Injector Pump help

[230slhouston]

 :?:
My joy was short lived, I started my 1966 230sl warehoused for 20 years.   I installed the fuel pump kit and it works great. Seems like the car is having fuel problems, it was not firing properly on all cylinders. Now it won't start at all, seems like it wants to start (oink oink). I checked the CSV, it worked fine.

I removed the injector pipes from the pump and cranked the engine, I did not get fuel coming out of all the ports. I read some of the threads on the board and decided to take out the pump. I have the timing marks at 20 ATDC.

From all the forums and pictures, I do not see any pump looking like mine. I will include some pictures. The plate on the pump says R11. Any idea how to free up the ports?

[230slhouston]

I am having a problem uploading the pictures.

Thanks
MBP

[230slhouston]

One more tfry withs Pics.

Thank MBP

[merrill]

ok, there are some other things you could have done before pulling the inj pump.

1. is your fuel pump in the rear of the car humming when the ign key is turned on?
2. did you check the fuel pressure at the CSV?

3. if you did work on the fuel system you could have primed the pump buy pulling a vacuum at the return line between where it leaves the pump and returns to the fuel dampner.  I had to do this when I got my fuel system back togetherr because the fuel pump was not humming when I turned the key on.  It needed to be primed.

I'd put everything back together, check items 1 - 3, then get some inexpensive test lights and check that the csv, inj pump selenoid and wrd switch are all working.

once you get the car started you can check the inj pump thermostat as the car warms up to make sure the air stops flowing once the car gets to 80 c.

Also, what condition are your plugs, points and have you checked the valves and dwell?


Matt
Austin Tx
66 230 sl - "white"
78 300 D - Blue
98 C230

[230slhouston]

Matt,
I did check the CSV before removing the pump. It is energized for 2 seconds when cold. I removed the little bolt and there were 2 powerful squirts before cutting off. The car started and ran for a while after I installed the pump kit.

The fuel pump was humming and fuel was flowing through the return line.

What I did find out this evening though is the port 3 from the back of the IP, had the valve stuck. I tried tapping this with golf ball a T but it would not budge. I used a soft piece if metal (same diameter) as the T and one firm tap, it moved. After some gentle tapping and turning the pump, it in moves freely with every turn of the pump.

The rack now operates and I can see the port valves rotate slightly. When I took the starting solenoid (mine has one i guess this is waht it is) and move the rack, it rotates more then just using the linkage. How much should it rotate just with the linkage?  When the engine is running and the governor operating, will it rotate more?

I did see it move freely and protrude from the front when I press the lever from the starting solenoid.

Any other suggestions? I plan to assemble the pump and install it tomorrow morning.

Thanks
MBP

[ja17]

Hello MBP,
You are moving fast, we are usually a bit more cautious before jumping into the complexities of the fuel injection. However, it sounds like your on the right track if you had a stuck plunger in the IP. The plungers in the pump will not rotate very far and the rack will not move much  if the pump is not turning at fairly high rpms.  This is logical since The position of the rack controls fuel quantity and at idle the quantitiy of fuel delivered is very low and when not turning at all, the rack moves even less!

The pumps in the IP Tour are from the 250 series and 280 series. The R11 is correct for your 230SL. So your pump is correct but  is a bit different.

Be careful not to get get the pump 180 degrees off time. Timing is 20 ATDC  on the compression stroke #1 cylinder (both front cam lobes pointing upward 10:00 o'clock, 2:00 o'clock)

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio

[230slhouston]

Hi Joe,
Thanks for the info and feedback.

I installed the pump, 20 ATDC, firing on the first cylinder (rotor points to 1 as well). Now I see the rack fully extended when the engine is cranked, implying the starting solenoid is working. The CSV is energised for two seconds.

I am still not having any luck starting the car. The engine refuses to start, seem like it wants to take but will not fire up. I checked the spark by pulling the plug wire and holding it close to the tappet cover, there is a spark jump.

Any help out there as to what other trouble shooting to do?

Thanks
MBP

[merrill]

have you checked the timing?  set the timing at 3 deg atdc with the motor off.

If you get it started, the time the motor with the timing light.

Matt
Austin Tx
66 230 sl - "white"
78 300 D - Blue
98 C230

[230slhouston]

Matt,
I checked the timing, it looks OK. Still no luck.

Thanks
MBP

[ja17]

Hello,

If you have fuel, spark on time and compression, the car should start. Crack loose all the injector lines at the injectors to see if a bit of fuel is being delivered to each cylinder during cranking. It will take a lot of cranking to fill the injector lines with fuel.  Hold the linkage full open. Your electric fuel pump should be delivering around 11psi to 15psi to the injector pump. Make sure your spark plugs are fresh. Jump a hot lead to your intake starting valve for an instant during starting to help get it started if needed. Check your compression if in doubt. Your engine must be static  timed correctly  and you make sure you do not have any major vacuum leaks (brake booster hose etc.)

Good luck.



Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio

[hands_aus]

Shouldn't the CSV operate for a bit longer?
Maybe the Thermo Time Switch is not working properly.

Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto

[230slhouston]

I did crack the fuel lines to the injectors, on cranking the engine, I am getting fuel squirting out. How do I measure the fuel pressure/volume at fuel pump oulet or at the injectors?

I did check the jets of the CSV, it has two of them. Should this be a spray of fuel? all I get is a couple of drops. This is what I did: I removed the CSV unit, removed the needle and seat, assemble the unit and did not reinstall in the intake manifold and screwed in the fuel line to it. Turned on the key to see how fuel squirts through the two nozzles, all I get is fuel dripping out with a steady flow, no spray.
There does not seem to be any dirt or blockage in the lines. BY unscrewing the fuel delivery line and turning on the key, there a gush of fuel.

I even hot wired the CSV solenoid to keep it open.

Question, Tried spraying starting fuel in the intake as well, if the csv was not working, it should have started.

Thanks
MBP

[merrill]

so, to check your fuel pressure, go to pep boys and buy a vacuum / fuel pressure tester kit,  it is about $14 bucks.

then, disconnect the fuel line at the cold start selenoid and connect the guage.  either have someone turn on the key or make the connection from the css to gage long (plenty of tubing in kit) you should have over 15 psi at the css.

you car should start even with out this working. it is not that cold in tx now.

if the csv is not working properly hans at H&r can rebuild it.

do you hear the selenoid on the back of the inj pump clicking off and on when you start the car. I picked up some low voltage test lights and am able to hook up some leads and view if the selenoid is coming on .

I also do the same thing with the css.

you can also test the thermo time switch,  search the forum for the correct method.

Even if all of these are not working your car should start?

did you check timing?  if not set it at 3 det atcd when the car is off.
did you check the dwell?

I picked up the product in the link at vans in austin, pep boys carries them for about $50 bucks,
very helpful
http://www.actron.com/product_detail.php?pid=16155

from what I recall in your thread you have spark so, that system appears to be working correctly., I assume the plugs looked ok.

have you checked the voltage after the ballas resistor?
have you messed at all with the idle air screw or linkages?
have you messed at all with the fuel mixure screw on the back of the pump?

stick with it, you will figure it out.  as joe said all you need spark and fuel and the car should run.

get back with us

Matt
Austin Tx
66 230 sl - "white"
78 300 D - Blue
98 C230

[ja17]

Hello,

You can also try a little starting fluid.  If the engine fires up with it, then you definately have a fuel delivery problem.

Be careful, if the engine caughs back through the intake you may have a little fire! No big deal unless you are not prepared to snuff it out.

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio

[230slhouston]

Mattand Joe,
Thanks for the reply.
I did try starting fluid. This was the first thing I did, no luck. Tried it again yesterday.

The solenoid on the back of the pump is working. When starting, you can see the rack being pushed all the way forward, about half an inch protruding thorugh the IP front.

have you checked the voltage after the ballas resistor? No. I thought about replacing this. I was thinking of replacing the coils as well just in case.
have you messed at all with the idle air screw or linkages? No
have you messed at all with the fuel mixure screw on the back of the pump? No.

I set the static timimg on TDC, it should start with this.

If I am not divorced by the weekend, I will take all the comments and try it, hopefully when I start it, my wife will beleive me.

Thanks for all the guidance.

MBP

[ja17]

Hello MBP,

Starting fluid should have brought your engine to life. Your engine is either not sucking fuel into the cylinders or you are not getting spark! My suspicion is that your new spark plugs have been washed out during the starting attemps.  Ten bucks for a fresh set of spark plugs may be the ticket.  You can also  bypass the ballast resistor temporarily to increase spark at the plugs.

If you determine you have good spark, check the compression to make sure everything is in order as far as your engine internals.

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio

[230slhouston]

Quick update to all, today is my lucky day, I started my car. Here is what I did,

I removed the distributor and found that advance mechanism was seized ( I guess from standing for 20 years).I removed as much components as I could and sprayed WD40 in the distributor. I also found that the previous person who put in the distributor had it rotated 180 degrees. The rotor was pointing firing on one opposite the marker on the distributor. This was not a big deal but removing the bolts was a hassle. Once the components were eased, I installed and set the static timing.

I also removed the plugs cranked the engine a couple of times and tried an old trick from my childhood observation days, I dipped the plugs in gasoline and struck a match to them (care must be taken). The purpose of this was to wash and dry out the plugs as well warm them a little. Joe also suggested the plugs may be flooded.
Once installed, I turned on the key for a few secs to let the pump build some pressure, with the accelerator half way down, I cranked the engine. Barely a couple of turns, it fired right up. This was even done with the CSV disconnected.

This is now history. Thanks for all the input. I will start a fresh message with new questions.

MBP.

[merrill]

MBP,

so, I would not focus too much on the csv.  on my sl it was disconnected (actually valve removed and plugged) for probably 12 years when the car was in hawaii.

It probalby only makes a big difference when the temp outside is really cold.

sounds like you are making headway,
matt

Matt
Austin Tx
66 230 sl - "white"
78 300 D - Blue
98 C230