Considering the purchase of a 1969 280SL - advice?

[raftel]

Here are some photos of a 1969 280SL that my father in law is considering for purchase.  I've inspected the car based on advice I've seen here and elsewhere, and now that I've gathered the information, I'd really like to get some opinions from the forum before we proceed.

Presumably a California car for most of its life, there is very little rust, or evidence of previous rust repair.  The fenders are original, with the weld dots intact near the hood opening, and no rust under the lip, or anywhere else.  The character lines coming off the headlight trim are intact.  Floors look fine, with original undercoat still present.  A little bit of rust on driver's side inner fender (painted body color), presumably from a leaking brake fluid reservior as the one on it now is new.  Straight car as far as I could see, and using a weak magnet I found no signs of filler on the steel panels.  Only rust I found was a bit of bloom under the trunk mat.  All stainless, trim, signals and bumpers in excellent shape.

Engine started readily from cold, and revved well to 4500 rpm (most I took it).  Shifted well.  Tires are suspect - one is a Firestone-Phoenix that must be the original spare!  This caused some excitment when testing the brakes as different tires gripped differently..

Most brake hoses are original, and one is leaking.  Some wheel bearing play in driver's front wheel.  Minor leakage from the transmission and engine.  Transmission fluid nice and red, oil at correct level and fairly clean.

25 lbs oil pressure at warm idle in Drive, no smoke, good temperature.

Interior is good - wood is fine, dash is showing some minor cracks around the instruments.  Original Kangol seat belts probably should have the webbing replaced.  Minor cracks near spokes of steering wheel.  Carpet (blue) is sun faded to green in some areas.  New softtop in incorrect material (vinyl) fits well.  Hardtop very nice.  Seat material under sheepskin shows some flattening (pads) and holes, but are comfortable.

Heater control levers do not seem to work.  There is a jerry-rigged (how appropriate for a German car [:p]) valve under the hood to control water flow to the heater.  Speedometer needle jumps around when driving - new cable needed?

If my father in law takes the plunge, I look forward to more discussions on this board  
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Robert

[rob walker]

Robert, looks as if it could be a very nice car and quite a find...dependent on what you have to pay?

Rob Walker
1968 280SL papyrus white/green leather
Spain and Turkey

[Douglas]

Sounds like you've done your homework. You get an A. Congrats. :-)

So is it the original motor?

Douglas Kim
New York
USA

[rwmastel]

Robert,

Yes, you have done some homework, haven't you!  Well done.

It looks like it's for sale at a dealership, so that might jack up the price some.  To negotiate, maybe we can estimate the cost of putting some of the things "right".  Use that info to help get the selling cost down.  OK team, help me evaluate some costs:

- new tires: $300 - $600
- repair trunk rust:
- repair inner fender (if needed):
- correct over heating issue:    New thermostat?  New water pump?  New fan clutch?  New/repaired radiator?  Proper tune up?  Big variables here, but nothing unique to the 280SL.  Others here have gone through this and can comment on costs.
- correct soft top:  $400 - $600 plus installation
- heater & vent controls:    Other have fixed this, I don't know the cost of parts but the labor can take many hours.  An, once you're in there, then you start looking at fixing other things.
- speedometer bouncing:  $100 or so at Palo Alto or other instrument repair specialist.  Plus cost of new cable.

Eveyone else can pitch in with their experiences on fixing these problems and help Robert get the car for the appropriate price.

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both  tops
1994 E420

[raftel]

Thanks for your responses; I try to make sure I do my homework before I, or a family member, lay out the cash.  Yes, it is on sale at a dealer locally.  They sell on consignment, and just sold two of my father in laws cars.  He had a Pagoda until my wife came along, and trying to get two infants into the back of a Pagoda proved too much.  He'd like one again.

Let me clarify - the car does not appear to overheat - the valve was stuck in there to control heat to the cabin, as the valve/levers on the dash don't work.  We expect to negotiate a price based on doing some of the work ourselves.  I forgot to mention that the AC does not work, but may just need a recharge - the dealer is seeing to that.  It has been serviced locally for almost 20 years, at a shop we use and respect, so there is some comfort there.

So, given these factors, what is a fair value for this car?

Robert

[Douglas]

2 questions:

1. Is it the original motor?

2. Have those door panels been re-covered? Looks like it may not be the original Tex. (Not a big deal. Just a minor observation.)

Douglas Kim
New York
USA

[raftel]

I took down the block number, but I don't have it at hand now.  It did appear to be a correct 280 block for an SL, but I don't recall if it matched the car, which, btw, has 93,000 miles showing.  The info I took from the build plate matched the seller's description - late October 1968 production, original blue paint, auto trans, Becker Europe radio, etc.  Not sure if the door panels have been recovered, but given the wear showing on the carpet dye, seats, and vinyl on the dash, I suspect it is original like everything else. The nylon insert on the transmission shift quadrant has bits missing as well.

I'll check my notes for the engine number this evening, and thanks for your help!

Robert

[J. Huber]

Hi Robert. I think even with as much fine homework as you've done, it would be difficult to place a single "fair value" number on the car. It is very attractive.

I'd be willing to throw out a range (I'd feel ok about) -- but a lot has to do with:
A. how much Dad-in-law is comfortable paying to get it; and
B. what his longer-term plan is: To just drive it as it is?, jump into a high-end restoration? (then deed it over to you!), or maybe do a few things at a time, improving and enjoying as he goes.

I'd say, based on pics and descriptions: somewhere in the 18 to 24K range is reasonable. This could be revised up (or down) depending on the extent of the rust and the age of the motor.



James
63 230SL

[raftel]

Current asking price on the car is just south of $25K.  Dad in law is comfortable with paying fair market value for a good car that won't give him too much trouble, as he intends to drive the car very frequently and enjoy it.  Restoration, if any, will be piecemeal and intended to protect the car from further deterioration rather than create a rarely used objet d'art.  My observations from his previous ownership of a R107 SL and a Ford Model A bear this out.  Given the age his parents were when they passed, he will enjoy this car for many years if he gets it  

Rust was my leading concern, and I think I looked pretty hard for it.  It found little - a bit in the trunk, that would probably clean up with a bit of steel wool, and that is about it.  The floors were clean, as were the sills and fenders.  I could not find the presence of previous rust repair, but the car was repainted - about 20 years ago.  

I have seen no records for the car indicating service history, but I do know the owner of the garage that serviced it pretty well, and plan to talk to him about the car.

I saw comparable appearing SLs close on eBay for over $30,000, and cars that looked a bit nasty sell in the $20s, so I thought this was priced in the ballpark, especially since we all know how pictures can lie and the risks inherent in eBay.  Thoughts?

Robert

[Douglas]

If everything is as described, that's an excellent price. In my opinion, it's a no-brainer at that price.

Douglas Kim
New York
USA

[J. Huber]

I agree with Douglas -- sounds pretty fair. Not quite a no-brainer in my book -- given that some work will be needed right out of the gate. (brake work & tires)... It would be nice if the seller took into account the heater troubles as well -- and knocked it down 5-10 percent or so.

James
63 230SL

[rob walker]

I think that is a pretty fair price. Quite a few nice things to see, with the original spot welds and grooves in place and even the little rubber strips on the bulkhead seam!

Rob Walker
1968 280SL papyrus white/green leather
Spain and Turkey

[raftel]

I got the numbers from the car-

VIN is 113 044 1200 6641
Engine (block): 130 983 12?004231 (? means I couldn't read it)
Cylinder Head:  8-9 5E (casting date?)  130 016 00 01 (part #?)

Is the mismatch between the last digits of the engine and the VIN an indication of a non-original engine?  Does it matter if it does?

Robert

[Douglas]

The numbers sound correct; they're not supposed to be the same. You'll need the data card to confirm that's the original motor. Does it come with the original books, papers & toolkit? If so, the datacard may be in there.

Douglas Kim
New York
USA

[raftel]

Haven't found a data card, and I suspect I won't unless I order one.  Books come with the car, but they are in poor shape and don't appear to be original as there are no dealer stamps, not even from the original delivery service.  Toolkit is there, stored in the cover over the spare.  Right now, father in law is waiting to hear from the mechanic who has serviced the car over the past ~20 years about its history and the costs involved in setting the things mentioned right.

Robert

[Kenneth Gear]

Appears to be a good price to me.  Noticed it has a VA plate on it, are you in VA?

Ken G
1971 280 SL Silver/red
1969 BMW 2800 (sedan)

[raftel]

Yes.  Fredericksburg.

Robert

[Kenneth Gear]

Great,

I'm in Alexandria and there are a few more 113 owners up in this area, we look forward to seeing you on the road!

Ken G
1971 280 SL Silver/red
1969 BMW 2800 (sedan)

[raftel]

It appears that a deal has been made.  Here is a link to more photos and dealer description of the car:

http://www.classiccarcenter.net/69benz.html

AC has been fixed, now to taking care of some of the other bits if my father in law cares to.

Robert

[Douglas]

Congrats. On closer inspection, you can see parts of the interior were re-done. The door panels and at least part of the dash, I believe. (Looks like the screw is missing above the stereo.) I'll bet those were done when they put that soft top on. Perhaps the same shop did it.

In any event, I think it was a very good buy. It will be easy to take that car to the next level.

Douglas Kim
New York
USA

[68_white]

That knob on the transmission shifter, is it original?? correct for that year?? I have seen it on a few other 113s. Mine has the smaller black knob (auto transmission).

HARRY

68_WHITE

[J. Huber]

Hi Harry. Here is my example of what you are referring to:
http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/J.%20Huber/200571614352_knob2.jpg

Mine has been on the car since the 70s -- (maybe sooner?). Not sure if it was a dealer option or not.

By the way, nice purchase Robert. Hope to see you and father-in-law on the site.

James
63 230SL

[rwmastel]

quote:Originally posted by raftel

It appears that a deal has been made.  AC has been fixed, now to taking care of some of the other bits if my father in law cares to.

Robert,

Congratulations!  Now you and your father-in-law need to get in that "new" 280 SL and join the caravan from the East Coast to Blacklick, OH.  What excellent timing for a purchase!  Note all the Easterners listed here:

http://index.php?topic=6530

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both  tops
1994 E420

[hauser]

Congrats!  Well done!  Looks like a very presentable car at a good price.

1969 280sl 5 spd
Gainesville, Fl.

[raftel]

I'm afraid it is too close to plan in the Blacklick trip at this point.  

I'm a bit disappointed in my local independent repair shop.  Not that he advises or charges for unnecessary work, but quite the opposite.  My father-in-law purchased the car as is, and this mechanic said that the leaking brake hose could wait until the next service.  Mind you, this leak left a stain about 1.5" x 5" in my driveway just sitting there.  I think this, more than mismatched tires, accounted for the unstable heavy braking, one wheel was not getting brake fluid at pressure!  I have never heard of a mechanic allowing a car with such a defect to leave his shop without waivers signed in triplicate.  :twisted:

There is a service history with the car that we are going to be getting.  I'll go through it to see what it still needs, but if this was the approach to maintenance on the part of the shop, I am a bit concerned.  Let's put it this way - can some Northern Virginia members of the board recommend a good independent?  I'm looking for one now.  I just think this guy has been doing this too long, and is getting tired, and it is showing.

One nice thing that I noticed was an NOS Mercedes shift indicator plate.  Not just the nylon part that breaks, but the whole, chromed plate in a Mercedes box.



Robert