've even had a front wheel bearing go out on you while driving you'll now what I'm referring to ---oh, and the trailers or F150's or other light duty load hauling vehicles you see stranded on the side of the freeway because the wheel bearing failed is not a rare event... they failed due to either insufficient lubricant, which is usuually due to overheating, which is most often due to bearing's being over-loaded..... either because they were improperly adjusted when assembled to the spindles, or the weight on the vehicle was beyond the load bearing capacity of the bearings.

I'm not saying the procedure described didn't or won't work on the vehicle to which the procedure was applied, at the condition of the bearings at the time it was applied, but that the procedure leaves everything to be desired about the function to which it's applied... which is to insure the pinion bearings have the required load --- not to much, not too little, and most probably actually no load ---- and the procedure has no means of insuring that too much load isn't being applied... no matter what the increment of Nut turns are between measurements of torque (by levers and weights or with a torque wrench) unless the prescribed mfg'er's torque limts (tolerance) is being used.

Author's response to my query to him about the procedure's inherent lack of bearing load risks and issues:

This procedure is intended as a last resort. [bold highlight is mine.]

Example. The noise is driving you crazy, and before a diff rebuild you are going to try something radical.

I did not buy an inch pound torque wrench because this procedure is such a risk. As you noted there is no defining point where the pre-load moves from the crush sleeve and directly to the bearing.

Since I don't believe that simply reproducing the original pre-load will guarantee the elimination of the whine, the idea was to limit the excessive movement of the pinion gear which should result in a reduction of the diff noise.


Longtooth
67 250SL US #113-043-10-002163
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« Last Edit: April 04, 2008, 14:54:28 by Longtooth »

jeffc280sl

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Re: 3,27 axle checkout, reseal, repair & install
« Reply #85 on: April 02, 2008, 08:24:59 »
Longtooth,

I always enjoy your explanations and the depth of the technical analysis.

Thank you,

Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed

Naj ✝︎

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Re: 3,27 axle checkout, reseal, repair & install
« Reply #86 on: April 02, 2008, 11:19:32 »
quote:
In fact, shouldn't the bearings actually have no load on them... i.e. roughly 0 load rather than being compressively loaded?

Longtooth
67 250SL US #113-043-10-002163
'02 SL500 Sport



Yes you're right - no load while running...

Here's my understanding of it (from a John Deere tech.)
When running, the crown wheel is pushing the pinion towards the front of the car and effectively takes the preload off the front bearing.
If no preload was set, the pinion would flop about and ruin the bearing and the teeth.

The normal way to set it was to set a minimum back lash and measure it with a dial gage, and then remove a set thickness of shims.
With the crush sleeve, it is set by measuring drag on the pinion using an inch-pound torque wrench (I was told!)

http://www.mercedesshop.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=215249&highlight=pin+wrench

naj

68 280SL
« Last Edit: April 02, 2008, 12:45:04 by naj »
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Longtooth

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Re: 3,27 axle checkout, reseal, repair & install
« Reply #87 on: April 02, 2008, 15:47:14 »
Naj, thanks.... I made an implicit assumption about the pinion being pushed one direction or the other while under load, but if one bearing is being unloaded by the force under load, then the other's being compressed more, so the explanation doesn't cover the concern.  Needless to say, the front bearing (one closest to drive line) would get reduced load (force)... how much is another issue though, but the rear bearing would become more compressed.  

The entire scenario described in the procedure posted by Jeff C., while nicely executed without any expense in purchased measurement or other materials, and very well documented and shown on the web-site, doesn't address any bearing loads, estimates of same, limits on the procedure, or those load reduction magnitudes that relate to thermal expansion in any given application (i.e. specific rear end designs).

I understand it as a last ditch attempt to see if it works to quell the noise (whine) in a rear-end before going into the rear-end to change bearings, crush sleeve, add/remove shims, etc.... but if the load get's to high, then the bearings will fail and the entire rear-end's in jeoprody... a far greater problem and expense to remedy than doing it according to hoyle initially.

My intent on posting regards the procedure shown was simply to give a heads up to those that may believe this is a "kosher" short-cut method of adjusting the preload on the pinion.  It's a short-cut alright.... but so would be just cranking down on the Nut an arbitrary amount (by degrees of rotation) .... 10 degrees?, 5? or 25? or why not 180 degrees?.... without all the rest of the procedure and measurement.  Both are just as arbitrary as it relates to loads on the pinion bearings.

I haven't heard back from the author of that proceedure yet on his rationale or other criteria he may have used but which wasn't discussed in his procedure.  If I do get a response, I'll post the synopsis on this thread.

Longtooth
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psmith

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Re: 3,27 axle checkout, reseal, repair & install
« Reply #88 on: April 02, 2008, 22:07:15 »
Longtooth, I am shocked!  Do you mean to tell me that in the manufacture of hard drive bearings that you don't use the VW method of tighten it up until it barely moves and then loosen it up a skosch until you can just move the washer with a screwdriver????  :D

Pete S.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2008, 22:07:44 by psmith »

Longtooth

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Re: 3,27 axle checkout, reseal, repair & install
« Reply #89 on: April 04, 2008, 22:00:14 »
Pete, Nah... I can't recall whether it was a tad, teensy weensie, or an rch, but it wasn't a skosch that's for sure. :D   Maxtor used a skosch, which is why, I'm told they failed.

Longtooth
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hill

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Re: 3,27 axle checkout, reseal, repair & install
« Reply #90 on: April 15, 2008, 17:13:44 »
quote:
Originally posted by rwmastel

quote:
Originally posted by DavidBrough

In looking at the possibilities I think a 3.27 would be too tall ....
Having driven one, I would disagree.  It's fine.

Rodd
Pagoda Technical Manual
please contibute: http://www.sl113.org/wiki/pmwiki.php
1966 230SL
2006 C230 Sport Sedan



I concur. Just drove mine for the first time with 3.27. Tha first 50 feet from stop seems the same (slow). I like the way it downshifts to second at higher speeds. Tried the steepest hill in the area from dead stop and yes it is much better to select second.

Happy Benzing
Darryl, Hill
350 SL4.5 #60
1967 250sl "California"

jameshoward

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Re: 3,27 axle checkout, reseal, repair & install
« Reply #91 on: April 16, 2008, 09:12:59 »
quote:
I notice that SLS list a 3.25 crown wheel and pinion which is quite reasonably price in comparison to the others and this could be an option. I assume it will fit straight into the existing casing?

David Brough
1969 280SL Auto with A/C



On the rear suspension part of SLS' website they show several different crown and pinion wheel sets (3,25 all the way to 4,08). they only show one diff housing. As David asks, above, is it possible to purchase say a 3,25 and replace my 4,08? As David asks, will it fit or shall I just ask SLS to send the diameters of all the wheels as go from there??

Thanks,

James
James Howard
1966 LHD 230SL

jeffc280sl

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Re: 3,27 axle checkout, reseal, repair & install
« Reply #92 on: April 16, 2008, 10:54:57 »
The 3,27 ring gear diameter is too large for the W113 differential housing.

Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed

jameshoward

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Re: 3,27 axle checkout, reseal, repair & install
« Reply #93 on: April 16, 2008, 14:59:17 »
Really?

Bugger.
James Howard
1966 LHD 230SL

jameshoward

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Re: 3,27 axle checkout, reseal, repair & install
« Reply #94 on: April 17, 2008, 02:08:55 »
Just thinking about this some more, and admittedly before having bothered to call SLS, if the 3,27 or 3,69 crown wheels are too big for the 4,08 housing that would mean that Mercedes would have had to manufacture diff housings of different sizes. This would seem to be an unecessary imbuggerance and cost, when all that was necessary was for MB to cast one housing big enough to take all ratios and so simplify their production line and reduce costs.

So, are there diff housings of different sizes or is there another regulating factor that dictates that different sized crown wheels don't fit? Jeff??

James
James Howard
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jameshoward

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Re: 3,27 axle checkout, reseal, repair & install
« Reply #95 on: April 17, 2008, 02:09:52 »
Just thinking about this some more, and admittedly before having bothered to call SLS, if the 3,27 or 3,69 crown wheels are too big for the 4,08 housing that would mean that Mercedes would have had to manufacture diff housings of different sizes. This would seem to be an unecessary imbuggerance and cost, when all that was necessary was for MB to cast one housing big enough to take all ratios and so simplify their production line and reduce costs.

So, are there diff housings of different sizes or is there another regulating factor that dictates that different sized crown wheels don't fit? Jeff??

James
James Howard
1966 LHD 230SL

DavidBrough

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Re: 3,27 axle checkout, reseal, repair & install
« Reply #96 on: April 18, 2008, 06:06:43 »
James,
I’m currently rebuilding a 3.46 axle which has the same diff housing as the 3.27 and is much larger than the 113’s, the reason for the difference in size may be due to their application in more powerful and heavier saloons. I do know that the 3.69 crown wheel and pinion was a standard SL fitting and will fit in all 113 axles but the cost would seem to be a bit prohibitive at over £1,000. I paid £350 for my axle and the guy also had a 3.69 from a 113 for similar money, I would estimate that I will end up spending about the same again on new bits before I fit it which makes it much cheaper to try and source a good used replacement.

David Brough
1969 280SL Auto with A/C


JimVillers

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Re: 3,27 axle checkout, reseal, repair & install
« Reply #97 on: June 04, 2008, 15:03:26 »
I'll re-open up this topic with a question.  I want to lower mg gear ratio (numeric lower); I currently have the 4.10:1 and would like to know the lowest numeric ring and pinion that I can install in my 230SL rear end.  From what I have read, it would be a 3.75:1.  Is that correct and would anyone have the part number for that ring and pinion set?

I just replaced the ring and pinion in my 190SL to a 3.7:1 (from a 180D)and it makes it a much more enjoyable driving car.
Jim Villers
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Naj ✝︎

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Re: 3,27 axle checkout, reseal, repair & install
« Reply #98 on: June 04, 2008, 15:46:36 »
Hello, Jim,


quote:
Originally posted by JimVillers

I'll re-open up this topic with a question.  I want to lower my gear ratio (numeric lower); I currently have the 4.10:1 and would like to know the lowest numeric ring and pinion that I can install in my 230SL rear end.  From what I have read, it would be a 3.75:1.  Is that correct and would anyone have the part number for that ring and pinion set?

I just replaced the ring and pinion in my 190SL to a 3.7:1 (from a 180D)and it makes it a much more enjoyable driving car.



3.75 ratio diffs were fitted to early Euro 230SLs.
In fact, they are quite quick. I had a hard time keeping up with two of them (in my 280SL with a 3.92) one time we convoyed together to a club event.
A 3.69 should also fit in the same axle casing. In fact, the ratio was used on some late 280 SLs, but not for USA or Hong Kong.

In UK, I have found the 3.69 also used on a 108 chassis 280 SE 3.5

There was a company at the Techno Classica in Essen this year offering to fit a 3.46 wheel and pinion to a Pagoda back axle. The diff casing has to be machined out and the price quoted was Euro 4000.00

Wheel and Pinion set Part #:
3.69:1 _ A112 350 0939
3.75:1 _ A113 350 0139

Hope this helps.

naj
« Last Edit: June 04, 2008, 15:54:20 by naj »
68 280SL

JimVillers

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Re: 3,27 axle checkout, reseal, repair & install
« Reply #99 on: June 04, 2008, 15:59:48 »
Thanks naj

Both are still available from MB.  The 3.75:1 is significantly less expensive and will provide about a 20% gearing improvement.  Something to think about for a winter project when I can take the car off the road for a month.
Jim Villers
190SL, 230SL 5-Speed, MGB 5-Speed, MGB GT V8 RHD (real MG), 2016 SLK