Help Needed - Original vs. Electrical Distributor

[Randy Woodward]

Distributor #0-231-116-062 (JFUR6)

This is my first post, and I do not know much about these cars, or cars in general for that matter. However, I ended up having to buy a 1970 280sl. I'm working with a mechanic, who appears to know what he is doing, to get this car running perfectly. When I received this car, it had an electirc distributor (ignition?), however you refer to it, that my mechanic really didn't like. He wants me to take it back to it's original state. After we did that, with all new parts...point, condensor, wires, etc...it ran perfectly for about 5 minutes. But then it would start idling rough again. So he took the distribotor apart and feels the crank? is not as symmetrical as it should be. He would like to replace that part, but that seems impossible with out simply getting a new distributor.

With that said, what's the best course of action? New distributor? Get a better elctrical ignition?

Any thoughts? And of course feel free to educate me.

Thanks

[rogerh113]

Hello,

Much to learn about the cars, but if you can take your time it is one of the pleasures of owning one.  I am running a '66 230sl, and have had it for about 10 years.  The car has the original distributor, but with a Pertronix magnetic 'points'.  Having had several British cars, as well as the Mercedes, I highly recommend the Pertronix.  While REAL MEN have points, they are also always out in the garage adjusting them, figuring out why they are spiking, and discussing the frequency of condenser replacement.  I would rather drive the car.  My Pertronix has performed flawlessly for many years, and if it every fails I will replace it with same.  I have no affiliation with Pertronix.  I would suggest a standard Pagoda distributor with Pertronix.  Once that is up and running, you can determine if you have other problems (you won't have a problem with the distributor).  Solve one problem at a time, otherwise you'll fix a lot of things that don't need fixin....

Regards -- Roger

PS - enjoy the SL - it is the best and most fun cars I have ever owned.

[Randy Woodward]

Thanks for your reply Roger. I cautiously optimistic about my first venture into the classic car world. I'm a serious perfectionist and I fear that may not aide in my enjoyment of a classic car. However, I'm going to give it a go and see how it goes.

Roger, where would you suggest I go to purhcase a Pertronix? I've been doing quite a bit of reading, and that does seem to be the easiest way to go, because I don't expect I'll ever be the type of guy to take time from the golf course to fiddle under the hood. However, I will do what I need to do to get it running as perfectly as possible.

Thanks

[TheEngineer]

My experience with Pertronix was not satisfactory. I liked the small size that fits into the distributor. But that small size also results in a less than accurate firing. My first Pertronics model resulted in good idle and midrange, but at high speeds, it would cut out. The second model, received from the factory, was good at high speeds, but poor at idling. I went back to points and am dismayed at the cost of the condenser, but the car runs very well and I find that there is no extraordinary maintenance with points. I have also reworked the distibutor flyweights a little, so that I get a little more advance after 3000 rpm. I use regular.

'69 280SL,Signal Red,Automatic,retired engineer, West-Seattle,WA

[Randy Woodward]

Well, that is also the opinion of the mechanic I'm using. However, he feels the distributor crank shaft is out of shape, causing bad firing. I don't see there is any way I can find a replacement for JUST that part. And I really hate to get a whole new distributor from Mercedes that will cost about $750. So, I'm really not sure what to do.

quote:Originally posted by theengineer

My experience with Pertronix was not satisfactory. I liked the small size that fits into the distributor. But that small size also results in a less than accurate firing. My first Pertronics model resulted in good idle and midrange, but at high speeds, it would cut out. The second model, received from the factory, was good at high speeds, but poor at idling. I went back to points and am dismayed at the cost of the condenser, but the car runs very well and I find that there is no extraordinary maintenance with points. I have also reworked the distibutor flyweights a little, so that I get a little more advance after 3000 rpm. I use regular.

'69 280SL,Signal Red,Automatic,retired engineer, West-Seattle,WA

[J. Huber]

Well, to be fair to the other side -- there are those who remain dedicated to points. Which leads to another option for you -- why not have the Distributor rebuilt. Much less than a new one. Again many here have done so. If he's taking new patients, I recommend the Benz Dr. right here.

James
63 230SL

[hands_aus]

Why not have the distributor rebuilt?
One of this sites' contributors rebuilds them but I believe he also sells a rebuild kit.
'Search' for Benz Dr and Distributor.

The worn shaft wears out the points very quickly and therefore the car runs erratically.
One thing to remember is to add 1-2 drops of oil on the wick in the center top of the distributor shaft (under the rotor) and the same to the small oil point (near the bolt) on the outside of the distributor.

The oil will keep the fly weights free to move.

The Pertronix unit has no physical contact therefore there is nothing that can wear. This helps if a distributor is worn like yours.

Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto

[DavidBrough]

Hi Randy,

I use the 123ignition which is a complete replacement distributor and it works fine for me.

Have a look here:-

http://index.php?topic=5956.123ignition


David Brough
1969 280SL Auto

[Cees Klumper]

I would get the distributor rebuilt by Dan Caron / Dr Benz. He knows exactly what he's doing, it will be at a very reasonable cost, the distributor will probably outlive you after the rebuild, and it's such a critical basic item to get right. If your mechanic is capable, he will likely have pinpointed the main cause of the rough running.

I rebuilt my dist with a rebuild kit from Dan myself - I am a CPA by trade and not a mechanic, and I had fun in the proces at the kitchen table. I'm sure I did not reach perfection, but the journey was half the fun and the car runs just great.

Cees ("Case") Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic

[Randy Woodward]

Well, i've ordered a Pertronix to relace the points. At $70, I think it's worth giving it a try. I like the idea of rebuilding the distributor, but I really don't have time for that right now. I need to get this car out of this guy's garage and back to my house. If the Pertronix doesn't work well, I'll probably go ahead and get it rebuilt. I sure hope I don't have to tinker with this car too much, I like things to just work. But I'm going to give the classic car gig a try. My next post may be asking everyones help on selling it.

Thanks

[bbryant]

I recently purchased a 1970 280SL and going to install a Pertronix. I have had one in my 67 Jag XKE for years and have not had any problems

[Ben]

This is the Unit David has spoken about, it gets good reviews,

http://www.123ignition.nl/id/25.html



Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.

[Randy Woodward]

Well, I have the Pertronix in my hand and I'm taking to the mechanic this afternoon. I'll post how it goes. I sure hope it works well, because I ready to start driving this car. Thanks for all replys. I guess if this Pertronix doesn't work the way we want, I may try that 123 next.

[Randy Woodward]

Ok Gang, here is the latest. I went ahead and had the Pertronix installed. It was actually kind of funny. My mechanic has been working on mercedes for 30yrs. I gave him the Pertonix, he gave it a curious look, and began to install it. I actually had to tell him he didn't need to use the old electronic "piece" left in the car for the wires to connect. So, he got it all done and it ran amazingly well. The best it's run since I got the car a month ago. He looked at me and admitted he thought to himself "holy ****, what am I going to do with this", but he was amazed by how well it worked as well. So I finally got the car out of the garage and on the road.

Unfortunately, I was cruising at about 70 in 4th gear and it started back-firing pretty bad, and hesitating. However, I've been driving it all over the past two days and no back-firing. But it's not like it was when I had it at the garage. My friend, who hooked me up with this mechanic, said I need to drive it a good bit to get the carbon in the engine cleaned out. The car was driven very rarely over the past few years. So, that's what I've been doing.

I guess I'll give it a month and take it back in and see if he can tweek it to get it back to near perfect.

So, for the time-being, I'm satisfied with the progress and the Pertonix.

Any further thoughts on this would be appreciated. Again, I know virtually nothing about cars, but I'm smart and anal enough to learn. I actually have learned a lot from you guys and my mechanic.

Thanks

[waqas]

Regarding the back-firing and hesitation, you might want to have the fuel filter replaced, and perhaps make sure your fuel feed and return lines are free of any blockages. There's lots of info on the forum regarding this-- do a search.

Happy motoring!

WAQAS in Austin, Texas

[hands_aus]

quote:Originally posted by rrwooward

it started back-firing pretty bad, and hesitating.

Back firing sometimes indicates that the air/fuel mixture is too lean.

You can check the colour of your exhaust pipes.
If they are silver grey the engine is in correct tune
if they are sooty black the engine is running too rich
if they are white the engine is running too lean.

You can also check the spark plugs using the same checking colour critera.

there is also another simple diy test to assess the air/fuel mixture.

keep us informed

Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto

[hands_aus]

quote:Originally posted by bbryant

I recently purchased a 1970 280SL and going to install a Pertronix. I have had one in my 67 Jag XKE for years and have not had any problems

Hi bbryant,
I don't want to steal this thread.
I have a mate with a 69 4.2l E Type so can I ask you what model Pertronix did you install in your E type?
thanks



Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto

[Ben]

quote:You can check the colour of your exhaust pipes.
If they are silver grey the engine is in correct tune
if they are sooty black the engine is running too rich
if they are white the engine is running too lean.

...........and nobody has ever seen white tailpipes on a W113 !  

Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.

[hands_aus]

quote:Originally posted by Ben

quote:You can check the colour of your exhaust pipes.
If they are silver grey the engine is in correct tune
if they are sooty black the engine is running too rich
if they are white the engine is running too lean.

...........and nobody has ever seen white tailpipes on a W113 !  

Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.

 
true, but I still needed to mention it

Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto

[Randy Woodward]

Wow, you guys really are helpful.

Yep, I've been educated on the color as it relates to the spark plugs, and "Argon" my mechanic, liked the color when it was at his shop. I've talked with him about the back firing and he really wants me to drive it for a while before we try to fine tune it. He says we WILL make it PERFECT, but it will take a little time. The car had not been driven very much at all, just 85k miles as of yesterday. So, he asked me to put some fuel-injector cleaner in the tank, and drive it for a few hundred miles. I'll also say the one thing I don't think he got around to doing that from what I've been told and read might be a really good idea, is to completely empty the gas tank and clean it out. That residue can build over all those years and should be cleaned. So, I think I'm going to have him do that as well.

I'll have to say that it actually does sound better even this morning. But it still has that diesel sound when it's ideling, and I hate that. But Argon assured me we could make that go away.

I'm also getting a little smoother with the clutch, and have figured out this little sucker can MOVE. I've read the "RPM" threads, and was glad to see everyone else had issues with the high RPM at faster speeds. But they are right, sure makes for quick starts and pick up.

Hey!!!, has anyone ever tried putting a 5 speed in one of these? Argon wasnt sure it could be done, but thought it would be a whole lot cooler if you could for those speeds over 80.

Again, thanks guys!!!

[graphic66]

Try some Castle Dragon Powerhttp://www.castleproductsonline.com/product_listing.html This has been the only stuff I have seen work, it is $20.00 a bottle and worth it. And, yes drive that thing. I think these cars need to be driven. Get the highest pump octane gas you can get also. And get rid of those resistor spark plugs and get the right wires, just guessing you have resistor plugs. It can be difficult to find non resistor plugs and wires with the correct resistance for these cars.

[Randy Woodward]

Hey there, thanks for the info. Well, I KNOW i have kck ass wires seeing how I just got them from MB Parts, which I probably could have paid less somewhere else, but I wanted to get them quick. Mechanic thought the spark plugs were fine, but maybe I should take your advice and make sure. Do you have a particular plug in mind? I'll try this product you like as well. I want this thing to hum!!!

quote:Originally posted by graphic66

Try some Castle Dragon Powerhttp://www.castleproductsonline.com/product_listing.html This has been the only stuff I have seen work, it is $20.00 a bottle and worth it. And, yes drive that thing. I think these cars need to be driven. Get the highest pump octane gas you can get also. And get rid of those resistor spark plugs and get the right wires, just guessing you have resistor plugs. It can be difficult to find non resistor plugs and wires with the correct resistance for these cars.

[Raymond]

The plugs you want are Bosch W7DC.  Many places will tell you they have been discontinued and replaced with WR7DC.  Don't believe them.  The Bosch books have relegated a lot of their older style plugs to a single stock number - 7500.  So, that's what their computers say and the number comes up with the resistor plug.  

Last month, a woman behind the counter at my neighborhood NAPA store did a little extra digging and found the plugs in their inventory system.  I paid $1.19 each for them. She told me they were in stock at nearly every other NAPA store in town.  I went back today and the two men behind the counter couldn't find them in.  (So I guess that proves one woman can't be replaced by two men. :mrgreen: ) These two guys actually said that the FCC had outlawed non-resistor plugs to prevent radio interference.  (Amazing the stories people will invent so they don't have to do any work.)  It's another example of the ignorance of many suppliers when it comes to older cars.  You'll run into that often.


Ray
'68 280SL 4-spd Coupe

[Randy Woodward]

Ok Ray, I just ordered them off the internet. Thanks for the help. I hope they make a difference. So, I've been driving around a bunch the last few days. When it's idling, it still sounds a little rough like a diesel engine, but not too bad. I've figured our as long as I cruise at nor more than 2,500rpm, or about 45mph in 4th gear, I have no problems. Once I get it up to 3000rpm, near 60mph, thats when I get the serious back-fires. Now, at 2,500rpm, I will get small back fires when I let up off the gas, but not too bad. Yet, still annoying. So, I'm going to take it back to mechanic and see what he can do. But I'm thinking I may need to go to someone who also knows what he is doing, but also someone who has one of those "dyno"? machines. But I'll try this guy I've been using first.

Also, my damn battery was dead again this morning. It was dead when I first got it, but once we got it charged, it seemed fine. And it's been working for about a week. But this morning, just would not turn over at first, and battery was dieing.

New Battery?


Thanks for everyones help.

quote:Originally posted by Raymond

The plugs you want are Bosch W7DC.  Many places will tell you they have been discontinued and replaced with WR7DC.  Don't believe them.  The Bosch books have relegated a lot of their older style plugs to a single stock number - 7500.  So, that's what their computers say and the number comes up with the resistor plug.  

Last month, a woman behind the counter at my neighborhood NAPA store did a little extra digging and found the plugs in their inventory system.  I paid $1.19 each for them. She told me they were in stock at nearly every other NAPA store in town.  I went back today and the two men behind the counter couldn't find them in.  (So I guess that proves one woman can't be replaced by two men. :mrgreen: ) These two guys actually said that the FCC had outlawed non-resistor plugs to prevent radio interference.  (Amazing the stories people will invent so they don't have to do any work.)  It's another example of the ignorance of many suppliers when it comes to older cars.  You'll run into that often.


Ray
'68 280SL 4-spd Coupe

[J. Huber]

Hey Randy. I'd say if the battery has died not once but twice -- just go get a new one. There isn't an easier upgrade/repair out there... Head to the nearest Sears Autocenter. I have always had good luck with Diehard (Gold I think it is).

James
63 230SL