I told you, it's the SALT not the WATER!

[mdsalemi]

Hello All,

I told y'all it's the salt, not the water, that destroys metal and our cars.  Not everyone believes me.

In the February 2008 edition of Lakeland Boating, www.lakelandboating.com there's an article on the now gone NASG-Naval Air Station Glenview (IL) which played an important part in the training of Naval Aviators in WWII and beyond.  Trained there were film star Robert Taylor (husband of Barbara Stanwyck); Neil Armstrong; George H.W. Bush and Gerald Ford, among others.  The article is not available on line.

Training has its issues; 150 planes are/were on the bottom of [need I say it?  fresh water] Lake Michigan.  31 of them have been recovered by A&T Recovery of Chicago http://www.atrecovery.com/.

According to the article, many of the planes raised have been in near pristine condition, preserved in the cold, fresh (and unmentioned--but deep) water.  Fuel still in their tanks, propellers that spin, inflated tires and 12-V batteries that still take a charge.  At least one plane, a Grumman F-4F3 Wildcat, was made to fly again.  Go to the A&T website and see what they've brought up; you can see the fabric rudders gone, but the paint markings still on the planes.  Some look pretty bad--but there's a big difference in how they met their fate then that Pagoda in the river.  Shallow water planes show more damage--animal infestation, etc.

But I tell you, it's the salt, not the water that destroys metal.  I'm sure the unmentioned oxygen levels and sunlight play a part in fresh water preservation.

As for that Neckar River water, well, heck who knows what that car looked like before it took the plunge?

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
President, International Stars Section
Mercedes-Benz Club of America

[Sigman]

Wow, I thought that was common knowledge.  

Cheers,
Michael

--------
Michael Lara
www.mikelarasgarage.com
1969 280SL 4-spd
717 Papyrus White w/ Dark Blue Leather

[JPMOSE]

I have purchased two cars from Oregon:  1956 Lincoln Premiere and my current 1968 250SL.   Both were subjected to a lot of rain.  Both ARE COMPLETELY RUST FREE.  Yes, they were garaged and well taken care of.

Michael is 100% correct!

Best Regards,

J. P. Mose
1968 250SL
1987 560SL

[mdsalemi]

quote:Originally posted by Sigman

Wow, I thought that was common knowledge.  

Cheers,
Michael

--------
Michael Lara
www.mikelarasgarage.com
1969 280SL 4-spd
717 Papyrus White w/ Dark Blue Leather

Mike,

One would think so...but read the posts on car washing.  There's a school of thought that water is detrimental to cars!  I claim its the salt and dirt, not the water...

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
President, International Stars Section
Mercedes-Benz Club of America

[Paddy_Crow]

Actually, it's the combination of salt and water. Salt alone does nothing. Water is a catalyst for oxidizing steel, but much less so than salt water.

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch...

[psmith]

Technically, it rust that destroys our cars.  Rust is the common name for iron oxide, FeO2, which comes from the combination of iron atoms with the oxygen atoms in water.  Salt accelerates the reaction, but it does not cause it.  

I strongly suspect that the depth of the planes is an important factor.  I would guess that there is much less dissolved oxygen in a deep lake then in a shallow flowing river.  

Here's more info. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rust

Pete S.

[glennard]

Mike, Just a question-  Most states, cities now require 'car washs' to recycle their water.  Do they remove the salt, neutralize it, filter, etc?  What is the range of water treatment?  Some washs advertise 'recycle', but don't define what that means.  What does this all mean for Pagoda owners?

[Shvegel]

Lake Superior(average temp below 6 feet 34 degrees F or 2 deg C)
is known for preserving bodies as well. many documented cases of people washing up close to 100 years later and still being recogniseable(sp?).

[mdsalemi]

quote:Originally posted by glennard

Mike, Just a question-  Most states, cities now require 'car washs' to recycle their water.  Do they remove the salt, neutralize it, filter, etc?  What is the range of water treatment?  Some washs advertise 'recycle', but don't define what that means.  What does this all mean for Pagoda owners?

Glennard,

A good question.

"Professional" car washes are divided into two categories--tunnel washes (where your car gets dragged through) and self-serve.  One would NEVER even think, in a million years, of taking their Pagoda into a tunnel wash...at least I don't think so.  We have owners afraid of water, I can't imagine some mechanical contraption grabbing your car and you watching while all these rotating things start to attack your car...did I ever mention the story of the car that got behind a pick-up truck who had baling wire in the back that got wrapped around a rotating soft-cloth machine?  Car nearly got cut in half...

It is tunnel washes that mostly recycle their water.  The water is placed in a series of holding tanks (usually 3) to settle out all the solids.  The oil is separated and dealt with separately by oil reclamation.  The water is then put through any one of a variety of reclaim systems which all claim to take the water down to what is called "5 micron" water.  This is water with many contaminents removed and filtered by a variety of methods, but particulates smaller than 5 microns are still there.

Now read this--this reclaimed water is ONLY good for use for underbody spray and for mixing with soap.  That's it.

No reputable or honest car wash would ever use reclaim water for their rinse water.  It's all fresh--has to be.  You can't get a car clean by using dirty rinse water now, can you?

Some places recycle rain water.  That's clean.  I recycle my reverse-osmosis reject water.  That's water that has already been softened but is rejected during the RO generation process.  It is clean water with a slightly higher mineral content.  I use this in my underbody spray.

Nearly all reclaim systems have an Achille's heel.  For example, some can deal with oil, but emulsified oil (like when you Gunk your engine)will cause these $50,000 systems to stop dead in their tracks.  Others can't deal with any kind of silicone--think Armor-All.

Because a self-serve is generally opened 24/7/365 (hard to close them) and because they are not staffed when open all the time, one cannot control what gets dumped in the drains.  Therefore, adding a reclaim system to a self-serve is difficult--somebody will dump something down there to clog you up.

Pagoda owners?  Use a self serve, or wash at home.

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
President, International Stars Section
Mercedes-Benz Club of America

[rwmastel]

quote:Originally posted by mdsalemi

One would NEVER even think, in a million years, of taking their Pagoda into a tunnel wash...at least I don't think so.

I did!     It was not a brush wash, but a pull through spray wash.  I had the hard top on and came equipped with several towels, and needed them!  I just wanted to see how bad it was.  I don't recommend anyone doing it.

Rodd
Pagoda Technical Manual
please contibute: http://www.sl113.org/wiki/pmwiki.php
1966 230SL
2006 C230 Sport Sedan

[mdsalemi]

quote:Originally posted by rwmastel

quote:Originally posted by mdsalemi

One would NEVER even think, in a million years, of taking their Pagoda into a tunnel wash...at least I don't think so.

I did!     It was not a brush wash, but a pull through spray wash.  I had the hard top on and came equipped with several towels, and needed them!  I just wanted to see how bad it was.  I don't recommend anyone doing it.

Rodd
Pagoda Technical Manual
please contibute: http://www.sl113.org/wiki/pmwiki.php
1966 230SL
2006 C230 Sport Sedan

Rodd, that's not the definition of tunnel wash.  A tunnel wash is at least 60', usually 80'--100' long.  There is a contraption on and in the floor called a conveyor.  The conveyor locks onto the front wheel(s) of your car and the mechanized conveyor pulls you through a series of arches that spray water and detergent, rotating top "brushes" that clean the top of your cars; mitters that go back and forth and clean the hood and trunk; rotating side brushes that do the sides of your car; sometimes specialized wheel cleaners, too.  Abrasive brushes have long been replaced by foam pads which are called "soft cloth" in the industry.  They still can beat up your car, particularly the rotating ones.  But they do a darn good job with little water and little detergent; friction is what cleans the car.

If your car moves during the wash process, that's a tunnel.  If it remains stationary, and the equipment moves around the car, that's an "IBA" (in bay automatic).  Most IBA's are touchless.  Some are friction.  Some newer ones are hybrid (both).  They typically fit in "bays" that are anywhere from 25' to 40' long.  The touchless ones use a lot of detergent (usually 2 kinds) and a lot of clean water (60-90 gallons per vehicle).

You are a brave man indeed, with expensive trim and aluminum body parts to go through the former (true tunnel); the latter (IBA), well maybe--only if the hard top is in place.

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
President, International Stars Section
Mercedes-Benz Club of America

[rwmastel]

quote:Originally posted by mdsalemi

If your car moves during the wash process, that's a tunnel.  If it remains stationary, and the equipment moves around the car, that's an "IBA" (in bay automatic).

It was a tunnel, but with no brushes except for the tires.  Just many many many power sprayers and a blow dry at the end.

Rodd
Pagoda Technical Manual
please contibute: http://www.sl113.org/wiki/pmwiki.php
1966 230SL
2006 C230 Sport Sedan

[mdsalemi]

quote:Originally posted by rwmastel

quote:Originally posted by mdsalemi

If your car moves during the wash process, that's a tunnel.  If it remains stationary, and the equipment moves around the car, that's an "IBA" (in bay automatic).

It was a tunnel, but with no brushes except for the tires.  Just many many many power sprayers and a blow dry at the end.

Rodd
Pagoda Technical Manual
please contibute: http://www.sl113.org/wiki/pmwiki.php
1966 230SL
2006 C230 Sport Sedan

Honestly I have never heard of a touchless tunnel, and have never seen any equipment for it!  Doesn't seem to make much sense to me; you put tunnels in to clean cars really well and really fast (some can do 80-120 per hour) and a touchless can't do that.  You put in a tunnel when you have the room to do so.  You use soft cloth because it is economical to do so; you use a fraction of the water and a fraction of the detergent than a touchless.

Seems that owner has created something for a specific market.  Certainly would not work around here where the average tunnel wash is about $4.

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
President, International Stars Section
Mercedes-Benz Club of America

[mdsalemi]

quote:Originally posted by rwmastel

quote:Originally posted by mdsalemi

If your car moves during the wash process, that's a tunnel.  If it remains stationary, and the equipment moves around the car, that's an "IBA" (in bay automatic).

It was a tunnel, but with no brushes except for the tires.  Just many many many power sprayers and a blow dry at the end.

Rodd
Pagoda Technical Manual
please contibute: http://www.sl113.org/wiki/pmwiki.php
1966 230SL
2006 C230 Sport Sedan

Honestly I have never heard of a touchless tunnel, and have never seen any equipment for it!  Doesn't seem to make much sense to me; you put tunnels in to clean cars really well and really fast (some can do 80-120 per hour) and a touchless can't do that.  You put in a tunnel when you have the room to do so.  You use soft cloth because it is economical to do so; you use a fraction of the water and a fraction of the detergent than a touchless.

Seems that owner has created something for a specific market.  Certainly would not work around here where the average tunnel wash is about $4.

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
President, International Stars Section
Mercedes-Benz Club of America