Author Topic: Injector Pump (Read 29984 times)

glennard · « **Reply #25 on:** April 09, 2007, 20:58:22 »

Rolf, SM(Sevice Manual) 1202, one of many BBBs, Group Figure 07-10/14b shows one of many wiring configurations. The diagram shows a start push button used on the 220SEb's- not 230SL-I don't think.
A couple of ohms on the pink lead seems right-you are measuring the resistance thru the CSV solenoid to ground. See diagram.

Check out the diagram along with the rest of the ignition circuit. You may have a short or ground.
No way to trouble shoot unless we know what circuitry is there.

glennard · « **Reply #26 on:** April 09, 2007, 21:18:40 »

Rolf, In reviewing the many comments and data, The one relay in the circuit may have had its 87 to 30/51 contact stuck closed initially. All this playing around seems to have freed it up. All later evidence points to this.

Rolf · « **Reply #27 on:** April 10, 2007, 05:12:09 »

Glennard, Thank you. The only problem is, I have no wiring diagrams to compare with. I am going to go through the ignition wiring to see what I come up with. I still don't understand what that extra wire does or goes.

Rolf
1966 230SL Auto
1992 300D
1991 FLHS

hands_aus · « **Reply #28 on:** April 10, 2007, 06:15:31 »

quote:
Originally posted by Rolf

Glennard, Thank you. The only problem is, I have no wiring diagrams to compare with. I am going to go through the ignition wiring to see what I come up with. I still don't understand what that extra wire does or goes.

Rolf
1966 230SL Auto
1992 300D
1991 FLHS

I have a 230sl wiring diagram in pdf from the CD manual I could email to you.
It is 114Kb in size.

Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto

Rolf · « **Reply #29 on:** April 10, 2007, 06:22:42 »

Thank you Bob that would be great. Where did you get the CD?

Rolf
1966 230SL Auto
1992 300D
1991 FLHS

hands_aus · « **Reply #30 on:** April 11, 2007, 04:36:50 »

quote:
Originally posted by Rolf

Thank you Bob that would be great. Where did you get the CD?

Rolf
1966 230SL Auto
1992 300D
1991 FLHS

Hey Rolf
The CD is from Australia.
MB USA club sells them too.

I will need your email address. Send me an email via the website and include it there.
There is also a pdf with the wire colour codes I will include.
cheers

Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto

Rolf · « **Reply #31 on:** April 11, 2007, 12:42:12 »

Joe, I finally got back to the problem. One wire is pink. That shows 12 volts when starting and then goes to zero. The other wire is brown. It does not show any volts when cranking or otherwise. I had a better pair of eyes look at the plate on the pump, my daughter. She said the number ends with R11, not R1. I also looked around and the brown wire, not connected, will not reach to anything but the solenoid. i also did not see anything else to connect it to. The car starts the same horrible way wether or not any wires are connected to the solenoid. I may be better of getting a manual with all the information on the car, then trying to figure it out blindly. When I start the car, when it's warm, it acts like it's flooded. One piston fires at a time.

Rolf
1966 230SL Auto
1992 300D
1991 FLHS

glennard · « **Reply #32 on:** April 11, 2007, 13:18:18 »

Rolf, In a Perfect Pagoda Paradigm, the brown wire goes to ground. The pink wire comes from 87 on the relay mounted under the bonnet. 87 also goes to the CSV solenoid. Pull the plug off the relay, put 12 volts on 87 on the plug, and the 'start' solenoid on the FI pump and the CSV solenoid should click(move).

ja17 · « **Reply #33 on:** April 12, 2007, 22:55:27 »

Hello Rolf,

Yes, R11 is the correct injection pump for your 230SL and the R20 is for some of later W 113 engines. You most likely have the Version II starting aids on your car. Version II is the first type used on the W113 cars. You will have two relays, a time relay, the thermo time switch and time switch, the intake starting valve and the injection pump starting solenoid on your car. You will have another relay in the group but it is a wiper relay. You must be able to understand and test these parts of the system, put them right, and then decide if you need to do the factory modification.
We can walk you through it if you like. You will find even the factory BBB somewhat confusing on this subject.

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio

Rolf · « **Reply #34 on:** April 13, 2007, 09:06:41 »

Thank you Glennard and Joe. I will try what Glennard suggested, hopefully this afternoon if it clears up or after the nor'easter. I get power to the solenoid so I'm thinking that may be the problem. Wouldn't the relays be OK if I did get power. I only get power when starting, then none. I don't know about the factory modification.

Rolf
1966 230SL Auto
1992 300D
1991 FLHS

glennard · « **Reply #35 on:** April 13, 2007, 09:27:25 »

Rolf, The relay contact 87(?) supplies 12 volts to the Start solenoid on the FI pump and to the CSV soleniod. This contact is hot when the relay picks up when the Ignition switch is in 'Run'. The Start soleniod ground side goes thru a 1 second contact. The CSV solenoid ground side goes thru a contact closed below 45 F some(?) degrees. This contact stays closed a varying time. Zero seconds at the 30(?) some degrees up to 17 seconds at - 20 C (?) Joe listed the right numbers.
Nice of MB to use 'diversity' temperature scales- Why not Kelvin, too? Was he a Brit?

glennard · « **Reply #36 on:** April 13, 2007, 09:29:10 »

Rolf, The relay contact 87(?) supplies 12 volts to the Start solenoid on the FI pump and to the CSV soleniod. This contact is hot when the relay picks up when the Ignition switch is in 'Run'. The Start soleniod ground side goes thru a 1 second contact. The CSV solenoid ground side goes thru a contact closed below 45 F some(?) degrees. This contact stays closed a varying time. Zero seconds at the 30(?) some degrees up to 17 seconds at - 20 C (?) Joe listed the right numbers.
Nice of MB to use 'diversity' temperature scales- Why not Kelvin, too? Was he a Brit?

glennard · « **Reply #37 on:** April 13, 2007, 09:33:08 »

Try this again-- Whoops- That's 'Start', not 'Run'.

quote:
Originally posted by glennard

Rolf, The relay contact 87(?) supplies 12 volts to the Start solenoid on the FI pump and to the CSV soleniod. This contact is hot when the relay picks up when the Ignition switch is in 'Run'. The Start soleniod ground side goes thru a 1 second contact. The CSV solenoid ground side goes thru a contact closed below 45 F some(?) degrees. This contact stays closed a varying time. Zero seconds at the 30(?) some degrees up to 17 seconds at - 20 C (?) Joe listed the right numbers.
Nice of MB to use 'diversity' temperature scales- Why not Kelvin, too? Was he a Brit?

Rolf · « **Reply #38 on:** April 13, 2007, 10:12:15 »

I understood you Glennard. I have kids.

Rolf
1966 230SL Auto
1992 300D
1991 FLHS

mbzse · « **Reply #39 on:** April 13, 2007, 11:05:27 »

quote:
Originally posted by glennard

../.. Nice of MB to use 'diversity' temperature scales- Why not Kelvin, too? Was he a Brit?

Glennard and List,
Yes, Kelvin was British

However, degrees K are the same as degrees C, if you add 273. Gabriel Daniel Fahrenheit was German and introduced his 0 at a mixture of ice and ordinary salt, in 1714.
Anders Celsius, a Swedish astronomer, introduced his temperature scale is 1742. For it, he used the freezing point of water as zero and the boiling point of water as 100.
/Hans in Sweden

Rolf · « **Reply #40 on:** April 13, 2007, 14:39:40 »

Well, I tested the solenoid right from the battery and it clicks. I disconnected the relay and checked to see if it was getting power and it does. I don't get the click when hooked up to the solenoid so, It must be the relay.
Rolf
1966 230SL Auto
1992 300D
1991 FLHS

hands_aus · « **Reply #41 on:** April 16, 2007, 06:07:30 »

quote:
Originally posted by Rolf

Well, I tested the solenoid right from the battery and it clicks. I disconnected the relay and checked to see if it was getting power and it does. I don't get the click when hooked up to the solenoid so, It must be the relay.
Rolf
1966 230SL Auto
1992 300D
1991 FLHS

Rolf,
The relay can be opened to clean/adjust the contacts.
When I bought my car I had to sort out the cold start system.
To help make it easier I used small 12V LEDs as test lamps. They cost ~$1.00 each and I attached small aligator clips to the wires. This allowed me to leave them attached for a while.
At this point I have re-attached one on the CSV solenoid and one on the Start Solenoid on the injector pump.
We are heading into winter here so I like to monitor the car more closely.

Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto

Rolf · « **Reply #42 on:** April 16, 2007, 07:31:30 »

Thank You Bob. Is there a way to check the solenoid for proper functioning, outside of the vehicle?

Rolf
1966 230SL Auto
1992 300D
1991 FLHS

glennard · « **Reply #43 on:** April 16, 2007, 14:27:23 »

Rolf, I'd test it inplace. This will tell you if the rack moves. Movement of the rack is its purpose. 1. Remove the leads(brown and purple?) from the solenoid. 2. Put a M5 bolt in the end of the rack. 3. Ground the screw where the brown lead was. 4. Put 12 v dc on the other screw. 5. Hear a click and see the M5 bolt move about 1/2 to 1 inch. Declare Victory. No sound, no movement - retreat and apply for more advice!

quote:
Originally posted by Rolf

Thank You Bob. Is there a way to check the solenoid for proper functioning, outside of the vehicle?

Rolf
1966 230SL Auto
1992 300D
1991 FLHS

glennard · « **Reply #44 on:** April 16, 2007, 14:28:06 »

Rolf, I'd test it inplace. This will tell you if the rack moves. Movement of the rack is its purpose. 1. Remove the leads(brown and purple?) from the solenoid. 2. Put a M5 bolt in the end of the rack. 3. Ground the screw where the brown lead was. 4. Put 12 v dc on the other screw. 5. Hear a click and see the M5 bolt move about 1/2 to 1 inch. Declare Victory. No sound, no movement - retreat and apply for more advice!

quote:
Originally posted by Rolf

Thank You Bob. Is there a way to check the solenoid for proper functioning, outside of the vehicle?

Rolf
1966 230SL Auto
1992 300D
1991 FLHS

glennard · « **Reply #45 on:** April 16, 2007, 14:30:18 »

Rolf, I'd test it inplace. This will tell you if the rack moves. Movement of the rack is its purpose. 1. Remove the leads(brown and purple?) from the solenoid. 2. Put a M5 bolt in the end of the rack. 3. Ground the screw where the brown lead was. 4. Put 12 v dc on the other screw. 5. Hear a click and see the M5 bolt move about 1/2 to 1 inch. Declare Victory. No sound, no movement - retreat and apply for more advice!

quote:
Originally posted by Rolf

Thank You Bob. Is there a way to check the solenoid for proper functioning, outside of the vehicle?

Rolf
1966 230SL Auto
1992 300D
1991 FLHS

Rolf · « **Reply #46 on:** April 16, 2007, 14:42:42 »

I messed up, I meant to ask, is there anyway to test the relay outside the vehicle? Must have CRS back again.

Rolf
1966 230SL Auto
1992 300D
1991 FLHS

hands_aus · « **Reply #47 on:** April 17, 2007, 06:00:04 »

quote:
Originally posted by Rolf

I messed up, I meant to ask, is there anyway to test the relay outside the vehicle? Must have CRS back again.

Rolf
1966 230SL Auto
1992 300D
1991 FLHS

Hey Rolf,
Disconnect the plug from the relay and remove it from the chassis.

Add a multimeter across terminals 30 and 87 then test the resistance. When the relay is not activated the contacts should show almost infinite resistance and with 12 Volts applied across terminals 85 and 86 the resistance should be less than 1 ohm.

I suspect that between 30 and 87 there will be a high resistance (3-50 ohms) which won't seem high but at 12 volts can cause a large voltage drop, enough to prevent the CSV solenoid from operating.

This will indicate a need to clean the contacts.

Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto

Rolf · « **Reply #48 on:** April 17, 2007, 10:24:58 »

Thank You Bob, I'll give it a shot and see what happens.

Rolf
1966 230SL Auto
1992 300D
1991 FLHS

Rolf · « **Reply #49 on:** April 17, 2007, 14:02:47 »

It worked Bob. I knew you knew it would. Cleaned the points on the relay and it activates the solenoid. I still have that one wire just hanging there. One wire to the solenoid.

Rolf
1966 230SL Auto
1992 300D
1991 FLHS

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Author Topic: Injector Pump (Read 29984 times)

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