Handling on the road

[Robert_F]

Hello All,

I am brand new to the group and have recently acquired a 1970 280SL from a neighbor whose family member had left it sitting for a while then did cosmetic upgrades on it, it would appear to be mostly original but I just don't know. It looks and runs well enough but it seems to handle poorly on the road. The ride seems soft and it does not corner well. When I turn the wheel it doesn't seem to respond as I would expect, perhaps it needs a wheel alignment? I would like to do something to improve the handeling but not sure where to start, the shocks look fairly new and I was told they are. What other things should I consider to improve the ride and handling could anyone point me in the right direction on where to start checking?

Thank you,

Robert

[franjo_66]

Hi Robert

These are the items that I replaced, and the end result was a dramatic improvement to my steering response & handling:

1) replaced tie rods
2) replaced king pin
3) replaced bushings on torsion/sway bar
4) replaced all rubber buffers/bushings & the subframe mounts on front & rear suspension
5) new outer & inner arm kits
6) New steering shock absorber
7) new idler arm kit for steering
My shocks were really good, so I replaced the mounting bushes & rubbers on both the front & rear
9) New drag link
10) New leaf spring kit for front

An expensive exercise but the results were more than worth it. I also at the same time, replaced the engine mounts (front & rear) which I feel helped add to the ride quality

Best Regards
Frank
1966 230SL Black/Auto/RHD
1996 E36 AMG

[mdsalemi]

Hi Robert,

Welcome.  Let me add the most obvious--tires.  Hold old are the tires on your car?  Do they match?  What size?

Do a search of the old thread "Tire Nirvana" and you'll get a lot of opinions on tires.

All the other items Frank mentions are very important but there's nothing more important than your contact patch!

Also, the car never handled like a "sports car" because it never was.  You'll never obtain the handling of sports cars of the era much less something modern, so keep your expectations in line with the reality of its design and age.

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
President, International Stars Section
Mercedes-Benz Club of America

[Richard Madison]

Not to contradict Michael, but wasn't it the superb handling of a 230 SL on Alpine roads that enabled the early Pagoda to win the Spa Sofia Liege race in 1963?

The 230SL was able to take the curvey roads at a higher average speed than the faster cars of the competition...the stick-to-the-road suspension and responsive steering resulted in the Mercedes victory.

To bring it down to today at sea level, when the car goes into a tight turn even above 60 mph, the car seems to hug a track staying level all the way in and out of the turn.

The Alpine victory was "sports car handling" of the highest caliber.

Richard M, driver of a 1969 280SL, a car with excellent sports car handling.

[Robert_F]

Thank you all for the insights and helpful information.

Michael to answer your question the tires appear almost new and the size is P195 75 R14 cooper steel belted radial is that correct?... and they are whitewall (should they be whitewall?)

Another possibility I considered is the fact the car has new upholestry, the vinyl type and looks great but I also considered the condition of the seats below may be bad and also are giving me the impression of poor ride, maybe I should research what to do with them as well. My regular car has a very comfortable interior and that could be giving me mixed signals so to speak, perhaps my first impressions are too expectational.

Frank, thanks for those tips, I'm going to check that all out , forgive the dumb question but what are kingpins?, I've worked on cars in the past, although not for years but I'm not familiar with them or what they do?

I also was thinking maybe I was expecting too much of a 40 yo car but Richards coments are very interesting.

I will begin to do my homework so as not to ask too many dumb questions.

Thank you all again, this is really great!

Robert

[jameshoward]

Robert,

I got my car about 18 months ago. It was cosmetically OK - a 12 footer if not a 10 footer. I have dedicated my limited efforts at addressing the functionality of the car. It needed some pretty serious work, such as new floorpans etc, which I did not do myself (to my eternal regret as the mechanic I used was a complete arse). With the help of a friend, we have replaced all rubbers, shocks, etc as mentioned Franks post. I would add the following points. First, tyres (pressure/balance etc) have to be your start point. I would suggest that unless you really think the tracking is clearly off, not to bother with that for now as you'll do it later when you've replaced things like shocks and other easy (cheap) bushes. If they're OK, shocks are next. They're a relatively easy job and any garage can do a test to see if they're shot or at what % they are functional. I used Koni classic asjustable shocks as have many others. They are - no $hit - adjustable and are stiffer that the stock Bilstein. If you have bilstein's already, the Koni's will stiffen the ride considerably. After that, you could look to the engine mounts. However, based on my experiences, I would not go mad ordering a ton of rubber bushes at this stage. For one, the cost adds up. Second, I've found that although my rubbers/mounts where perished, they were not so bad that they would have a dramatic effect on the ride; i.e. because a lot of the suspension ones are under pressure and surrounded by metal, some of which is aluminium (trailing arms) they suffer little damage. So, I'd go steady at first. Perhaps do some of the key things people have offerred and then just drive the car. Shake things up a bit and see what comes loose! (Which is a sort of 113 equivalent of the military axiom 'run it up the flag pole and see who salutes it.'

JH

[hands_aus]

Hey Robert,
welcome aboard.
http://213.239.220.84/start/index.phtml  *edit the site is SLS in Germany
The website above shows drawings of all the components of our cars as dismantled.
I used to sit and look at this for hours.
Hopefully you will find something of interest there.
Additionally, you would benefit from owning one of the Service Manuals (commonly know on here as the BIG BLUE BOOK, BBB)

Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto

[mdsalemi]

quote:Originally posted by 280SL71

Not to contradict Michael, but wasn't it the superb handling of a 230 SL on Alpine roads that enabled the early Pagoda to win the Spa Sofia Liege race in 1963?

The 230SL was able to take the curvey roads at a higher average speed than the faster cars of the competition...the stick-to-the-road suspension and responsive steering resulted in the Mercedes victory.

To bring it down to today at sea level, when the car goes into a tight turn even above 60 mph, the car seems to hug a track staying level all the way in and out of the turn.

The Alpine victory was "sports car handling" of the highest caliber.

Richard M, driver of a 1969 280SL, a car with excellent sports car handling.

Richard,

While few really complained or criticized the handling of the W113, it must be taken into perspective.

The "one-hit-wonder" win of the Spa race is fine, but if the car really were that competitive, it would have remained in some kind of racing agenda, but it didn't.  Not to take away from its accomplishment, but it was a one time thing.

In a Road&Track comparison at the time, our beloved 113 scored an abysmal .67 g on the skidpad. (The Porsche 911T was .782)  That's with the original Phoenix tires on the 113.  A new Pontiac G6 SEDAN scores about .84 these days! (n.b. higher=better)  A 1973 Triumph Spitfire turned .87g.  I suspect that other, more pedestrian "sports cars" such as an MGB or Midget were hovering around or above the .80 mark.

It's a great car that we all love.  But if anyone expects it to perform like a true sports car of the era (such as a 911 or even an E-Type) they would be mistaken.  And, Robert's issue might be not having enough period-comparison!  It's kind of misleading to come from any kind of typical daily-driver sedan today, thinking that you are driving a "S E D A N", and then get into a arguably mislabled "S P O R T S  C A R" that's decades old in age, and older in design, and realize your sedan is a better-handling than the roadster!

When I had my car restored, I spoke with someone on the west side of the state, and he gave me good advice: don't do it like he did.  (he prettied the car first, fixed the handling last).  What he recommended to me was to simply change all the suspension rubber and all the wear parts.  That I did.

Robert, your tires sound fine--it's not the "correct" size per se, but it is as reasonable a modern equivalent as you can get.  At least with the tire issue put away for the moment you can and should have all the suspension pieces checked out for wear.



Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
President, International Stars Section
Mercedes-Benz Club of America

[Robert_F]

Bob,

Thanks so much what a great resource, I have ordered the CD of the MB manual but this is great. I'm sure I will be looking through it for hours on end as well. Love it. Thank You again.

quote:Originally posted by hands_aus

Hey Robert,
welcome aboard.
http://213.239.220.84/start/index.phtml
The website above shows drawings of all the components of our cars as dismantled.
I used to sit and look at this for hours.
Hopefully you will find something of interest there.
Additionally, you would benefit from owning one of the Service Manuals (commonly know on here as the BIG BLUE BOOK, BBB)

Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto

[ja17]

Hello Robert,

These cars were designed to have gas filled shocks. Make sure the new shocks were at least a gas filled variety. Bilsein were original and are best for the original suspension, BOGE is another good OEM supplier.  Koni may be optimal for handling.  Many other makes are noticably inferior in my experience. Plain hydraulic shocks on these cars are a waste of money.

Welcome!



Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio