What US State are W113 Pagoda SL Members From

[Longtooth]

I'm curious about where the US members of this forum are located geographically within the US... i.e. by State.  If there were a Pagoda SL Group shin-dig sometime in the US, where would one be most likely to draw the largest number of participants?

In purusing posted messages over time I've got the impression most current members are from east of the Big Muddy (proportional to the proportion of US population from that side of the river?), while I also have the distinct impression from other posts (topic on how often members observe W113's in general) that most of the generally observed W113's are on the west coast --- Southern CA?

Interesting dicotomy if these impressions are true.  I'm wondering why there would be more Pagoda SL Group members signed on from the Eastern half of the US while (if) there are proportionately more W113's on the West Coast.

Some off-the-top possible answers that occur to me...

1) Pagoda SL Group members are more dyi'ers and enthusiasts with direct interests in the details and care and well being of their SL regardless of who works on them.... contrasted with higher proportion of SL owners on West Coast are drivers only.... for show? prestige?... rather than direct interest in the car's details itself.  

P.S. I'm a Northern CA owner.... so my statement above isn't intended to incure the wrath of the other proportion of west coast owners that have an intense interest in care and feeding of their SL, nor those that own for presige / bragging rights only.

2) Possibly more numerous SL's on West Coast concentrated in LA, SF, Portland, Seattle metro area's make them appear to be less 'rare' so not perceived or recognized to be as big a deal ... hence less direct interest in finding out more about their own SL or whether they are 'original' or not intended for appreciation value.

3) West coast is more of a throw-away car culture?... use'em and abuse'em then buy new? Therefore W113's are 'interesting' but not new enough to get excited about and not old enough to be considered real classics .... yet? Don't really know since I've not resided in Eastern US so can't compare car cultures.

P.S. West Coast W113 prices (sans rust) generally average ~$28K ask, $20K - $25K bid for drivers.  Good finds are occassionally available currently for $12K - $16K.... probably in need of at least one or more of a new soft-top, a paint job, and engine overhaul, plus odds and ends.  Of course the street restored ones with all numbers matching, papers and maintenance/repairs in order, nice paint, original condition, unblemished chrome with no clearly visible dents are in the $35K - $38K ask range.... manual's (10's) generally seem to command a small premium over automatics (12's). Not generally found at a dealer but thru friends of friends, local newspaper adds or on the internet --- the latter give rise to considerable questions about the real condition of the car's details.... how much is just gloss meant to look good, but with otherwise low intrinsic value when it gets down to the nitty gritty.  I bring these West coast prices up because at any given point in time within the greater SF bay area (i.e. within 60 - 80 miles of SF) for example, you may be able to come across 20 or so being offered for sale thru the above sources (if you hunt)... from '65 230SL's to '70 280SL's... all drivers in need of some level of work and expense up to those that appear to need little if anything done to them. This may be indicative of the west coast availability of SL's in a reasonably small geographic area (i.e. concentration) compared to major cities / metro-area's east of the big muddy.

I talked to a seller here 3 weeks ago (asking $20K for an early '68 280SL manual) that "said" he was selling (after owning for 4 years) because he and his wife decided they weren't getting as much use of the SL with their small (new) family after there 1st 2 kids  I was thinking of offering $16K and maybe paying up to $18K max but he'd already snagged a buyer at $18K.  I wasn't too enthusiastic though because he "said" he didn't know what "numbers" I was talking about when I asked him for the car's SN... all he could cite was the CA VIN which leaves off the relevant information other than the last 6 digits.... he also didn't know whether the car was originally an automatic converted to a manual or anything about the prior owner.... he bought it from a 'dealer' that uses a website to 'advertise' SL's consigned by the owners ---- the 'dealer' get's a commission.   Warning, if the car's owner doesn't know the pedigree be veerrrry leary and careful... use the recommendations (listed on this and other enthusiast W113 web-sites) on what to look for before buying or use an experienced SL expert to look at it for you.

Anyway what are the US state locations of members of this forum?

Longtooth
67 250SL US #113-043-10-002163
95 SL500

[Douglas]

NY here. In fact, NY, NY. I know of a couple of other people in this Forum from the same locale.

Perhaps part of the reason that there is a large East Coast representation here is that word of mouth -- literally -- is part of how this Forum has grown. People tell friends, especially at car shows. Just a theory, of course.

Other possible theories: Perhaps the SL is just yet another beautiful classic car on the West Coast, while on the East Coast it is a bit more special or rare and, therefore, worthy of adulation. (Your second point.)

Certainly it's fair to say that you have to work a little harder to ensure the survival of a classic car on the East Coast, at least the northeast part of it. A formal network aimed at "mutual survival" certainly makes sense when you think of it that way.

Think of it this way -- I'll bet if there were 2 Pagodas in Alaska, those 2 owners would be in touch constantly and would have their own "club" of sorts  (assuming they know each other existed, of course).

One final theory: Maybe the existing "infrastructure" for Pagoda owners on the West Coast is better than it is on the East Coast, so people in the West are already content  with their current affiliations/clubs. For example, the local chapter of the Mercedes Club of America.

I would also like to add that I think your observations about pricing are extremely interesting and worthy of their own topic/posting here. There are lots of other people in the market for a Pagoda in this forum who would be interested in adding their 2 cents. On the West Coast though, it may be closer to 3 cents owing to lack of rust.    :-)

Douglas Kim
New York, NY
#018260

[France]

I'm originally a NCa girl and lived in Alamo, east of SF.  

For various reasons I relocated to Sarasota Florida on the gulf coast, but I normally live in Alsace, France when I'm not in Calif or FL or Germany.  I always wanted a Pagoda when I lived in CA, but I never could gather the courage.  As you point out, you have to be very careful of provenance.  But after moving to FL I saw one on eBay and bought it sight unseen.  She is perfect in every way, needs only cosmetics and the engine is like new.  All numbers match.  

I would be very interested in a Southern get-together of Pagodas, but it would have to be in winter or spring--I will never spend a summer in FL...



Trice
1968 280SL US, signal/bl leather, auto

[n/a]

I am in Houston where I don't need to put my toy away come winter.
There are several other contributors from Houston and a few more from other Texas locations.

Regards,
Stan

[n/a]

Not sure what the concentration of Pagoda owners in the US is. I lived in various parts of the world and here are my observatins:
- I spent 10 years in Washington DC and I think I came across 4 cars(I left in 1999).
- Before that I lived in Maryland and saw a handful.
- I also lived in Wisconsin (not sure why) and have seen no more than that.
- In Beirut I've seen 5.
- In Amman I know there are 3 or 4 (but there's a very nice Gullwing that belonged to the late King Hussein).
- Here in Dubai I am making a list of all Pagodas that may exist. I was able to dig out 4 (two were literally burried in the desert sand). 2 were 280's and one 230. I will attempt to get more info on all of them and perhaps ask the owners to join the group).

As far as prices go, I have looked at hundreds of adverts for 280 SL's in the last four months or so (mostly in the US) with no clear trend that I could point to. I could say this though: The range I've seen was $7,000 - Euro 50,000. The 50k was a very low miles original US model located in Europe.

C&CS magazine gives the following guidelines (in Europe of course): 22K (British Pound) for a show car, and 10,000 (BP) for an average car. While Thoroughbread & Classic Cars Magazine gives 18,000 (BP) for the show quality, and 11,500 (BP) for the average car. Asking prices, however, are almost never below 21,000 (BP) for average or a little above average cars.

Is 50k a realistic figure? I think it's very inflated. I'm not sure if you can get this much for a zero miles, mint car. I can understand that people tend to put a $ value on their emotional attachment to their Pagodas, and this is understandable. However, if we leave it up to market forces I think the prices would be a lot lower.
(sorry for the long message....not even 2 cents worth, but what the heck).

Mo
Desperately seeking Pagoda

[blairwag]

I'm in New Jersey, in a little town called Franklin. The closest city you'll see on the map is Morristown, which is about 15 miles south-southeast (as the crow flies). I'm not far from the NY and PA borders.
I do put the "little red car" away for the winter, basically, with a few nice-day drives maybe in December.


--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
William Blair Wagner: blairwag@earthlink.net
Education is not always knowing the answer,
...but rather knowing where to look for it!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Cees Klumper]

Hi all - if you click on the 'members' button (top right) and scroll down to the US, you can click on each US member and, if they provided the information (most did) you can see which state they are from. Takes some doing, but the information is there and accessible.
As for prices - in the US prices are (still) lower than in Europe. In Germany they seem to be the highest. In The Netherlands (probably representative for Europe outside of Germany) the price of a good (not show/fully restored) Pagoda is around $25,000. In the US, it seems more like $20,000.
The cost of truly, fully restoring a Pagoda is around $80,000 if you have it all done by professionals. Needless to say, you would have to hold onto it for a long time to reap the benefits, economically speaking.

Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic

[Bob G ✝︎]

Long tooth:

   I am from Los Angeles, California my car is the white Grey SL with the black top in our internet picture. there is quite a following of intrest for these cars, and yes I try and work on my own SL my tool receipts will credit to my pocket book being empty and all the manuals sitting in my office. I had a very successufull  Pagoda meet in 2000 and we had 5 SLs including mine here for that day. All the partisapants where intrested in doing a lot of the work them selfs.
Prices for these cars seem to go for more in California, I cannot explain why other than the sunny weather we are noted for and the fact that if you drive a Mercedes-Benz SL people tend to notice you more. My car was purchased from my father's second wife so not a gift as I had hoped it at lease came with a history and all the manuals , tools and paper work to trace its heratige.
While alot of people I meet who own these cars may not do the work them selfs they do have an intrest and knoledge of the cars petigree and some do try to fine the best car mechanics for their SL as possible.
I am hoping that as this Group progresses through another year we can grow the ownership experience of this model and make new friends who will join if for no other reason than to go on an occasional outing with their SL with other members. This group is both a technical and fun group to be with and it is my hope that just as the 300SL group we will have our own place at future Mercedes-Benz events.
Bob Geco
1968 280SL Purchased new European delivery

[J. Huber]

Interesting stuff. Well, I would be willing to bet that the U.S. state with the most Pagodas is indeed California. I think this is partly the sheer size of the place and partly the sunshine & glamour mystique of the Golden State. (I wish I could just say we all have good taste but..)

I have been here (Calif) 36 years and have had my 230SL for about 20 of them. Over that period, I have always perked up when I saw another (kind of like my dog, I suppose) ... Anyway, one rarely gets by me without me noticing. I grew up in Santa Barbara and can tell you they were plentiful. (At one point, my dad, brother, and brother-in-law all had one!) I have also seen them in numbers around Los Angeles and San Diego, when I lived down there.

I currently live in the northern part (Nevada County, CA) and while there are a few right near me, the Bay Area is where they really seem to be in vogue. In the last two years, we have had Pagoda gatherings of 13 and 9. Now, if somehow the north and south ever join forces, we could have a pretty good turnout!

James
63 230SL

[Benz Dr.]

You guys seem not to understand some basic points about these cars.
1) they're not classic cars
2) numbers matching doesn't mean anything. It may to Corvette owners but not on 113's. Who , out there, will give me another 10K for a numbers matching car,5K, 3K ? WHAT! You won't give me any more for my car than the same car in similar condition that has a different engine?
Just look at auction results and in Hemmings and you will never see them advertised as numbers matching. No one is paying more for something that has no value when all things are otherwise equal.
While it's best to have the correct engine in your car ( 280SL should have a 280 engine) it doesn't matter if it's from an SL,standard or auto, sedan or coupe. It should match the year and configuration but engine variant has no bearing on value. Overall condition does and IS the determining factor when it comes to value.
My car has a 250SE engine from a coupe yet it's a 230SL. This is a better engine for the type of driving I plan to use it for. It was originaly dark green but it's now signal red ( AKA The Red Rocket ) There are a number of engine modifications that are all vintage parts and could have been used on the car when new. The 5 speed trans is an original piece on the car and why I bought it in the first place. The interior needs to be completely redone as well as the soft top. From outward appearances the car is completely stock. I've only changed things to make it more comfortable to drive and to increase performance.

These cars can be found almost everywhere and tend to be most common in big cities. There's probably more of them in rural areas though. If there's 50,000 people living in a nearby city with 5 cars there and 3 cars in the country where only 5,000 live, there's more outside of big urban areas.
I guess the open country roads are more appealing than rush hour traffic when choices are factored in.
Dan c


Daniel G Caron

[Cees Klumper]

So how many Pagoda's are still around these days? Many experts put the number at better than 50% of the production figures, so that would put it at around 30,000 or more.

Dan - what's your definition of a classic car? Most anybody you would ask here in Holland would immediately classify my '69 280 SL as a classic car. What are they missing? :-)

I saw five other Pagoda's yesterday, at Van Dijk's ....

Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic

[Benz Dr.]

Well Cees ,
that's easy to answer.
 It's not my definition - it's the Antique and Classic car Club of America's definition.There are many European cars in the stable so it's not strictly an American club at all. The last full classic was already 15 years old when the first 113 rolled of the line. I don't set the standards- they do. Even a Gullwing is not a classic car. The whole idea of ''classic'' is so over used today that it's almost meaningless.
They are true '' Milestone '' cars which better describes these cars. They're hardly a Duesenburg now are they?
I get into this classic arguement with street rodders and '57 Chevy owners who wouldn't know a real classic car from a wheelbarrow. This is not a snobbish thing at all , it's simply a matter of fact that the classic area was from the late 20's until when WW2 broke out. After the war a few cars that were built to pre war standards were allowed in.
The Milestone Car Club picks up where the classics end in about 1949 and ends in 1972. It includes all 300SL,S,Sc, 190SL, 113's, 111 Coupes,
 220 Cab A , 220S Cab.,and 6.3 There may be a few others but I can't remember.
I like to think of them as vintage - a more genaric , yet pleasing description.
regards,
Dan c

[n/a]

Dan,
Why not call them collectors car?? or collection car??
I say that because I called them "voiture de collection", just the way they are called in France, no problem with classic or anything else!!!!
But then again, Dan you're right!! a collectors item (a word with not much meaning anymore) in North America is not somethimg I would necessarely want to collect....

Fabrice
Silver 1971 280 SL
New York City

[Cees Klumper]

OK. In Europe, I believe pre-WW2 cars are referred to as 'vintage' so here it would be the other way around.

Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic

[Benz Dr.]

I'm pretty sure a true classic car is recognizied as being just that anywhere in the world. For a while European cars were known as blue blood clasics but I think they're all just known as classics now.
Doesn't really matter at all. The one thing we can all say is that 113's are pretty nice cars and deserving of special status like milestone.
Dan c

Daniel G Caron

[n/a]

Philadelphia area, Pennsylvania

Shawn Rock
Philly, PA USA
1968 280 SL 4 speed

[rwmastel]

Columbus, Ohio

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both  tops
1994 E420

[bayleif]

Annapolis Md.

Chuck Bartlett
1969 Signal Red 4 Speed

[LFrank]

Live in the States, but don't currently have one to call my own.

(Stick me with Maryland, as it's across the street!)

This topic brings up something I've long wondered: what port(s) were the original point(s) of entry for US vehicles, and wouldn't that account for a heavier concentration on the Coasts?

And Mr. Geco - your Deutche delivery vehicle landed where? (Mine was GD also, per previous, original, deceased owner).

LFrank
Washington DC
65 230 sl - auto
DB334/Hellblau

[France]

I like what the Germans call almost all old cars, Oldtimers. But their name for really old cars is based on the verb "schnaufen,"  hence the translation: puffers.

   



Trice
1968 280SL US, signal/bl leather, auto

[n/a]

Tucson, AZ  Fall is in the air, and top down driving is just
            just around the corner!

Fred Finney
1970 280SL

[n/a]

Grand Rapids (the West side of the State), Michigan
 

Nervious Newbie `68 280sl

[n/a]

Cragsmoor, New York , a hamlet atop Ice Caves Mountain, approximately two hours northwest on New York City.

[Klaus]

LFrank,
in those years, Mercedes-Benz of NA had 7 Vehicle Preparation Centers (VPC), six of them near the ports of entry:
Newark (Port Elizabeth)
Baltimore (Dundalk)
Jacksonville
Chicago (via Baltimore)
Houston
San Francisco
Los Angeles
The country was divided into 7 Zones, and the VPCs supplied cars to the dealers in their zones. A bias towards concentration on the coasts was not caused by the distribution system, but by demand for foreign cars, which up to today is higher on the coasts.
Today, with many more cars sold, only three VPCs remain (although enlarged/modernized),
Baltimore (Belcamp)
Jacksonville
Los Angeles



Klaus
1969 280 SL

[John A. Dean]

I live in Baton Rouge, LA and one of the few folks around with a 113.  I have seen one red 230 in awful condition, another red one in fair, driveable shape and a Chrysler dealer had a 1969 bastardized 280 with a new engine, wrong interior and incomplete dash that was recently sold to someone on the west coast after sitting in his showroom for several years.  Interestingly, there is a german auto dismantler nearby who has six 113 cars on his lot.  He plans to sell a couple of them and part the others out but he is so disorganized that mostly those cars just sit.  There isn't much of a market for 113 parts here and he hasn't gotten his act together and used Ebay or other sources to sell as of yet.  He has a few rare and expensive parts (eg. red tail light lenses) that he doesn't even have any appreciation for.  Whenever I am in need of something from that kind of source, I will visit him and will likely have to pull the part myself.

1969 280SL, manual, MB TEX, green/cognac