4 speed to 5 speed conversion

[Mike]

I was thinking of trying to see if I could convert my 4 speed manual into a 5 speed using a more modern transmission such as a Toyota.  I would only do it if I could avoid cutting or modifying anything other than the drive shaft and the bell housing which I think I could have fabricated.  I would want to be able to "undo" it if I do not like it so I do not want to do any chopping or cutting.  Has anyone ever attempted this?  I was unable to find anything by searching the archives.  Thanks for your thoughts.

Mike

[merrill]

Mike,

e-mail the guys at
http://www.mechatronik.de/en/msl.htm

they put newer mb motors and trannys into old sl's

I bet they can tell you the real deal

matt

Matt
Austin Tx
66 230 sl - "white"
78 300 D - Blue
98 C230

[Raymond]

I have only scratched the surface of research into this, but here's my theory so far.  Ford makes a T-5 transmission in a few different gear ratios.  It is narrow enough to fit in the tunnel without modification.  The T-5 was made with several different shifters which position the gearshift fore and aft differently.  I don't know which combination would be right for our cars to avoid cutting a new hole in the tunnel.

Use the Mercedes bell housing and pressure plate.  The pilot bearing would be critical and might have to be made.  Then you would manufacture an adapter plate to convert the transmission bolt pattern to the bell housing.

Support plate would just need a couple of holes drilled.

The drive shaft would have to be shortened and a new U-joint coupling would be necessary.  No flex disc.

I haven't gotten to the speedometer challenge yet.  

I would welcome any constructive input.

Ray
'68 280SL 4-spd Coupe

[BABAK]

I would like to have a 5th gear too. let me know how it goes . Is it hard to find parts to rebuild these gear boxes because i would like to .

[Tom]

An alternative is to find a 3.27 rear end.  I have this and at 60 MPH my RPM is less than 3000.

1971 280sl Tunis Beige Metallic (restored & enhanced)
1971 280sl Tobacco Brown (low mileage stock)
1970 280sl Beach Driver with a touch of rust

[rwmastel]

quote:Originally posted by Tom

An alternative is to find a 3.27 rear end.  I have this and at 60 MPH my RPM is less than 3000.

How's that first gear start working out?  Would you consider it a necessity with the 3.27?

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both  tops
1994 E420

[Khurram Darugar]

Rodd,
"How's that first gear start working out? Would you consider it a necessity with the 3.27?"

     I think  this would be a necessity, i recently drove a 69 auto with the 3.27 conversion and without the drop down engaged the 2nd gear, acceleration was pretty slow.

Mike,
     If you go down this avenue and the research is encouraging please keep me in the loop.  I believe W107 Getrag has been attempted before, possibly someone could comment on this.


 




Kay
Euro 280sl LHD Auto.

[al_lieffring]

Hows about a 6 speed.

This trans would have a final drive ratio of 1:2.53 in 6th gear with my 4.08 axle. I wonder if a 230 could pull at highway speeds with the revs running that low.

http://store.summitracing.com/largeimage.asp?part=FMS-M-7003-G&Prod=Ford+Racing+Tremec+6%2DSpeed+HD+Transmissions&img=fms-m-7003-f_cp.jpg

al







66 230sl
113-042-10-014715
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition: not-as-rusty-as-before-bucket

[Tom]

The acceleration is fine-I think the concern that the 3.27 conversion significantly and adversely affects acceleration is unfounded.  I would take the slight hit to acceleration for the quiet highway ride.  You can always down shift to start and have great acceleration from the start.

1971 280sl Tunis Beige Metallic (restored & enhanced)
1971 280sl Tobacco Brown (low mileage stock)
1970 280sl Beach Driver with a touch of rust

[hauser]

Whatever you guys do just hold on to your four speed boxes.  Parts for these are getting to be very expensive.


1969 280sl 5 spd
Gainesville, Fl.

[TR]

A 3.27 is currently being shipped to Idaho, where it will mate up with my 280SL's 4 speed.

Tom in Boise
'71 280SL 4-spd, signal red w/lt. tan interior, restored/enhanced

[Shvegel]

Didn't someone on this board do this awhile ago using a BMW 5 speed? If memory serves it involved the Metric Mechanic shop in Misouri.

[George Des]

Walter( Klatt),

Did you not put a 5 speed into your 220Sl as part of the diesel conversion? What was the donor to that?

George Des

[waltklatt]

Hello George,
Yes, I did use a 5 speed manual inmy 220SL.
But it is a Getrag unit from a W201 series sedan.
It came with the motor and dropped in quite easily with the 5 speed gearshift linkage and shifter.  
It drives very nicely with plenty of power and oomph to get around.
Still need to adjust the 3-4 slot linkage rod.  
Walter
1967 220SL-diesel

quote:Originally posted by George Des
Did you not put a 5 speed into your 220Sl as part of the diesel conversion? What was the donor to that?

George Des

[mdsalemi]

Before one attempts a tranmission conversion, best do some research, and then consider what you are trying to attempt.  Do you want to really have that rare 5-speed?  In that case only the factory original will do--expense, rarity and all that goes with it.  Are you trying to reduce the highway RPM's?  In that case ensure that the transmission you choose will do the trick.  Consider the fact that a rear end conversion is considerably easier and has been done many times before, with very little modification.  I've driven Tom Sargent's car, and it is all he says it is.  The acceleration isn't noticably different in normal driving; perhaps if you drove as if you were being chased all the time you might notice something.  The drop in highway RPM's is quite noticable; with the windscreen behind your head you can actually carry on a conversation on the highway.

Regarding the T5, consider this: http://www.5speeds.com/t5/  There's an awful lot of them to choose from so be sure you get the one you are looking for, if you indeed can sort through the 260 varieties of the T5 that are out there and make an informed decision!  That's an awful lot of junkyard scavenging.

Something to consider: is the cost of an engine rebuild--assuming you attribute a premature rebuild to the high RPM's that these run on the highway--more or less then the cost of a conversion?  If you are delving into unknown waters, bring a checkbook, ensure there's plenty of cash in there, and be prepared for some challenges--as well as your car down and out for some time.

If I had a manual I'd probably be dreaming of a 5.  But with an automatic I'm sitting on the sidelines!

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored

[al_lieffring]

I just subscribed to the STAR TekInfo Online parts catalog. It lists a part number A113 260 0704 for the ZF 5 speed transmission, It also shows a different lever, controll rod, stationary rods, rear motor mount bracket and of course the 5 speed knob. I cant imagine what it would cost.


Would the rear 3rd member with a 3.27 ratio bolt up to the axle tubes from a 230sl so I could still have drum brakes??
I remember the 3.27 components and axle shafts as being beefier to handle the torque of the V8 engine that they came with.

Al



66 230sl
113-042-10-014715
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition: not-as-rusty-as-before-bucket

[George Des]

Al,

 That sounds about right. The ZF S5-20 box requires a different length set of stationary rods, shift control rod and as I understand it, a shorter front driveshaft. I have the ZF in my 230SL as from the factory--this is mated up with the 4.08 rear end. I have a 4 speed box w/bellhousing and the correct length rods in case I ever need to remove the ZF for a major repair or whatever. he only thing I don't currently have is a shorter front drive shaft--I've heard that the one used on automatics may work? My ZF box was rebuilt in Mannhiem, Germany back in 1983, but as has been discussed on this board spares ar now pretty much non-existant for it. I just took a quick run down the Washington Parkway--it's about 55 degrees here today and I felt like I needed to take it out for a run. Coming around up through Rt 95 heading south from the Pentagon I was running about 110KM/hr and I was reading just about 3000rpm maybe slightly under.

George Des
1967 230sl w/ZF 5 Speed (Italian)

[ted280sl]

The 3.27 rear end really makes a difference. I changed mine a few years ago and my car now drives very comfortably at highway speeds. It is a much less difficult and costly upgrade than changing the gearbox. I have not been disappointed at all in the acceleration.
Ted 1969 280SL w/ 3.27 rear end

[TR]

Ted -- Is your car an automatic or 4 speed?

quote:Originally posted by ted280sl

The 3.27 rear end really makes a difference. I changed mine a few years ago and my car now drives very comfortably at highway speeds. It is a much less difficult and costly upgrade than changing the gearbox. I have not been disappointed at all in the acceleration.
Ted 1969 280SL w/ 3.27 rear end

Tom in Boise
'71 280SL 4-spd, signal red w/lt. tan interior, restored/enhanced

[ted280sl]

Tom,
  I have the four speed manual transmission. I noticed as part of your sign off you indicate that your Pagoda is "restored / enhanced". We could probably start another string on enhancements but, what enhancements have you made?
regards,
Ted 1969 280SL
Enhancements
Converted from US headlights to Euro headlights w/ halogen bulbs
Switched to 3.27 rear end
Upgraded to red ignition coil
Installed new Blaupunkt CD player (no alterations required)
Rear shock tower covers

[TR]

Ted – This could well be more than you wanted to know, but here’s a partial list of the car’s enhancements:


Built-in seat enhancements; all components are from Webasto, a long-time OEM for M-B …this  includes:

Seat heaters,
Seat ventilation / cooling,
Seat massagers.

In-line wiper fluid heater unit (150 F).

600W stereo system … satellite radio, run thru Becker.

Advanced security system … w/ pager, etc.

Halon fire extinguishers (small one under driver’s seat; larger one in trunk).

Power windows / remote door locks.

M-B kit of 3-point retractable seat belts … w/special extender arrangement.

Auto-dimming rear-view mirror, with built in garage door & gate openers, compass, outside temp w/freeze warning, addt’l interior lightinhg, etc.

Very subtle interior lighting mods, a la ambient lighting as per some new M-B models.

Current M-B carpeting (w/elimination of seams).

1.5KW power inverter with multiple AC outlets.

Trunk revamp.  Elimination of spare tire … carry a small compressor, Fix-A-Flat & cell phone.  Good room for luggage stowage.

Hidden electronic “deer squawkers” … used by commercial trucking operations where wild life is a hazard.  Very high dB, but inaudible to most humans.  Drives dogs crazy though.  Must turn off around town.

Heavy use of Dynamat Extreme noise/vibration dampening mat’l.  The old 280SL is now as quiet as my wife’s CLK500 … no kidding.

Addition of M-B supplied wind screen to eliminate buffeting & noise in cockpit…wonderfully effective.

Lots of upgrades to the Frigiking A/C unit … will be installing an even higher volume Spal blower within the coming month.

Having headers designed / fabricated now…will install next month. New exhaust system currently installed and ready to handle the planned addition of a new fuel delivery system and supercharger … which is scheduled to happen over next winter.

Lots of effort invested of have engine hold temp under the most demanding conditions.  Almost there.  Hoping the last step will be a new aluminum radiator with integrated oil cooler, A/C condenser, high-volume electric fans, etc.  This unit is now being fabricated in Phoenix.  Plan to test the engine cooling & A/C mods in Death Valley.

There’s more, but I forget.  If you’re interested, here’s some previous photos of the car:  :  http://index.php?topic=4440


Ted, I’m very happy to read that you are so pleased with your 3.27 rear end.  I had the honor of meeting Tom Sargeant and driving his tunis beige 280SL over a year ago and loved the feel, and performance of his 3.27mod. … simply excellent.   And now, thanks to the wonderful support of one of our fellow members, a complete 3.27 unit arrived in Boise a little earlier today.

Oops, I almost forgot to mention that every mod that has been or is being made to this 280SL has been handled so that the car can be easily returned to original should the mood ever strike.  And in the meantime, the unused original spare tire is safely stowed away; the same goes for the manual window cranks, the rear-view mirror, the ashtray, etc. … the list could go on.

BTW, if I'd known about Mechatronik before beginning this "enhancement journey" I might have elected to have gone that direction.

Best regards,

Tom in Boise
'71 280SL 4-spd, signal red w/lt. tan interior, restored/enhanced

[ted280sl]

Tom,
    I really enjoyed reviewing your list of enhancements. I also took the time to view the pictures of your car. Your car looks great and I loved the enhancements. It seems your car is probably among the best of the beat. I met Tom Seargant a few years ago at the West Point drive in. His car is the best restored Pagoda I have seen. At that meeting he had brought his "driver" Pagoda. I understand that his museum quality Pagoda is at his home in Virginia. Unfortunately I have not been able to attend the meeting at his home so I have not seen it. I would love to see his "museum" Pagoda. Hopefully the admission fee to view it is reasonable.
Regards,
Ted 1969 280SL - not a "museum Pagoda and without the enhancements added by Tom in Boise

[bsimaz]

Ted,  I am looking into doing this also (3.27 rear).  A few questions.   Where did you get your parts?  What parts will have to be swapped out?  Cost of parts?  About how long did the conversion take?  Is this a job that can be done at home?

Thanks,

Bill Simaz
'66 230sl
Back on the Road

[rwmastel]

quote:Originally posted by bsimaz

Ted,  I am looking into doing this also (3.27 rear).  A few questions.   Where did you get your parts?  What parts will have to be swapped out?  Cost of parts?  About how long did the conversion take?  Is this a job that can be done at home?

Bill,
You need to study this thread:
http://index.php?topic=5958

Mike,
Your thread is drifting from a transmission swap thread to a rear axle swap thread.  What are your thoughts on changing that instead of the transmission?

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both  tops
1994 E420

[Mike]

Hi Rodd.  I am fine with that switch.  I would like to further explore the rear end swap to a 3:27.  I had initially dismissed it as I have a 230SL and, as such, I have rear drum brakes so I assumed that I would need to do more modification than I cared to do.  I still plan to explore the possibility of using a more modern 5 or 6 speed transmission.  My intent is not to trick anyone into believing that I have a ZF 5 speed.  It is purely to enhance the drivability of my car at highway speeds.  I will not proceed if I determine that it is impractical or that it cannot be done without cutting steel.  I am willing to sacrifice a drive shaft but that's about it.  My biggest concern is finding a gearbox that has suitable dimensions and allows for the shifter to remain in the correct place. I am also concerned about the speedometer cable hookup.  If I can solve those problems, I think I can pull it off.

Mike