Rusty 250SL - Restore it or forget it?

[mrswirl]

Hi Folks - new to the forums here and would like to solicit your collective opinions.

My dad is finally relinquishing his beloved '68 250SL due to extensive rust issues in the floor.  This car is one of his dearest possessions - he bought it in '70 from the original owner.  It holds deep sentimental value to me as well as I learned to drive in this car many years ago.

The interior and exterior body is absolutely beautiful with all original parts. Mechanically it is sound (the engine needs flushing due to it sitting for several yeras but that is relatively easy to do).

The rust is really bad however.  The front floor pans are eaten through to the point that it is unsafe to ride in.  He did have some patchwork done but it is beyond that point now.  I haven't evaluated the full extent of the damage yet but I suspect it is worse than I can hope for.

Before he sells or donates it, he's offered to give it to me to either attempt a restore or part it out if that's what it ultimately comes down to.

I can handle the engine work but I am not a body man (never welded anything before).  I realize that the general consensus is not to bother with so much rust - and generally I would agree except for the sentimental attachment.

So, a few questions:

1. I see that K&K can manufacture new frame and body panels. To what extent can these parts be retro'd into the car?  At what point is it hopelessly rusted out? Should this even be attempted?

2.  If money were no object, what kind of ballpark am I looking at? $5K?, $10K?, $20K?, higher?

3.  Is it advisable instead to find a replacement car w/ decent body and swap the mechanicals?  I doubt that I will be able to find a totally rust-free car but how much rust is too much?

I don't mind taking on the project even though I know I am unlikely to get my money back out of it.  My preference would be to restore it and keep it in the family for my son to drive eventually.

Am I crazy to consider something like this?

As soon as I get the car into my garage I can post pictures if anybody is interested.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts/opinions.

[paulr]

This is an interesting question, and given that I haven't seen it here are my thoughts.
I suppose that to get an idea of budget you must consider what you would spend on a good car in the first place. In the USA the deals are amazing from a European perspective. So lets say $30000 for a good "rust free" example.
I'm no mechanic but it appears from the success that so many restorers here have had, that with the right tools, space and enthusiasm a good total restoration is very achieveable, but restoring cars like we do can't be about getting our money back.

If it's just the floor and sills then that's no big deal and should be easy to have done, with a new carpet thrown in it should be about $5000 ? I have a little rust, some damp and some old repair panels on my floor and will need to have it replaced for the MOT ( safety certificate ) and I expect to pay about £5000 for the same here in the UK once we find that the rust has crept up the door pillars too.

So, you could even buy a donor car and mix the two up and have a lovely car that you know and that has such a wonderful history. That's something you can't buy and I wouldn't even consider giving up and parting it out.

My opinion is keep it and repair. Get a really comprehensive report done, like a buyers report and then get your cheque book out.

If you do decide to part it out, I'll take the ashtray !

paulr
lovely 1970 280 SL

[jameshoward]

Welcome.

No one is going to be able to give you a really good idea of what you're up against until you can post pics. Moreover, you won't really know what you're up against until you've got enough apart to take those photos. (Expose floor pans and sills, look inside footwells, remove the vinyl covered moulded metal plates that go from the door jamb to the carpeted area of the softtop box and peer inside, etc)

If it's only floor pans, which I doubt, then the job is pretty straight forward. I had to replace mine and whilst it was done by a clown, it will suffice and the cost was the equivalent of about $1500 for the pans and welding. The cost goes up from there. The parts are available - look at www.sls-hh.de to get an idea of cost. (Hit the picture of the Union Flag (GB) and it's in English; you pay the lower tax free price).

I have some rust on my car even now. I would suggest that if the car means as much to you as you say, and if you are able to do the engine work, then you should be able to get it back on the road safely without breaking the bank. There's enough help and advice on this site already to enable a complete rebuild (the search function is good if you can get over the time out thing) and members are amazingly knowledgable and helpful.

Why not post some photos and see what people say? Until then no one is going to be able to give you much of an idea.

JH

[jeffc280sl]

Can you post som pictures of the rust?  Floor pans are pretty straight forward.  Are the fenders in good shape?  How about the lower firewall?  What is the condition of the inner frame rail, up where your left foot rests?  How about the area forward of the front jack hole on the outside frame rail?

Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed

[Mike Hughes]

When it comes to a family treasure, the money almost becomes a secondary consideration.  The real issue is are you willing and able to commmit the time and resources to put the car back on the road?  If so, then prioritize what needs to be done now and what can be done later, as well as what you have the talent to tackle and what you will have pay others do for you.  Is this going to be a full restoration, or are you interested in doing what needs to be done to get the car saftely back on the road for the enjoyment of your family and then improve on it as you go along?  Such "rolling restorations" can be very rewarding - plus you get to use and enjoy the car in the process!

Billy Thompson at White Post Restorations once told of a client who spent over $70k to have his mother's 1950's Dodge sedan completely restored.  While this was obviously far in excess of this plain-jane sedan's value then or even now, it was worth every penny just to see the look on her face when whe was reunited with the only car she ever owned until she quit driving.

When it comes to the work that you have to pay someone else to do, like maybe the rust repairs and painting, don't cut corners or try to do it on the cheap!  Do it once right and it'll last another 40 years.

- Mike Hughes  -ô¿ô-
  1966 230SL Auto P/S
  Havanna Brown (408)
  Light Beige (181)
  Cream M-B Tex (121)

[Bob G MN]

If there is a restorer in your area try to get an estimate.  Prices and quality can range all over but at least you may get an evaluation as to the work needed.  Where are you located.  Members may be able to suggest someone or take a look with you.
Bob

[psmith]

I just got my car back with the floors replaced.  I bought the panels from K&K and had a body shop cut out the old and weld in the new.  Here's a link to the topic I posted about it with some pictures.  http://index.php?topic=8072  There's also a link about halfway down to some more pictures I posted on Picasa.  

Check out bpossel's topic "restoration update" in the Body and Interior forum to see a lot of great photos of a car that's getting a complete restoration.

If the rust is in the floors, it's not too bad, but when it gets in the rocker panels it is more of a challenge.  paulr's estimate of cost was right on for my situation (rockers were okay).

Pete S.

[mrswirl]

Thanks for the initial feedback.  I'm going to pick up the car next week and bring it back to my garage.  I'll be able to post detail pics of the rust damage.

It's been several years since I last inspected it closely and from what I can remember, both floor pans are completely rusted through in the area where it meets the inner frame rails and I think areas of the outer frame as well.  You can see the road underneath. Not sure about the lower firewall area but I'm pretty sure the wheel wells themselves are pretty clean. The fenders are in great shape.

In discussing the matter with my dad, his mechanic was concerned that there wasn't much existing material left to weld on to - but I think he was talking about just replacing the floor pans only and didn't include replacing part of the frame rails.  Still, he considered it major surgery.

I certainly don't have the welding expertise to approach this on my own so I'll have to find somebody to work on it.  My plan was to get it in and start stripping it down to find out just what I'm dealing with.  I'm in Colorado BTW - so if anybody knows of a good person to work with in the Denver/CO Springs area please let me know.

Assuming that the rust is concentrated primarily in the floor pans and side rails, what is the process for fixing it?  I assume it's as simple as torching/grinding out the areas and welding in new metal.  K&K has replacement parts for what seem to be rather reasonable prices so I have to assume that the bulk of the cost will be in the labor and welding expertise.

I'm not as concerned about restoring it to pristine condition so I guess this means it would be a "rolling restoration".  My gut tells me it will be in the $10K range.

I realize nobody can give me an accurate idea until I can post some pics but is $5K-$10K in range with the description I gave above?  Is it possible to weld in new frame rails without compromising the structural integrity of the car?

[Khurram Darugar]

If you're not going to go pagoda specailist it may be an idea to figure out which part should be replaced in which order.  Proabably the supporting members first, sill and seat crossmember.  Upper sills might be reusable and help keep the car alligned.  Door to b pillar brace should be in too to conserve the door fitment and help hold the car in place.
Good Luck
Kay

Kay
Euro 280sl LHD Auto.

[psmith]

I think the Mercedes Benz Club of America is pretty active in Colorado, you might want to join and ask around for members that have had older cars restored.  What I found was that most modern body shops don't have the interest or skills to do this kind of work, you need to find someone that does restoration work.  

The process is to drill out the spot welds and remove the damaged panel.  Hopefully the remaining panel is ok, but if not it needs to be patched to provide something for the new panel to attach to.

Pete S.

[Shvegel]

Hello and Welcome,
Since I too faced a similar dilemma I figured I would chime in.

I purchased a 1970 280SL about 6 years ago that had sat for 25 years and had been "Restored" by a butcher in 1979 who chisled off the fenders and quarter panels and brazed new ones in their place. It also showed signs of extensive rust but the floor pans were clean. At the time it was $5,000 but it was what I could afford.

I rebuilt the mechanicals and began to drive the car and fell in love with it. I have owned over 60 cars and had always found fault in all of them but the 280 was different. Sure it had a few shortcomings but it was a hoot to drive and I didn't care.

This was where the trouble began. My situation improved financially and I had the opportunity to buy another 280 and I decided that the car I had was the one I was in love with. Besides I had rebuilt or replaced nearly everything on it and it ran perfectly. I love to roadtrip and I know myself well enough(I am a former BMW instructor and really picky mechanic) that if I didn't have it all apart and check and rebuilt it I wouldn't trust it and I wouldn't go far from home.

So now I am almost ready to start the project when I too relize I could find a rust free body and paint it and put my mechanicals in that body. Well, what I quickly realized is if a 113 has a truly rust free body it wouldn't be worth taking the thing apart and selling the body. Not to mention when the odd California theft recovery comes along you will still pay $7,000 to $10,000 for a body that still needs to be shipped to you, painted and very well might be ready to rust from the inside of the rocker panels anyway.

So I decided to fix what I had. As much as I would have loved to do the work myself I work outside the US for most of the year so I Signed a stack of blank checks, stuck them in the glovebox, called my good friend Rick from Duluth Minnesota, flew him in to Cleveland where I live and had him drive the car to Minnesota for restoration of the body.

I was excited at first. I spent alot of time on ebay picking up various bits and pieces for the project. The first check for panels from Mercedes was written for $6,000 and I didn't flinch. I was excited to see the progress and was a happy man.

Fast forward 18 months. My car is currently still in restoration. Admittedly I also decided to change a few things as well and ordered new Euro headlights, Bumpers without guards, seat covers(who new it would cost $2,000 to cover a pair of seats with pads), top and carpets but I am now about $18,000 in to a project I figured I could do for $15,000. The welding work is a little more than half done and the car still needs to be painted after that. The replacement front fenders from 1979 that I thought we could save need to be replaced so that is yet another $2000.

The work that has been done so far is flawless. Rick has really done his best to re-create the original look with correct spot welds etc. He has gone so far as to make special tips for his spot welder so the size of the weld is the same as the original. he had even built a stand for the car so the body sits on it's suspension mounts so whe it is fitted the dimensions will not change when it is set back on the floor.

All that is great but progress is slow. He has other projects of his own and he still does some other work that takes him away from home as well. I am now faced with the very real prospect of not having the car for another summer and Having to cough up another $10,000 before it is done. Luckily my wife has a don't ask don't tell policy and a New BMW on her side of the driveway.

Is it worth it? I am not sure. I will have invested about what a clean 113 is worth by the time I am done but I will have a car that has new fenders, quarter panels, rocker panels, inner wheelhouses, rear panel, trunk floor and all front structure above the frame rail. It may not be original and rust free but it definately will not rust for many years.

The downside is that now I will be afraid to drive it as much as I used to. It will be shiny and perfect and I doubt I will be comfortable walking away from it in a parking lot. I used to drive it to work every day with the top down from last snow to first snow and curiously I enjoyed it most when the temperature was in the 40s(degrees f) and I was bundled up against the morning frost.

I guess what I feel now is that it is still worth it. certainly not from a financial standpoint. Unless of course people start paying a premium for cars that used to be rusty but have undergone massive bodywork. What keeps me going is much more emotional than that. What keeps me going is that I had a chance to save a truly great car. that my 113 dodged a bullet and didn't end up in the crusher or in parts on ebay, that there is at least one more 280Sl that is going to be around for a long time to come.

Besides my wife made a vow to herself when we got married that no matter what happened to us financially I would never be allowed to sell the car. Not because she loved it so much but because I loved it so much. She's the real keeper.

 

[Shvegel]

I figured I would also mention that when you inspect the car reach over the front tires and up into the wheel well. At the top you will find a boxed in section. See what the top of that section feels like. It's a pretty common rust area and a really expensive one to fix properly.

[Eryck]

My two cents, and reading between the lines of your post, I'd vote for restoration. Money aside (which it never is...) you might regret not doing it and having to tell people in the future, I had that car, which my dad owned for many many years but...

In my case, I bought the car from someone else a few years back and still, there is a sentimental value to it.  I don't care how much I spend on the car because it's a life long thing.  It's the passion.  I don't even know how much I've spent on it to date and I intentionally avoid keeping a tab on it - ignorance is bliss....

I don't intend to sell it ever (yes, yes, everything in life is transient but...) so for me, it doesn't matter how much I spend on it because it's for myself!  

Try to get an estimate and don't look back.  Somethings in life are just not replaceable.  


1965 230 SL White Manual
Hong Kong

[doitwright]

I thought about your situation for a while before I decided to post.  Making decisions that relate to material objects that involve both emotional attachment and dollars and cents is very personal. Your decision will not be made by the comments and ideas you read here. It really comes down to what is important.  Whatever you decide will be right for you.

About a year before I bought my car I pulled into a Home Depot and spotted a green 280SL.  I parked next to the car and decided to wait for the owner to come out to ask him a few questions.  After he arrived he explained that he was the original and third owner.  He had bought the car new in 68, later passed it on to his son because he felt it was too rusty and needed too much work to restore.  His son eventually had the car restored and later gave it back to him as a birthday present.  He said he was more attached to the car now than ever before and they might have to bury him in it when he dies.  Now he continues to invest whatever is necessary to keep the car running as his daily driver.

Frank Koronkiewicz
Willowbrook, Illinois

1970 280SL Light Ivory

[dseretakis]

You mentioned before that you are capable of doing the mechanicals yourself but that you don't have the welding experience.  You are obviously pretty handy.  Welding is not all that hard.  Log onto www.metalmeet.com and you can learn all that is needed to weld sheetmetal and fabricate patch panels and more.  If the car has been in the family forever and you are attached to it and you have the funds to restore it then restoration is the way to go.  Sure, from a strictly economic perspective you will be losing out, but there are other things in life that drive us to do things beyond economics.  My brother bought a very rusty but complete 250SL last year for $3000.  He has never welded but he intends to restore the body of the car himself with my guidance.  
Dimitri

quote:Originally posted by mrswirl


I certainly don't have the welding expertise to approach this on my own so I'll have to find somebody to work on it.  

[mrswirl]

I was able to get my first good look at the damage today.  Overall, it's about as bad as I expected - better in some areas, worse in others.

Both frame rails are pretty shot along with the front floor pans.  The trunk pan is not so good either.  The worst of the damage appears to be in the rear frame rails leading back to the rear wheel wells.  The damage is concentrated in the corners where the pans meet the rails.

The wheel wells themselves are in great shape and the front left is pretty much pristine.  (it was involved in an accident in the mid-80's so this area was repaired).

The mechanic report indicates a clogged fuel system and possible rust in the gas tank so the engine will need flushing.  That is about the extent of all the mechanical issues.

The interior is about as good to be expected for a 40 year old car. Will need new seat leather and dash vinyl along with new coverings all around.  Soft top is relatively new and still functional.  Hard top has been in storage for years so should be pristine.

I have uploaded quite a few pictures to view the damage:
http://www.flickr.com/gp/19662394@N00/Gb1twv

So, what do you all think after seeing the pics?

[waqas]

Looks restorable to me!

Car looks complete, and body panels all look great (at least from the pictures). Floor panels are easier to do. The frame rail pieces won't be cheap (neither metal nor labour), and you'll need to find someone experienced enough to replace them without disturbing the 'straightness' of the chassis (panel/door gap lines etc). Also, K&K also manufactures the frame rail pieces connecting from the rockers into and around the rear wheel wells. As far as I know, these are better than the originals.

Again, not for the faint of heart, but very far from a basket case. You won't even necessarily need to get it painted immediately (in order to spread out the cost, of you prefer).

In order of importance:
- structural/chassis: make the car safe to drive
- engine/mechanical: get it running and drive it around
- paint/rubber-seals/interior: renew to your taste
- long-term maintenance: fine-tune and refurbish as the need arises

Look, I don't have anything to say others here haven't already said, but life is short, and the joy that comes out of fixing and keeping this car will be priceless for both you and your father. Don't hesitate, do it!

(Just do your homework, and find the right people to help. This website is a great start-- fantastic group of people here)

Best regards and keep us posted!

Waqas in Austin, Texas

[dseretakis]

Here are the photos of my brother's $3000 car that we plan to restore together.  It is in much sorrier shape than yours, so I say go for it.
Dimitri

[dseretakis]

The images were all under 256K.  I give up.

Admin: they all got there, including the numerous duplicate and triplicate copies you sent. Please in future observe file naming rules.

[Peter van Es]

quote:Originally posted by dseretakis

The images were all under 256K.  I give up.

That is because you are including SPACES in the file names.... Please everyone, read the instructions here carefully, especially the part on NAMING your file.

Additionally, when your first upload does not work, reread the instructions carefully. Do not try uploading the same file time and time again... they actually arrive on the server, where they sit and waste precious space: they are not linked to by any post, yet cost us lots of storage, especially now that I've raised the file size limit to 256K from 80K.

I need to go in and manually delete all these duplicates, which costs me a lot of time. So please stop doing this.

I've cleaned up and added your pictures to your previous post.

Peter


1970 280SL. Also known as 'admin@sl113.org' and organiser of the Technical Manual.

[Longtooth]

I read this thread yesterday, but debated whether to reply with my ha' penny worth.  After casually mulling it over for a day I decided to reply.

Let me be frank... despite what it may sound like to some.

The car's a rust bucket worth maybe $3k - $6k max as is, and I'm being generous I think.  It will probably be of greater value by at least another $3k as a parts car.... if parts are dismantled and sold to the right market (e-bay, or W113 websites) where buyer's know the value of the parts and their condition.  

One reason for the price being low as is, besides it being a rust bucket, is that it's a 250SL, not a 280SL, and I say this even though I own a 250SL and believe they should have higher value than the market actually gives them. If it were a 280SL it would be worth perhaps as much as $8k or $10k... as is.

One can argue with my estimates of value as is but it will be to no avail until the owner tries to sell it anyway.... then if I'm wrong, I'll love it.

Next... the value beyond the market price is soley sentimental, therefore whatever value sentiment has... which can be enormous, but don't confuse that with market value.

Let's say for example the sentimental value is sufficient to keep the car... then the question is how much one is willing to invest to take it from it's current level to some drivable level and eventually perhaps to a cosmetic level.  It won't cost a lot to get it to a drivable level... the greatest expense for that probably being in the work to take care of the rusted portions, with maybe another $1500  to $2k or so in engine and drive train, fuel system, brakes, tires perhaps... assuming rats haven't been at the harness. I may be underestimating here in fact, depending on who does the work and whether MB OEM parts are used or whether some others.

Finally to get it to a reasonbly comfortable level of cosmetic appeal, it needs a paint job and new interior ... you may be able sparkle up the MB Tex seats as is with no serious detriment to cosmetics.  I'm guessing the softtop will need to be replaced and someone should look into the storage compartment for the soft-top to see whether that's also rusted out.  

So, the work is either time spent + parts, or labor costs + parts.  In other words, to get it to some comfortable, cosmetically decent level with reliability will cost a pretty penny... say up to $10k minimum.  In that situation you have a $4k - $5k current value plus $10k to bring it back a bit or say $15k worth into it (I can't discount the current value since that's money you or your father would otherwise have for something else).

Now, my opinion beyond that is that to make it worthwhile to spend anything on the car at this point is to take it all the way... and you're talking $30k - $35k in expense, including long block engine rebuild by Metric Motors in LA ..... not a premier show car, but a true beauty and reliable transportation. Add this to the current value of say $5k and you're talking a total invested cost of $35k - $40k or there abouts.  

If you've got the money to spend to bring it back to this level, then by all means do it.  If not sell it for parts or to someone that can and is willing to spend the $30k - $35k it will require to do so.

Oh, and it's market value may be worth that when it's done, given enough time goes by, otherwise you'll have approx. $5k - $10k more into it than you can get at market value, best case.  

What I would be sorry to see though is an original 250SL 4 spd get botched up by a hack job.  There are few enough of the 250SL's around anymore as it is, and only a little over 5k were manufactured at all.  What I'm not at all sure of is whether there's anybody that want's to invest in restoration of a 250SL in the 1st place though.  Most of the market's interested in the 280SL's and to a lesser extent in the 230SL's.   Whether the 250SL's will ever garner the market I believe they actually deserve is another question.... my opinion on this is due to it's classic style with all the prior accouterments of the 230SL, but with the engine performance (not displacement, but net road performance in practise) and suspension (and modernizations) of the later 280SL.  In my opinion the best of both worlds --- since I don't prefer many of the changes and cost reduction items the 280SL's introduced. ... just my tastes, not to offend.            

Like I said, just my ha'penny's worth.

Longtooth
67 250SL US #113-043-10-002163
'02 SL500 Sport

[dseretakis]

I dont really understand why the 250SL is worth less than a 230 or 280.  It is not a lesser car.  It is significantly rarer than both other cars and has nicer trim details than a 280SL.  After all, aren't we the ones who should be to some degree setting the value of these cars?  And since we know that they are not lesser cars than the 280, then what is the problem?
Dimitri

[doitwright]

Since this post continues to draw much attention, I will add my 2 cents again.

Now that I see what you have, it is time for a reality check.  It seems hard for me to believe that anything with sentimental value would be allowed to decay to this point.  Ask yourself these questions?

If this car was not in my family, and someone gave it to me for free, would I be inclined to restore it?

If it were gone tomorrow, would I feel depressed or relieved?  If I felt depressed, how long would it take for me to get over it?

My guess is that it would take less time and less money (even if you had to spend some time in therapy) than to restore this car.

This is the kind of project that we have seen time and time again where someone with grand visions and no previous restoration experience gets involved, spends lots of cash then never sees it through.

If I were you, (and I am not) go to http://www.totalrestore.com/ and  order the DVD for $30. It is about a 230SL restoration.  If that does not spook you, then go for it.



Frank Koronkiewicz
Willowbrook, Illinois

1970 280SL Light Ivory

[mdsalemi]

quote:Originally posted by doitwright
It seems hard for me to believe that anything with sentimental value would be allowed to decay to this point.

Frank,

Been there and done that, so I can answer this question at least as it applies to me and my car.

The sentimental value is to ME, not to my deceased Uncle who was the PO.

It decayed simply because it was used.  We all baby our cars now, but when new it was driven.  Mine, 117,000 hard NY miles over 10 years.  By that time she was a shell of car, full of rust.  "I'll get to it", he said.  "I'll get it painted, next spring for sure".  Like so many other projects what got started was never completed; what was needed was never started.  In 1985, driven into the garage and never touched again despite great intentions.  Then he died in 1998.  THAT'S how things decay.

Yes I did the unthinkable.  I took a car from "crusher" to "Concours".  I didn't think about any financial issues, I just did it.  I'm glad I did.

But hey, that's just me.

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
President, International Stars Section
Mercedes-Benz Club of America

[doitwright]

Michael,

The point I am trying to make is that one needs to determine whether or not they have the intestinal fortitude to see such a project through.  The world is paved with good intentions but one needs to ask if they truely have what it takes to see it through.  A project like this could be an overwhelming endeavor or it could be fun.  It should be fun.  The search or hunt for the parts and the work itself is part of the experience as much as the satisfaction of the finished product.  I know you understand and appreciate that as many of the rest of us do.  But mrswirl is new to the group and seeking some direction from those with who have experienced the magnitude of the project.  As I said in my 1st post on this topic, he (she) will make the decision based on what is important to him (or her).

Frank Koronkiewicz
Willowbrook, Illinois

1970 280SL Light Ivory