W114 Gear Box

[Garry]

Has any one heard of a conversion of a W114 gear box to a W113.  Someone has offered to sell a 5 speed gearbox from a W114 but am unsure if it will adapt to my 208SL? Dont have the part number at this point but will post it when I get it.

Garry Marks
Australia
69 280SL Manual
02 320ML
05 A200

[jeffc280sl]

Garry,

I have a spare manual transmission and bell housing for my 280SL.  I'll be happy to provide some dimensions if that will help.

Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed

[Garry]

Jeff,
Thanks for the offer. Let me wait until either someone comes and tells me that it can/cannot fit, or my seller can get the gear box off the existing (Basket Case) car at which point I will take up your kind offer for the dimensions.

Garry Marks
Australia
69 280SL Manual
02 320ML
05 A200

[gary ensor]

Garry,
 The 5 spd from the  w114 is probably a Getrag G76/27-5 which has the shift levers on the sidecover which would cause clearance problems with the shifter and shifter linkage rods with the trans tunnel i suspect. I do have one of those transmissions that was bought for a customer with a  w108 automatic that we converted to manual. He got tired of shifting gears after about 6 months and converted it back to an automatic. The trans was new in the wooden box when i got it, so it's only been used less than 6 months and i think about 3800 miles.

Silverstar Motorwerks  
 206 Breezehill Dr
 Winchester,Ky 40391

[Garry]

The "Original Mercedes SL Restorers Guide" by Laurence Meredith at page 89 mentioned that the ZF 5 speed gear box was replaced with the MB G 76/27-5 five speed in May 1969 as an option.

The following photos are of that gear box that Gary kindly sent me of that model transmission.

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Download Attachment: IMG_0503.jpg
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Download Attachment: IMG_0506.jpg
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Can anyone confirm that it can be relatively easily adapted to fit the 280SL?

Thanks
Garry

Garry Marks
Australia
69 280SL Manual
02 320ML
05 A200

[mbzse]

quote:Originally posted by Garry

The "Original Mercedes SL Restorers Guide" by Laurence Meredith at page 89 mentioned...

This book is notoriously unreliable.
Thus, do not trust what is written in it. We have counted there to be at least one false statement on each page of this Meredith W113 book...  

/Hans in Sweden

(PS: The G76/27-5 was never factory fitted to any W113 car   DS)

[114015]

Garry,

Do a little search here on the site.
Commonly the Getrag 5-speed gear box is not usable for the 113, at least not easily.
Only the ZF was the only 5-speed option for our SLs.
However, our member Hauser here got his 280 SL converted with a 5-speed coming from a 108 or so.
I think to remember it was quite a bit of conversion work of his restorattion shop to get that Getrag under the tunnel of his marvelous 280 without destroying anything else what remained original.
I don't know whether the 108 5-speeds and the ones from the W114 are the same.

Best,

Achim
(Magdeburg, Germany)

[Raymond]

Garry,

I've had the opportunity to see and photograph Hauser's 5-speed conversion.  It is a Getrag 265/6 from an early 1980s BMW 5 or 7 series.  (There are at least 3 versions of 265s) Fernando believes it is actually a Bimmer drive shaft.  His conversion is a nice fit and does not appear to have altered the rest of the car.  The transmission in your car and the G 265 are top shifters.  The one in your photos is a side shift and would be a #@!*#!  :twisted:  to fit.  

There are a few of us who are preparing to do and document the G 265 conversion.  Be patient and stay in touch.  In the mean time, if there is anyone out there who is doing or has done this work, please e-mail me.

Ray
'68 280SL 4-spd Coupe

[Garry]

Thanks Raymond, Achim and Hans for your advice. I will shy away from the Getrag and will wait for some time to see if a ZF 5 that is as per my data sheet comes up for sale. I am in Itally for a few weeks next month and may do a bit of a hunt around the wrecking yards!!! Otherwise I will watch with interest as others try the 265 conversion.

Patrick Welte from Itally has asked that he get the Getrag gear box that I had found in Brisbane Aust. and I have put him in touch with the seller as he has been looking for some years for one to fit to his 280SE 3.5 W111 coupe so the search was good for something.
Thanks all
Garry

Garry Marks
Australia
69 280SL Manual
02 320ML
05 A200

[pagodino]

Well, I have made an adapter plate for the getrag 265. It is about 20mm and the Sealcover of the Getrag has a little be shortened. The rest fits to the original clutch parts. The prop-shaft are different from BMW (adapter or modified). The Gearlevel is easy to fit. The rubber goints t hold the box aare different, two little metal plates in front of the original plate under the car makes it fit to the BMW side supports (2).
The automatic kardan (driveshaft?) is nearly exact fitting. The km-couter has to be adapted with a little side transmition (04-0..

The G 76/27 5 is not useable. I bought a G76/27 A5 for my 3.5 Coupe (v8) in Australia a few days ago.

Ciao Pagodino

[Benz Dr.]

I worked on Hauser's car while Tom Hamilton was still the owner. As I remember, they had to cut the trans tunnel in a couple of places and make small covers to fit over the holes. The covers were cupped to clear those places that wouldn't have otherwise fit. It's that tight in there.
This trans used in his car has a different shift pattern with reverse up by first or maybe below first. The ZF box has reverse below fith fear and it has a syncro on it which makes it kind of unigue.

Driving the car is very different on a ZF 5 speed. On the regular 4 speed box shifting is very easy and really quite smooth. On the the 5 speed box there's a fairly strong spring that you have to overcome to push the shifter to the left into first gear. This would be about the same position as reverse on a 4 speed box. Many times I've seen drivers put my car into 3 gear not realising that you have to push the lever to get it into the first/second gear quadrant.
When the trans is cold you have to go easy shifting until it's warmed up. This trans uses steel syncro rings and they don't bite as well as the brass ones do. Oddly, reverse has a brass syncro on it.
The box only holds about one liter of trans fluid so oil level is critical. I'm planning on trying some special synthetic non slip fluid to see if it will help with a weak 3rd speed syncro.

All 5 speed cars use the 4.08 rear axel so the car will pull really well. On my car I start in second gear at a level stop because it will jump hard off the line otherwise. All the gear ratios are different in the five speed box and I think they're a bit higher. 5 th gear is about a 15% overdrive so shifting into high gear will lower RPM's by about 500. The car has plenty of power to pass at speed and climb pretty big hills if you're moving along at a good rate to begin with. I rarely ever down shift to 4th looking for more power.
The 5 speed can add some milage to your car as well as reduce engine wear and noise levels. I get 10 KM per liter in my car.

If you are lucky enough to find a 5 speed trans make sure you get the bell housing with it because it's a ZF part. Shifter linkage and drive shaft is different but can be modified from regular parts.

[waltklatt]

Hi Garry,
Having the 220SL diesel with the 5 speed manual, I can give you a bit of experience.
What they say about the side shifter assembly is correct, but I've been fortunate to be with a 1985 W201 4 cylinder diesel motor with the 5 speed Getrag unit from the same car.  They entire assembly practically drops right in with some modifications.  I have not done any hammering or bulging out in the tunnel area.  The only hammering was done on the subframe carrier to clear the oil pan.  The side shifter on the Getrag is pretty tight, but you can bend the outrigger tabs toward the driveshaft someways.  That's what I did.  The clearances are very tight, but I'm not taking this car to an autocross or rally, just your garden variety good weather cruising.
The gear changes are very crisp and smooth.
Make sure the linkage rods are long enough.
Walter
1967 220SL-diesel

quote:Originally posted by Garry

Has any one heard of a conversion of a W114 gear box to a W113.  Someone has offered to sell a 5 speed gearbox from a W114 but am unsure if it will adapt to my 208SL? Dont have the part number at this point but will post it when I get it.

Garry Marks
Australia
69 280SL Manual
02 320ML
05 A200

[Benz Dr.]

I have a 5 speed box from a 190E not sure if it would work on this car or not without the engine to go with it. Maybe a 16 valve in front of it?

[Garry]

Thanks Dan and Walter,

This thread was resurrected by Pagidino a couple of days ago.  In my hunting for a 5 speed ZF I found a G76/27 A5 here in Australia that he wanted for his 3.5 Coupe and had been looking for a couple of years. I note that he has now got it from Oz.

Am about to change my 4.08 axle to a 3.46 as an interim and continue the hunt for my ZF 5 speed.

Dan, I asked about the ZF parts that were on Ebay to keep as possible future spares when I do find a gearbox and the guy quoted about $500 to ship them home!!!  Offered him a lesser amount after the end of auction than he was asking to compensate for shipping but no deal. The bell housing was not available in that lot.

One day I will find one, meanwhile....

Garry

[Benz Dr.]

Oh yeah, you HAVE to get the bell housing. It won't work without it. ZF casted them in sand which on small runs is far more cost effective than die casting. They only made about 1,400 units for MB of which about 850 were installed in 113's. They also came in 108,109,111 and 112 cars.
 I once saw a 300SE Cab with a 5 speed at the Meadowbrook car show. MB brought it and the guy said they only made 3 of them. Now that's a rare car! Try and find a bell housing for that one.....

[pagodino]

Hi Garry, after several mails and contacts with our Aussie friend, the 5-speed V8 Gearbox arrived this day. The mercedes archives said it was never in production but only made for prototypes. I think it was like now by Mercedes these days, if you were an important customer they fit a 3.5 with this box which comes now under my 280 SE 3.5 Coupe (full optional). So the revs will drop a little at speed at the speedway but it will pull better than with the automatic.

Looking for a ZF is nearly impossible, or the cost is too high. A conversion to Getrag 265 or Tremec is much cheaper and the spares are available. The Hauser Car has a Getrag 265 which was adapted from a AMG shop. In Germany there was Fred Laufer (AMG) who made the conversion of W113-108-107 with 6 or 8 cylinders. In Germany, the shop called "Stickel" offers a full conversion with a new bellhousing but for too much money for my taste (9000 EURO). A mod with a 20 mm spacer is a easy job.

I made a CNC program for the plate, it is watercut and fits perfectly to the oilcase of the Getrag and 4 hole position of the MB Bellhousing. It has to be drilled and the bolts fitted in. If used for 6 Cyl, the Bearing guide at the oil seal in front of the Getrag has to be shortend to use the original MB-Parts. For the V8, it will work with a different BMW Bearing.

In any case, thank you for the tip with our friend in Brisbain, hope I will see you the next time in Italy!

Saluti Pagodino

[Garry]

Glad to see someone has gained at least something from my searches for that elusive ZF gearbox.

Car currently in the workshop getting a 3.46 rear end fitted.  Had to get new brake cables from Germany and were they expensive. Single highest parts cost item in my restoration. But I had one win. I was able to order the number plates "PAGODE" from our State Registration Office today. Appears who ever had them gave them up.

Caio