Hardtop Window Success

[George Des]

In the process of refurbishing the hardtop I disassembled, primed and painted this past summer. Following the excellent article by Gernold, the process has gone fairly easy albeit tedious. The headliner and padding went in with no problem. As expected, the side windows turned out to be the most troublesome to get back in. I followed some excellent advice and used plenty of Armour All on the seals and channels. Using two stiff putty knives I was able to work the rounded corner while holding what progrees I made lower on the channel. The window seems to playfully resist until it finally gives in and sort of "pops" in. The seal in both cases was not properly aligned when the windows finally "popped" in, but it only took a little further coaxing with the putty knife to straighten these out so they sit properly now--it took about twenty minutes or so to do each window. Now a matter of replacing the rear window and attaching rest of the chrome trim and rubber seals.

George Des

[Ben]

Good work George..........I'm intersted to hear how difficult it was to get the chrome trim off the roof in the first place !

I had a brief look at mine a few years back and having eventually removved rusted screws the trim still would not budge. I know there is some body caulk on there too but did you have much of a problem ?

Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.

[waltklatt]

Oops, the secret is to do all the work on a hot summer day and leaving the hardtop out in the sun to soften up the glue like caulking they used at the factory.  This job is not as difficult as removing the factory fenders of a W123 sedan-whew now that is a hard job!  Seems they used some kind of super glue to glue them on with usual the bolts.
I will too soon be stripping a hardtop to paint it DB180-silver.
Also have an extra hardtop to play with for the sunroof or whatever.  
Walter Klatt
1967 220SL-diesel

[waltklatt]

That was one of the big jobs for you George.  Congrats on the road to completion of your 230SL!
Walter Klatt
1967 220SL-diesel

[George Des]

Ben/Walt,

This is only a big job because it needs to be done in sequence and carefully since the potential to mess up some expensive parts is very great. Besides that, it's also possible to get out of sequence and have to do some of the difficult parts--twice--ask me, I know--it happened on one of the side windows when I forgot to install that side trim that hooks over the seal lip! I had to remove the window again so I could properly install the chrome. As far as the caulking goes--yeah, it's there and can cause some problems in removing some of the delicate chrome pieces, so it's wise to judiciously-- and I do mean judiciously-- use a blow type heat gun set on low to help here. Gernold also recommends using silicone spray to help move things around a bit. I found Armour All to be just as useful. Gernold's article is excellent but to be honest, I'm not sure you can really do this job and save the headliner that's already installed. It's so much easier when you don't have to be super careful in tearing it up! Besides, if you are going through all this trouble to disassemble the top, for $80-$120 more, you might as well install a new headliner. It's on to the rear window installation now. This looks fairly straight forward.

George Des

[66andBlue]

George,
please keep us posted on the "do and don't" things as you go along.

My hardtop is painted now and I am planning to reinstall everything in a few months. So my first question is what kind of polyurethane have (or will) you use around the quarter windows and the front chrome trim?  Gernold warned me about using black PU since it will stain the new headliner should it squeeze out from the joints and then is impossible to remove. He also mentioned that he hasn't found a good white one again.

Alfred
1966 blue 230SL automatic

[George Des]

Alfred,

Gernold makes a very good point on this. On the chrome trim pieces around the outside top--this is the four pieces around the parameter of the top drip rails, I used a cream colored urethane sealer available at most autobody supply stores. I don't think there is much danger here of the sealer squeezing onto the headliner unless you carelessly glop the stuff on. I had some squeeeze out but it was on the paintwork and I used a rag soaked in PPG DT 860 reducer to clean it up while still wet. I think where Gernold has a concern--and justifiably so-- is the trim channels. I used a black strip caulk--could not find white-- but was very careful to make sure that I laid in only two strips and from the middle of the channels out so if it did squeeze out it was not towards the headliner. I've got the two side windows in and will use some 3M bedding and Sealing Compound on these. This needs to be black otherwise it will be glaringly obvious aginst the black window seals. I'll use this same sealer on the rear window--very carefully I'll add. gernold recommends using a brake cleaner to clean up any adhesive or smudges on the headliner, but I found a citrus based Goo Cleaner to work equally well--just don't try using the solvent based one! Hoep this helps.

George Des



George Des

[waltklatt]

George, Alfred,
Also can use a clear silicone caulk for around the trims and rubber seals.
Walter Klatt
1967 220SL-diesel

[66andBlue]

Hi George,
I am hoping that you remember the sequence of glueing in the trim around the base of the hardtop and the head liner. Which one comes first?  
This is especially important in the corners where the roof ("C" pillar?) meets the base. When I removed the old trim I made a note that the trim was folded over a small pice of cardboard that followed the contour of the pillar(see picture). But for the headliner I didn't take picture and only made a note that the headliner was "folded and glued" but now I don't remember where??  

Download Attachment: HardTop_Trim.jpg
54.94 KB

Alfred
1966 blue 230SL automatic

[George Des]

Alfred,

Not sure I really understand the question cmpletely, but I can tell you that this area did cause me some concern because I thought that after all the work in putting in the trim, that I my have inadvertently cut this portion too short--so be careful here. As I recall, all I did was fold the tail over the cardboard and sort of stuff it down then put the side trim in over it to hold it down. Gernold's article wasn't any more clear on how to do it exactly, so I know your concern well!

George Des

[66andBlue]

George,
I agree this is a difficult area to get the seams right.
After talking with Brian Peters in San Diego and staring at my pictures and the old trim and headliner parts again I believe the new headliner is glued in first and then the trim. I have modified the picture in my previous post to show what I mean in case someone else is planning to refurbish the hardtop.

Alfred
1966 blue 230SL automatic

[luca67]

Hi everybody,
I am doing the same job on my hardtop.
I disassembled it no less than 4 years ago, bare metal respray, and after postponing a lot... I started a few weeks ago.
Gernold sent me a copy of his article; saving the old headliner and vinyl as a template was a good idea.
New padding, headliner and vinyl trim are in: lots of worries and patience but it went well. For the pillar/trim I did just like it is showed in the picture but ended up removing the cardboard because it was bulging a little too much.
For the front chrome I used black 3M 8008 adhesive/sealer and 3M strip caulk (this only to seal the sides, filling that small groove). I hope it was a good choice (in terms of sealing leaks...).
I had a lot of trouble putting the front/side chrome trim back in place. I ended up peeling some paint off one corner, while pressing (i.e. beating) the front channel over the edge.[!]  :evil: It's too late for me now, but did you use any trick I should have known? Masking tape?
Side windows chrome trim is next.
I can't wait to put all this behind me... Every step there is a good chance to mess up a lot of work (see my peeled paint...).

Luca
1968 280sl

[Bob G ✝︎]

Found a new favorite tool that I hope you all restoring your hardtops . It is by a company called Induction innoviations Inc. They make severla tools approved by I-car the sactioning autobody trainers that will safely heat the pinch weld on any metal surface and remove glass with the sealnt in tack and a clean pinch weld. Remove rusted nuts and bults body side molding and emblems even small hail damage.
I am very excited after watching the video that I plan on ordering the mini -ductor model and optional mini pad.
I hope my enthusium is helpfull you can check this tool out and order a free video at www.theinductor.com

Happy motoring
Bob Geco

[luca67]

Hi George,
I've installed the quarter windows upper channel (back sealed with caulk strip). I have some questions about the next sequence:

• Exterior vertical chrome trim profile  
• Exterior lower chrome trim profile  
• Then? Put the rubber seal around the glass and try to push it in place? Or the other way around: place the seal in the channels and try to push the glass into it?
• When/where do you apply the bedding/sealing compound? Between rubber and channels and/or between glass and rubber? Will it squeeze everywhere while you fight the glass to go in place?
• I guess the vertical interior trim profile goes in last, after the glass and seal are in place.

Did I forget anything?

Thanks for your help,
Luca
1968 280sl

[George Des]

Luca,

The curved trim piece fits in first. The put the seal on around the glass. I did not use any sealant under the seal. The glass together with the seal is then pryed into position. I used two stiff steel putty knives with the blades wrapped in a few layersof masking tape to pad it and minimize any chances of marring the curved trim. The glass positioning is he toughest part and the seal has a tendency to come off the glass in certain areas as you do this. I found that this is not a major problem as long as the majority of the seal stays on. You can make some adjustments using a flat blunt plastic putty knife once the glass is fully seated in the channel. It's been  while since I did this and I can't quite remember the sequence on the trim mouldings so perhaps someone else can help--I do remember the sequence is important on the lower outside horizontal piece.

George Des

[66andBlue]

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">

Originally posted by luca67

 ..I have some questions about the next sequence:

• Exterior vertical chrome trim profile  
• Exterior lower chrome trim profile  

... <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Hello Luca,
I did a trial run and that sequence was the only one possible for me. Reversing the sequence did not allow the vertical piece to go in front of the curved trim piece.
I used a permanently flexible but CLEAR sealing compound underneath the chrome trim called "QUAD Pro-Series" made by OSI-Henkel - it is available at Lowe's and Home Depot:
http://www.osipro.com/products.pl?id=QUAD

Now I am struggling with the windows. One, wrapped in the rubber seals,  went in using George's "dual putty knife attack" the other one is still holding out.  
How did you manage it?

Alfred
1966 blue 230SL automatic[/list]

[George Des]

Alfred,

Just keep at it with the side windows using the two stiff putty knives, working your way around the edge and holding what you got with one while working the other. The window, as I'm sure you found out with the first, will eventully give in and sort of snap right into place. I used plenty of silicon spray on the seal to lubricate it and help it along. It makes me wonder though, how the original assemblers knew it would eventually go in the way it does and how many they may have broken in the process.

George Des

[luca67]

Alfred,
I'm not there yet: "I took the weekend off".
Then I had to scrape the old sealer off the edge of the glasses, and it was time consuming. There was a thick yellowish layer of putty or similar around most the edge. I'm not sure I did right, but I didn't like it and scraped it off... I'll go to Amelia Island this weekend (another weekend off from these chores), so I'll try to get some results before then. I got Armor All, silicone spray, putty knives, sealers of all kinds, etc...
I have 2 additional pieces of rubber profile per each window: if my memory is correct they go in later, inside, wedged between the channels (bottom and rear) and the rubber seal. This seems another patience consuming task.

Luca
1968 280 sl

[George Des]

Luca

Those two pieces are actually very easy to deal with so you should not have much of a problem when you get to that point.

George Des

[luca67]

Well, mine didn't go so well: the rubber seal tore while I was working the edge into the channel. I almost chipped the glass edge. Now I need a new seal...
I used the same approach: putty knives, silicone, etc. I thought I had the first one almost in (though the top of the glass still seemed way out of place): I'm not sure what went wrong and what to do different next time.

Luca
1968 280sl

[66andBlue]

quote:Originally posted by luca67

Well, mine didn't go so well: the rubber seal tore  ...

Hello Luca,
same story on this end. As I wrote before, the right one went in fine but the left window is not just "playfully resisting", as George Des wrote, it is stubbornly resisting!  
But when the new seal comes in I'll give it another try.  What I'll do differently is (a) not using silicon spray but Armor All as George wrote in his first message.  IMO Silicon spray makes everything too slippery, that is the seal slipps off the glass quite freely and that caused the tear when I wedged the putty knive under it. And (b)  a professional window installer recommended that I cement the glass into the rubber seal using a primerless sealer first before installing it; he recommended "Betaseal U-418" made by DOW Automotive.

But here are some positive comments and obervations that might be useful to others.  The Quad-pro clear sealant peels off very easy after it cures for a few days - even when it is on the headliner!!   See picture.
Like George I also had to install one window twice because of that lower chrome trim. I had not hooked it tight over the metal ridge and after screwing it on to the bottom it separated and I had a gap too big for the rubber lip. Fortunately, that window only resists "playfully"    and then gives up.  On my second try I had also used the recommended cement mentioned above.

Download Attachment: Hardtop quarter window.jpg
65.28 KB

Alfred
1966 blue 230SL automatic

[66andBlue]

Finally .. success!
The new seal arrived and this time that stubborn left quarter window fortunately had changed its mind and popped in without much resistance.
Now on to the rear window.

Alfred
1966 blue 230SL automatic

[GLASSMAN]

sorry first post , and im working on one of these this week. no one says wheater the quarter glasses go in from the inside or out side. i removed everything so they could replace the headliner. it took me 2.5hrs to get the glass out after dissasembling the cromes. ive searched the forum for a few and have only found a handfull of post about this , please help

[66andBlue]

Welcome to the group!
Have you discovered our technical manual already?
There is an informative article by Gernold Nisius with many useful hints: http://www.sl113.org/wiki/Tops/HardTop

[GLASSMAN]

still. do i install the glass from the inside of the hard top or the out side of the hard top, non of the artical ive read say what side to install frtom