Mark's engine 'to pull or not to pull'

[glennard]

Note This refers to a reply posted by Mark280SL in Topic
http://index.php?topic=7677


Mark, The question seems to be a cosmetic, presentation thing.  Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder (or the judge).  Mechanically, doesn't sound like you have any major issues.  Item by item---1. Noise.  When a MB 6 is tuned right, valves adjusted, 150+ or - compression, fuel/air right, etc, it purrs like a kitten at idle with no vibration.  Decibels pick up at higher rpm.  2. Power  With good compression and tuning, power is adequate and should be near specs.  3. Dependability.  The MB 6 engine is up there with Toyota.  It is the other things, pumps, electrical, etc that are less reliable-just like all others.  4. Compartment looks.  Clean up, spray, paint, plate, etc. what you have before you pull.  5.  Excuses  Buy a Yugo, Pinto, or Mustang in addition.  Your excuse bag will be full.  
 Pulling the engine has its own hazards - dings scratches, etc.  Grease it, tune it, enjoy it.

[J. Huber]

Here are Mark's original reasons for pulling the engine...

"You ask a good question, here are my reasons for wanting to pull the engine. Tell me if you think I'm going off in the wrong direction, I'm open to all comments and suggestions.

Reason 1
The engine sounds very loud, sounds like a truck and I don't think the noise relates to the exhaust or something else, I suspect the valves at a minimum but just not sure, could go deeper. I will be sending it to the local Mercedes dealer for their evaluation/opinion though.

Reason 2
The guy I bought it from is a vintage car dealer, he said he was selling it for somebody else (they all say that)and he has 0 (zero) documentation on the car and knows nothing about the engine, thinks it is original but it is clear there has been a good bit of other work on the car. The engine seems to have good power though once it warms up.

Reason 3
At some point I want to be able to take the car out on a weekend afternoons for a long drive and I want the peace of mind that the engine is solid and dependable. Yes I know all kinds of other stuff can go wrong too but I like the comfort level of knowing I have a solid, strong, quiet, Dependable, powerplant under the hood.

Reason 4
I really like the idea of a restored new looking engine compartment under the hood, I want to open the hood and have it look the way it did when it came off the line and I'm willing to spend my time to do it. I think it is a worthy goal for a vintage car of this stature and not a totally frivolous pursuit. My 93 year old father will think I'm nuts but I'd bet a lot of guys on this site would like the same. I also don't want to worry about leaking fluids if I park in a friends driveway, or mine for that matter.

Reason 5
I like a project and an excuse to tell my girlfriend I can't go shopping with her on the weekend because I'm too dirty and busy from working on my car.

Let me know your thoughts."


James
63 230SL

[J. Huber]

Hey Mark, well my initial thought is, have the engine really tuned up correctly and analyzed by someone who knows our engines. It would only be after that -- if the engine is indeed shot -- that I would consider Metric Motors. Now, I believe Bob was in a bit of a different situation -- his engine was already out and he's going major on us! So even though his engine was decent -- he's doing the transplant.

RE: your reasoning...all your concerns make good sense but again several can possibly be addressed through a nice tune-up (good, consistent power, a modicum of reliability, and a more or less Pagoda sounding motor). Now, as for the sparkling engine bay -- you may never achieve perfection without pulling and replating everything -- but you'd be amazed what you can clean-up with the engine in situ. And believe me, you will be plenty dirty so shopping is out!

Lastly, you mentioned taking it to the MB dealer as a first step. I have reservations about this. Speaking from experience, and others might concur, a good independent Mercedes mechanic is often better suited to work on our cars. Less expensive and more experienced most of the time. You have to do some homework to find the right one.

Best of luck!

James
63 230SL

[rwmastel]

Everyone,

Mark is located approx. 80 miles north of Philadelphia, PA and 80 miles west of New York City.  You might want to provide ideas on service providers and possibly plan a get together in the spring/summer.  Oh, there is one.
http://index.php?topic=8185


Mark,

quote:Reason 1
The engine sounds very loud.

Get with other Pagoda owners and listen to their cars.

quote:Reason 2
The guy I bought it from is a vintage car dealer, he said he was selling it for somebody else (they all say that)and he has 0 (zero) documentation on the car and knows nothing about the engine, thinks it is original but it is clear there has been a good bit of other work on the car. The engine seems to have good power though once it warms up.

No documentation or history is the pits.  It makes you do everything as preventitive maintenance.  I recommend you perform the normal tests and maintenance.  Compression check, leak down test, replace (flush) radiator fluid, replace engine oil and filter, test for slack in timing chain, tighten head bolts, adjust valves, and all that other stuff.  Chime in here, guys!  Do you have an owner's manual?  There's lots of details in there on maintenance.

quote:Reason 3
At some point I want to be able to take the car out on a weekend afternoons for a long drive and I want the peace of mind that the engine is solid and dependable.

I would perform maintenanc & repairs as necessary the first year, meet other owners to share information and experiences, and just get used to the car.  Take shorter drives this first summer.  Once maintained and properly tuned they are reliable.

quote:Reason 4
I really like the idea of a restored new-looking engine compartment under the hood, I want to open the hood and have it look the way it did when it came off the line and I'm willing to spend my time to do it.

Well, that's a personal preference.  I suspect you can clean a lot of stuff without removing the engine, but to get an as-new look, you'll probably have to pull it, get lots of parts replated, install new wiring harnesses and relays, and a bunch of other details.  Tons of work, but if that's what is important to you then go for it.

quote:Reason 5
I like a project and an excuse to tell my girlfriend I can't go shopping with her on the weekend because I'm too dirty and busy from working on my car.

This fits in with Reason 4.  If that's what you want, then go for it.

Rodd
Pagoda Technical Manual
please contibute: http://www.sl113.org/wiki/pmwiki.php
1966 230SL
2006 C230 Sport Sedan

[Mark280SL]

Thanks Glennard,

You make great points and everything you say makes sense, I'm gonna first go the route of making sure everything is properly tuned and adjusted as you say but I have to admit my gut tells me there is something lurking under the hood that is going to bite me in the behind, I guess a 38 year old car and no documentation makes me feel that way.

I'll avoid sending the engine off for rebuild unless I have a valid reason. I still would like to do a good detailing though and feel like it will be hard to get it where i want with the engine in, need to see how the tests and adjustments turn out and go from there I guess.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by glennard

Note This refers to a reply posted by Mark280SL in Topic
index.php?topic=7677


Mark, The question seems to be a cosmetic, presentation thing.  Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder (or the judge).  Mechanically, doesn't sound like you have any major issues.  Item by item---1. Noise.  When a MB 6 is tuned right, valves adjusted, 150+ or - compression, fuel/air right, etc, it purrs like a kitten at idle with no vibration.  Decibels pick up at higher rpm.  2. Power  With good compression and tuning, power is adequate and should be near specs.  3. Dependability.  The MB 6 engine is up there with Toyota.  It is the other things, pumps, electrical, etc that are less reliable-just like all others.  4. Compartment looks.  Clean up, spray, paint, plate, etc. what you have before you pull.  5.  Excuses  Buy a Yugo, Pinto, or Mustang in addition.  Your excuse bag will be full.  
 Pulling the engine has its own hazards - dings scratches, etc.  Grease it, tune it, enjoy it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Mark
1970 280 SL

[cth350]

Mark, being north of philly and west of NYC puts you relatively close to East Stroudsburg, PA.  Talk with Augustin Aderin, who knows these cars well.  THough he's not a professional mechanic.

You might want to talk with Filipe at Precision Automotive in Rockaway, NJ if that's not to far for you.  Filipe is a veteran mechanic who can help you figure out what to do with the car.

As for detailing the engine compartment, that can be done with the engine in place, but it will require work and getting dirty. There's a reason why marines scrub things with a toothbrush (other than the glory of hard work and discipline).  A spray bottle of simple green and a few toothbrushes and other scrubbing gadgets from a dollar store can go a long way if you have sufficient elbow grease and are willing to do it.

Then again, you can always pay somebody else to do the dirty work and take your girl to a nice restaurant.  Explain to her that she's paying since you're broke from having somebody else do the work.

-CTH

[Longtooth]

fwiw, real peace of mind in a long drive (far from home) means an engine (long block) rebuild (Metric Motors, LA), and especially testing &/or replacing the major engine components - water pump, all rubber ---- hoses, belts, oil cooler, checking all fittings and clamps, and having an expert test and evaluate the injection pump.

While you're having that done, engine compartment refurb/restoration is in order... including paint, plating, etc.  

Even if you have this all done though something's bound to go wrong, but it probably eliminates anything major.  My intermittant new problems after all the above were, in order of occurrance:

 1. oil cooler small water leak --- crack in oil cooler.  Drove it hard for 100+ miles after I saw the leak with no further water loss nor any engine temperature increase.  Testing the oil cooler may or may not have detected this since I'd driving the car for ~3k miles after the engine rebuild.

2. clutch slipping in hard acceleration in 3rd & 4th gears (4 spd manual) --- replaced clutch servo cylinder.... adjusted it ... still slips some under hard acceleration in 3rd and 4th gears only, but a lot less.  servo cylinder probably needs to be adjusted more.

3. exhaust hanger's broke finally letting exhaust pipe drop and drag 50 yds before I could stop to find out what all the racket was from .  No harm done, cosmetically or otherwise.... but it took me awhile to round up some wire to hang it back up to get home -- a time consuming nuisance.

So.... something somewhat minor even with an engine rebuild is bound to go wrong  --- since Murphy rules of course, and with a 40 year old car murphy's going to be around more than with a brand-spankin' new one -- & especially if you're driving it on non-free-way roads and byways in the country-side, curvy & bumpy stuff like I do. Just make sure springs aren't sprung, shocks are in order, wheel bearings & races aren't old.


Longtooth
67 250SL US #113-043-10-002163
'02 SL500 Sport