Author Topic: non running 280SL  (Read 41039 times)

Benz Dr.

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Re: non running 280SL
« Reply #25 on: March 01, 2008, 23:17:27 »
Note:
The term ''flower pot '' was coined by yours truely and is now used by all benz nuts world wide. The Dr. is happy to let this club use it with his permission.

The first thing you HAVE to do is measure fuel volume. If it's OK leave that and go to the ignition system. Pull the coil wire off and move the points with a screw driver. Place the coil wire about 1/2 inch away from a meatal part on the engine then open and close the points . You should hear a snap with a bright blue spark coming from the end of the coil wire. A weak spark with yellow or red in it won't work. Check to see if the coil wire is carbon core - something that's far more common that you might think. I'd sugest that everyone go out and check this on their car. It could save you a lot of grief knowing this and getting a steel core wire instead.
I know you said you bought new wires but a lot of these sets aren't right for these cars even though they're made by Bosch and look as though they should be OK.

Dan Caron's
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1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

dseretakis

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Re: non running 280SL
« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2008, 12:12:57 »
OK, so I finally performed the psi/flow test.  I performed the test at the CSV connection.  I performed it with and without restricting the return line by crimping rubber line just past where it leaves the injection pump.  The values were as follows:

With return line restricted-> 15-16 psi and 250cc in 15 sec
Without return line restriction-> 9-10 psi and 175cc in 15 sec.

Well, it looks like a fuel delivery problem as the volume is 1/4 what it should be.  Maybe I'll check fuel pressure and volume just before the fuel filter.  Hopefully problem is as simple as clogged engine fuel filter or pump filter and not the dreaded flower pot.
Dimitri

dseretakis

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Re: non running 280SL
« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2008, 17:27:00 »
Well, I now did a psi/flow test just before the main fuel filter and got 16 psi and 200-250ml/15sec.  If the pressure is adequate then why would I have decreased flow if the two are directly proportional?  Also the fuel pump draws only 3.1 amps so that seems to be ok.
Dimitri

ja17

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Re: non running 280SL
« Reply #28 on: March 03, 2008, 00:21:58 »
Hello Dimitri,

The fuel return line is like a giant leak.  You must have enough volume of fuel to return a lot of fuel to the tank and still maintain fuel pressure. Check the main fuel filter first. If it has a lot of dirt or rust in it you may have to do more cleaning further up stream!

Ignition ballast resistors seldom fail and usually work or they don't.  When they fail they will go out completely. Often times as they age, the porceline will crack, but they will function until the wire coil inside breaks, then you along side the road and you will not re-start until it is fixed.

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
« Last Edit: March 03, 2008, 00:26:19 by ja17 »
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

dseretakis

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Re: non running 280SL
« Reply #29 on: March 03, 2008, 01:13:28 »
Hi Joe, thanks for your input.  I'll start inspecting the filters.  Out of curiosity, would temporarily crimping the return line, and then attempting to start with now a build up of fuel to compensate for the low volume provide any diagnostic information?
Dimitri

glennard

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Re: non running 280SL
« Reply #30 on: March 03, 2008, 13:44:11 »
Dimitri, Will it continue to run, if you squirt/spray gasoline or Quick Start into the throttle venturi/air filter?  Do this carefully/safely.

ja17

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Re: non running 280SL
« Reply #31 on: March 03, 2008, 18:04:00 »
Hello Dimitri,

Pinching the return line will increase fuel pressure only if fuel is in the system. If it is starving for fuel, the pressure will not increase. Lack of fuel is lack of fuel.  Now if somehow you could increase suction then  you may pull in more fuel to deliver.

Your reasoning is logical, because a increase in fuel pressure will increase volume possibly or temporarily if the fuel supply is ok. But if you have no fuel to pressurize, you will have no gain.

Check the fuel delivery system in five steps, 1)check the pressure and volume as you did. 2) check and/or replace the main fuel filter, 3) check and clean the fuel strainer in the intake of the electric fuel pump, 4)check and clean the fuel strainer/drain plug of the main  fuel tank, 5) if a lot of dirt and rust is detected in the fuel tank strainer/drain, remove the gas tank sending unit in the trunk and do a visual of the inside of the tank. Clean the tank and clear the "flower pot" intake hole if needed (see "gas tank tour"). Use extreme caution around gas fumes, use sparkless trouble light, conduct procedure in well ventilated outdoors!



Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

dseretakis

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Re: non running 280SL
« Reply #32 on: March 03, 2008, 21:23:34 »
Hi Glenn, I haven't tried spraying anything in the intake yet.  At this point I'm in the process of checking the filters.

quote:
Originally posted by glennard

Dimitri, Will it continue to run, if you squirt/spray gasoline or Quick Start into the throttle venturi/air filter?  Do this carefully/safely.


dseretakis

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Re: non running 280SL
« Reply #33 on: March 03, 2008, 21:31:28 »
Hi Joe, I've started checking the filters.  I jumped to the strainer of the electric fuel pump.  I disconnected the hose and peered in.  Without taking the fitting off, I peered in at the strainer and it seems ok.  I'll take the fitting off tomorrow once I get a hold of a 27mm socket or wrench. Out of curiosity is this difficult to remove?  If so I, might take the pump out and bring it to another location where I have air and try with an impact gun.  I'll also check and replace the main fuel filter tomorrow.  I'll have to defer delving into the fuel tank to next month since I'll be away from my car again in two days.
Dimitri

quote:
Originally posted by ja17

Hello Dimitri,

Pinching the return line will increase fuel pressure only if fuel is in the system. If it is starving for fuel, the pressure will not increase. Lack of fuel is lack of fuel.  Now if somehow you could increase suction then  you may pull in more fuel to deliver.

Your reasoning is logical, because a increase in fuel pressure will increase volume possibly or temporarily if the fuel supply is ok. But if you have no fuel to pressurize, you will have no gain.

Check the fuel delivery system in five steps, 1)check the pressure and volume as you did. 2) check and/or replace the main fuel filter, 3) check and clean the fuel strainer in the intake of the electric fuel pump, 4)check and clean the fuel strainer/drain plug of the main  fuel tank, 5) if a lot of dirt and rust is detected in the fuel tank strainer/drain, remove the gas tank sending unit in the trunk and do a visual of the inside of the tank. Clean the tank and clear the "flower pot" intake hole if needed (see "gas tank tour"). Use extreme caution around gas fumes, use sparkless trouble light, conduct procedure in well ventilated outdoors!



Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio


ja17

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Re: non running 280SL
« Reply #34 on: March 05, 2008, 22:47:18 »
Hello Dimitri,

Yes removal of the fitting can be difficult while the pump is still in the car.  If the screen looks clean, you may want to go to the main fuel filter first. Replace it and if it is dirty  you may go back to the tank screen or fuel pump screen.

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
« Last Edit: March 05, 2008, 22:47:46 by ja17 »
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

hands_aus

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Re: non running 280SL
« Reply #35 on: March 08, 2008, 04:03:27 »
Dimitri,
You could try inserting an artists brush in the opening of the fuel pump filter, move it around a bit and if it comes out clean then you should be ok.
I did this with my fuel pump when I rebuilt it. There wasn't much 'gunk' in there, just enough to say it had never been cleaned in 37years.

Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto
Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
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Benz Dr.

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Re: non running 280SL
« Reply #36 on: March 08, 2008, 10:04:31 »
If the fuel line runing back to the tank is plugged the engine will tend to slow down and stall. It will start when cold but not run very long because the fuel needs to circulate to prevent vapour lock. You can use compresed air and blow through the line from the engine bay and you should hear bubbles in the fuel tank. Remove the fuel cap before you do this test.
 If you can't blow air through the line it's plugged. Remove the line at the fuel tank return and low through the line again. If it's clear the line inside the tank is plugged. Remove the tank and get it cleaned. You can try blowing directly into the tank - this works once in a while.

Dan Caron's
 SL Barn
benzbarn@ebtech.net
 slbarn.mbz.org
  1 877 661 6061
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

Mike Hughes

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Re: non running 280SL
« Reply #37 on: March 08, 2008, 11:26:23 »
quote:
Originally posted by ja17

removal of the fitting can be difficult while the pump is still in the car.



An air impact gun will make quick work of removing the fitting on the pump while still in the car...no problem at all.  

However, DO NOT use anything except a hand wrench to tighten up the fitting on reassembly.

- Mike Hughes  -ô¿ô-
  1966 230SL Auto P/S
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- Mike Hughes  -ô¿ô-
  1966 230SL Auto P/S
  Havana Brown (408)
  Light Beige (181)
  Cream M-B Tex (121)

dseretakis

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Re: non running 280SL
« Reply #38 on: March 08, 2008, 16:43:32 »
Well, unfortunately my car is parked in an apartment building garage in DC where I don't have air.  I have air at a garage which I rent in Maryland where I do have air. Blowing out the lines is therefore not an option unless I fill one of those portable tanks with air, hmmm, good idea, maybe I'll buy one of those things.  As far as the pump goes, I might have to try out the artist's brush technique or just take the pump out and bring it to my air compressor.  Of course beind a northeast car the bolts that mount the pump to the bracket are rusted and will not budge.  I'll just keep spraying them with penetrating oil and try my new MAC edge wrenches on them.  While I'm at it I'm sanding and dissolving the heavy rust on the fuel pump cover with naval jelly.

Benz Dr.

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Re: non running 280SL
« Reply #39 on: March 08, 2008, 22:21:54 »
I called it the flower pot because it kind of looks like one. Open at the top and a bit smaller at the bottom.

Dan Caron's
 SL Barn
benzbarn@ebtech.net
 slbarn.mbz.org
  1 877 661 6061
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

rwmastel

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Re: non running 280SL
« Reply #40 on: March 13, 2008, 19:15:08 »
quote:
Originally posted by dseretakis

As far as the pump goes, I might have to try out the artist's brush technique or just take the pump out and bring it to my air compressor.  Of course beind a northeast car the bolts that mount the pump to the bracket are rusted and will not budge.  I'll just keep spraying them with penetrating oil and try my new MAC edge wrenches on them.
Dimitri,
Please attack the easy items first!  Don't hassle with removing the electric fuel pump, just do the artist brush test.  You never know what is so rusty that you might break it and then you're in for more work!

First, I reccomend you perform the fuel flow/pressure test at the return line to the fuel tank.  This tests the whole fuel circuit.
Second, check the main fuel filter.  Very easy job and correct filters are cheap.
Third, remove gage sending unit in trunk, under plastic cap, and look in the fuel tank through the top.  Use a flash light to look for rust or other sediment.  If found, drain the fuel tank and remove it.  You can clean out 90% of the rust flakes yourself (using garden hose nossel and lots of drying time).  Remove the in-tank filter and clean around the fuel passages it uses.
Fourth, perform the fuel flow/pressure test again to see what advances you have made.

Oh, and read this tour:
http://index.php?topic=1712

Rodd
Pagoda Technical Manual
please contibute: http://www.sl113.org/wiki/pmwiki.php
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dseretakis

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Re: non running 280SL
« Reply #41 on: March 15, 2008, 11:53:46 »
Rodd, would you recommend checking the flow/pressure at the fuel return line which is located in the engine compartment or the line as it enters the fuel tank? It seems as if it might be easier in the engine compartment. Also, once I crack the line open and attach the gauge to the proximal end, wont the distal end of the line start sucking in air as the pump is running?  It will be a couple of weeks before I get back to working on the car so I'll keep you all posted with my progress.  Thanks,
Dimitri
quote:
Originally posted by rwmastel

quote:
Originally posted by dseretakis

As far as the pump goes, I might have to try out the artist's brush technique or just take the pump out and bring it to my air compressor.  Of course beind a northeast car the bolts that mount the pump to the bracket are rusted and will not budge.  I'll just keep spraying them with penetrating oil and try my new MAC edge wrenches on them.
Dimitri,
Please attack the easy items first!  Don't hassle with removing the electric fuel pump, just do the artist brush test.  You never know what is so rusty that you might break it and then you're in for more work!

First, I reccomend you perform the fuel flow/pressure test at the return line to the fuel tank.  This tests the whole fuel circuit.
Second, check the main fuel filter.  Very easy job and correct filters are cheap.
Third, remove gage sending unit in trunk, under plastic cap, and look in the fuel tank through the top.  Use a flash light to look for rust or other sediment.  If found, drain the fuel tank and remove it.  You can clean out 90% of the rust flakes yourself (using garden hose nossel and lots of drying time).  Remove the in-tank filter and clean around the fuel passages it uses.
Fourth, perform the fuel flow/pressure test again to see what advances you have made.

Oh, and read this tour:
http://index.php?topic=1712

Rodd
Pagoda Technical Manual
please contibute: http://www.sl113.org/wiki/pmwiki.php
1966 230SL
2006 C230 Sport Sedan


dseretakis

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Re: non running 280SL
« Reply #42 on: April 03, 2008, 12:49:32 »
Well, I'm back to tackling my non-running 280SL.  Over the past 2 days I replaced the main fuel filter in the engine compartment.  It looked like it hadn't been changed in a while but otherwise didn't seem to be particularly dirty.  I put an air gun nozzle to the return line as it exits the engine compartment. It seems to be patent as I heard bubbles in the fuel tank.  I removed the small 6mm bolt on the side of the CSV and  turned ignition to #1 position.  No fuel leak.  The CSV has power as tested with a test light while cranking the engine.  Next thing I'll do is spray some starting fluid into intake.  If car runs then I'll delve into the fuel tank-a task which I've been dreading.  
Dimitri.

dsayars

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Re: non running 280SL
« Reply #43 on: April 06, 2008, 13:47:50 »
I drove my 230SL only a very little bit when I first got it. Then it spent the next five years on the patio while I rebuilt the rusted out floor and cross members, and I'm only now beginning to drive it again. It had always started very hard and needed a lot of gas pedal to keep it going until warm. It would also stall and part of the problem was loose rust that would gather in the sump of the fuel tank,  around the filter, the "flowerpot."  I've removed gobs of this with a magnetic pickup tool (rust flakes are still are mostly iron).

Once I got the car back together enough to drive it (that was about two weeks ago), it was starting harder than ever and soon it wasn't starting at all. I separated the CSV from the intake manifold and saw that with the ignition on, it was leaking in a continuous fine spurt. I removed and cleaned it, and that fixed the leak, but the car still wouldn't start. I checked the WRD (warm running thermostat) on the injection pump, which performs the same function as the choke and fast idle on a carbureted engine. I'd checked it once before and found a lot of corrosion, which I cleaned out. Checking it again, I found that cleaning hadn't been enough: the value was stuck closed. I got it loose with a slide hammer, then cleaned and oiled it so it would move up and down with the thermostat. This should have fixed the cold start and warm-up problem, but the car still wouldn't start. So I pulled all the spark plugs, cleaned them, and ran them under hot water to warm them up (I don't know why this helps, but it usually does). The car finally started and better yet, it started and stayed started since the WRD was now working for the first time.

Suggestions:

1. First conquer your fear of the fuel tank and do the magnet test/clean, it's really the easiest of the jobs I've described and you don't even need to drain any fuel. (Don't use the wimpy tool that looks like a car antenna, use the heavy-duty one with the snake neck.) While you're at it, it's worthwhile to check for water in the same place, using a turkey baster. If what comes out forms drops on a surface, there's water.

2. Test the cold start valve by separating it from the manifold with everything still connected. See if it squirts or dribbles fuel with the ignition on, then manually activate it by jumpering to the battery to see if it sprays properly like an aerosol. (Don't touch the live wire to the valve terminal, there will be a spark, clamp the disconnected wire to it, then make contact at the battery terminal. Or use a remote start switch.) If it leaks or doesn't spray properly, remove and clean it.

3. Remove the thermostat part of the WRD and check to see that the valve isn't stuck closed and moves up and down with the thermstat action. (It's a piston-type valve.) If not, remove and clean it as I described above. Then you'll know you have your choke and fast idle functionalty.

4. When the car still won't start, try the spark plug clean-and- warm I described.

P.S. Congratulations on your compression. Mine's about 135 straight across.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2008, 12:03:59 by dsayars »

dseretakis

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Re: non running 280SL
« Reply #44 on: April 06, 2008, 17:10:29 »
I sprayed starting fluid in the intake and it didn't change anything.  The car would run roughly for a minute or so with an occasional backfire while keeping the gas pedal partially depressed and then stall.  I took out the fuel sending unit and peered into the gas tank which looked remarkably clean with bright shiny metal.  I could see the opening at the base of the flower pot which also appeared clear visually.  Also, the last time I checked fuel pressure and volume I used a pressure gauge  which had an outlet for checking flow.  Using this I got a flow of 250cc/15sec.  Wondering if the fuel gauge was in anyway restricting the flow, I decided to just put a hose on the fuel line at the CSV.  From there I measured about 600cc/15 sec which is much better but still less than the required liter.  So, here I stand contemplating what to do.  I have a fuel tank that looks pretty darn clean, but a suboptimal flow rate with good fuel pressure.  I guess draining my clean tank to get to the in tank filter which will probably be clean should be the next step.  I was also thinking that maybe the fuel pump is not strong.  But again I had checked current at the fuse which was 3.2A.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2008, 17:22:08 by dseretakis »

ja17

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Re: non running 280SL
« Reply #45 on: April 06, 2008, 22:03:41 »
Hello,

You might want to check and make sure the rack on the injection pump is not stuck.

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

Longtooth

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Re: non running 280SL
« Reply #46 on: April 07, 2008, 00:30:12 »
Something doesn't sound right about the symptom's related directly to the fuel lines or fuel tank issues (clogged lines, etc).  The fuel filter at the engine is a cup which fills with gas no matter whether there's a low flow or semi-clogged line or filter at the tank.  Turning on the ignition (not starting the engine) activates the fuel pump and forces whatever fuel is getting thru to the fuel filter which eventually fills up unless there's an absolute clog with no fuel getting thru at all.

Therefore, when starting the car after letting the fuel filter cup fill up, it should start fine with no stumble's just as it did before the problem started, no?  It would only stall when the cup runneth dry....  UNLESS the problem's somewhere between the fuel filter and injectors at the intake.

So, despite the lower than normal flow rate described, the flow rate should be more than sufficient for a smooth idle for any duration (given any gas in the tank).

When I finally took my car out of the garage (16 years sitting idle) and had engine rebuilt, etc, it sat idling at the shop for quite a while, then I drove away and after about 6 miles the engine sputtered and died.  It restarted again easily right after I coasted to a stop.... about 60 sec's worth... but stalled again right after I got going again.... maybe drove 100 meters.  I kept this exercise up several times until I was able to get off the free-way and onto a side street.  While walking a couple of blocks to a phone (I didn't have a cell at that time), calling the shop and telling them to send a tow truck and come pick it up, and getting back to the car, it started right up again... and I drove it 2 blocks without a hiccup to the service station where the tow truck would pick it up.

It turned out to be a rusty fuel tank and sufficient fuel was getting thru for slow speed (low rpm) driving, but step on the throttle to accelerate to 60 and before it got there the engine was being fuel starved and died.  The initial observation that I could wait a couple of minutes and start it up again and drive it another 100 meters was related to the fact that that's how much fuel was in the fuel filter cup... and the fuel filter was now nearly fully clogged.... so fuel would only be forced thru it by 'seeping' thru whatever remaining pours there were.

My point is that even with a dirty tank and rust galore, the car should start up and idle without any issues at all after giving the fuel enough time to seep into the fuel filter cup and fill it... even IF the fuel line's nearly completely clogged between tank and filter.... so the symptoms described indicate a problem between the filter and engine intake... not primarily with something between the tank and fuel filter.

Have you checked for proper operation of the cold start value (cooling water thermostat) which controls the fuel/air mixture on starting and adjusts continuosly as the water temperture increases, eventually leaning out the mixture at water temperature 65-68C.  It doesn't sound like the time over which the car starts and then stalls is very long (less than a minute?... I haven't seen any time from start to stalling in the thread) so the water temperautres assumedly never getting very warm.  If the mixture's rich enough to start, but stay's too rich to remain running then perhaps the thermstat valve's stuck in the 'rich' position.

Also, fyi, the fuel delivery system delivers far more fuel at all times than is needed for full throttle operation, so even with the flow's you've described, there should be more than ample fuel to remain at idle.  

Also, an admittedly absurd suggestion, but since you've done the spark (ignition) bit already.... it's down to a fuel or air problem.  Focus has been on fuel... but have you checked the linkages to the venturi and assured it's opening properly? Apparently while driving along just fine the problem suddenly caused the car to die and you haven't been able to keep it at idle ever since... so 1st pass analysis says something got broke or stuck and is staying stuck.
 
BTW, what year/model is the W113 you're referring to?

Longtooth
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« Last Edit: April 07, 2008, 02:09:06 by Longtooth »

dseretakis

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Re: non running 280SL
« Reply #47 on: April 07, 2008, 10:55:19 »
Joe, I read through the injection pump tour and you mention that on later pumps (my car is a '71) "the rack end has an m4 threaded hole on all except the latest pumps which were solid".  What do you mean by this?  Is there a different method for checking the rack on a 71 280SL?  Also, I thought that a stuck rack was something that happened from inactivity or dirty fuel.  As Longtooth mentioned, my car just stalled out as I was driving home suggesting that something broke.  Thinking back to that day I even recall checking the fuel pump fuse which was burned out.  I replaced it, the fuel pump started working but the car still wouldn't start.  This whole thing is just getting too strange.
Dimitri

quote:
Originally posted by ja17

Hello,

You might want to check and make sure the rack on the injection pump is not stuck.

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio


Longtooth

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Re: non running 280SL
« Reply #48 on: April 08, 2008, 11:42:32 »
Dimitri,
Assuming something got stuck or broke, rather than a fuel delivery to the injector pump problem, have you checked the venturi? If it's stuck or the spring broke then....?

In general diagnosing a problem to it's source is either very, very simple, or not (duh).  In your case I think it's long since past the simple type diagnosis.

When a problem doesn't lend itself to a simple diagnosis of it's source,the only option is to use a rigorous approach.  You've already gone thru the ignition issues (plugs, points, condenser, coil, wires from distributor to plugs), so that leaves fuel / air.

On the fuel side, the rigorous obvious question is whether fuel's getting to each of the intake ports continuously for sufficient duration to maintain an idle and then increase with throttle applied.  Less rigorously, and st the question is whether fuel's coming out of the injector pump ports on schedule. Basically, these questions apply to whether the pump's operating properly....

On the pump questions, at least one of the auxillary funcitons related to the "pump" is at the CSV... I already posed the question as to whether the Cold Start Valve is working as it should, since this controls the fuel (leaning it out from an initially rich mixture as water temperature increases).  

For air, it boils down to the air intake filter or the venturi I think.  I'd personally have difficulty believing that the air intake filter is problematic, but the rigourous approach to diagnosis starts there for air.  If not that, then the venturi.

One thing which might help in diagnosis is more detail related to starting and idling:

 1. How long the engine can idle without throttle applied (beyond perhaps the initial startup throttle applied --- though I don't use any throttle on starting up).  

 2. Does it initially idle without fits? and if so, how long after initial good idlel before it starts hiccuping or simply coughs and dies?

 3. How far and for how long had you been driving since it's most recent immediately preceeding start-up when the engine died the last time you drove it?... and was it cold outside or just a balmy DC 55 degr F?

 4. How long had you driven the car (& how many times) before that last drive?

 5. Had you ever noticed any starting problems before... mild or not so mild ones?

 6. How long (how often had you driven) after the previous mechanic's (or self) "tune-up" had occurred?



Longtooth
67 250SL US #113-043-10-002163
The 6% Club - Best of the Best
'02 SL500 Sport

dseretakis

  • Guest
Re: non running 280SL
« Reply #49 on: April 08, 2008, 20:21:29 »
Longtooth,
The venturi seems to work fine it opens and closes freely.

Without physically observing the function of the CSV, it works.  That is, there is no leakage from the bolt hole on the side of the valve once the bolt is removed and a test light lights up upon cranking the engine.  I do plan on removing the CSV and observing the flow of fuel first hand.

I'll try to answer all the other questions:

Q 1. How long the engine can idle without throttle applied (beyond perhaps the initial startup throttle applied --- though I don't use any throttle on starting up).

A The engine will not idle at all without applied throttle.  I have to keep throttle applied just enough to keep it running, too much or too little and it will stall.

Q 2. Does it initially idle without fits? and if so, how long after initial good idlel before it starts hiccuping or simply coughs and dies?

A It never has good idle.  After 15 secs and a little more throttle, the idle will smooth out a bit but the car will put out a profuse amount of white/gray smoke and then backfire a few times.

Q 3. How far and for how long had you been driving since it's most recent immediately preceeding start-up when the engine died the last time you drove it?... and was it cold outside or just a balmy DC 55 degr F?

A The last time I drove the car, I was using it as a daily driver for 3 months.  About 20 miles per day with some a few miles being highway.  It was probably around 65 degrees F.

Q 4. How long had you driven the car (& how many times) before that last drive?

A As above.  I have owned the car for 11 years.  It has gone back and forth from being used one or twice a month to being a daily driver for a few months to a year at a time.

Q 5. Had you ever noticed any starting problems before... mild or not so mild ones?

A The car always started well except for when it needed new points or a point adjustment.  It has had one major overhaul.  I hate to admit this, but while in medical school and worried less about my car than my studies, I was not keeping track of engine coolant level.  This car at the time did not have a functioning temp gauge.  Well, one evening, I was driving on the highway when suddenly, poof.  A mist of coolant in my face and the car stopped running.  I pulled over, popped the hood and there you have it.  The car over heated, and warped the head.  
That was in 2001.  The car got the head replaced with a rebuilt one and had been running fine ever since.

Q 6. How long (how often had you driven) after the previous mechanic's (or self) "tune-up" had occurred?

A Last tune up had been performed by a mechanic about 8 months prior to when car was last running.  I don't believe much beyond points.

Dimitri





quote:
Originally posted by Longtooth

Dimitri,
Assuming something got stuck or broke, rather than a fuel delivery to the injector pump problem, have you checked the venturi? If it's stuck or the spring broke then....?

In general diagnosing a problem to it's source is either very, very simple, or not (duh).  In your case I think it's long since past the simple type diagnosis.

When a problem doesn't lend itself to a simple diagnosis of it's source,the only option is to use a rigorous approach.  You've already gone thru the ignition issues (plugs, points, condenser, coil, wires from distributor to plugs), so that leaves fuel / air.

On the fuel side, the rigorous obvious question is whether fuel's getting to each of the intake ports continuously for sufficient duration to maintain an idle and then increase with throttle applied.  Less rigorously, and st the question is whether fuel's coming out of the injector pump ports on schedule. Basically, these questions apply to whether the pump's operating properly....

On the pump questions, at least one of the auxillary funcitons related to the "pump" is at the CSV... I already posed the question as to whether the Cold Start Valve is working as it should, since this controls the fuel (leaning it out from an initially rich mixture as water temperature increases).  

For air, it boils down to the air intake filter or the venturi I think.  I'd personally have difficulty believing that the air intake filter is problematic, but the rigourous approach to diagnosis starts there for air.  If not that, then the venturi.

One thing which might help in diagnosis is more detail related to starting and idling:

 1. How long the engine can idle without throttle applied (beyond perhaps the initial startup throttle applied --- though I don't use any throttle on starting up).  

 2. Does it initially idle without fits? and if so, how long after initial good idlel before it starts hiccuping or simply coughs and dies?

 3. How far and for how long had you been driving since it's most recent immediately preceeding start-up when the engine died the last time you drove it?... and was it cold outside or just a balmy DC 55 degr F?

 4. How long had you driven the car (& how many times) before that last drive?

 5. Had you ever noticed any starting problems before... mild or not so mild ones?

 6. How long (how often had you driven) after the previous mechanic's (or self) "tune-up" had occurred?



Longtooth
67 250SL US #113-043-10-002163
The 6% Club - Best of the Best
'02 SL500 Sport